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10 person raids?

Discussion in 'WildStar General' started by EvilPeppard, Jun 24, 2013.

  1. FairyTailisBack

    FairyTailisBack Cupcake-About-Town

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    How are they going to share a lockout?
    They are completely different instances.
    Its impossible.

    Either, 20 mans are stepping stones (aka easier content with lesser rewards) or they remove most of the incentive to do 40 man raids.
    You simply can't have both!
    Also, didn't the devs say that 20 man raids could be used as stepping stones?
  2. AcidBaron

    AcidBaron "That" Cupcake

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    20 man raids are stepping stones, some still question this but only those who are hoping in vain for it to be equal to 40 man raids.


    I see a lot of "why can't we all have what we want? Why does 10 man raids hurt you?"

    Ignoring the obvious point what happens if we make loot equal across all forms (look at WoW and it's disappearing 25 man raid guilds and 10 man guilds that don't last longer than 2 tiers)

    Reality makes it so we can't all get what we want. Everything takes time and money to make, and those resources are finite.

    The idea is to make people form larger groups again but also be more dependable on each other, so yes you're going to have to go out your safety zone and talk to strangers again and even play with them in a mmo, what might be a shock for some of you who have only been playing mmo's a few years.

    The idea that finding 40 people too hard is a not a valid argument in my book, i come from a time where you had groups form 3 to 4 times that size, in a time before WoW, so before mmo's became mainstream and before things got made a lot easier to group and organize.
    You're simply are going to have to socialize and build up connections beyond your 5 best online friends and some random dudes/dudettes.

    Nothing of this is hard to overcome as long you treat it as an mmo and not a lobby based online game.
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  3. FairyTailisBack

    FairyTailisBack Cupcake-About-Town

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    Brett Scheinert, Dungeons Lead, and Chris Behrens, Lead Systems Designer

    "We agree with the tweets that there are pros and cons for every raid size, which is why we are approaching dungeon and raid design to accommodate as many styles as possible.

    For Raids, we're going to have the big ones that some players out there are nostalgic for, and players participating in this tier of raids are expected to be the best of the best. These tough challenges will require significant coordination to overcome, but the rewards will be worth it. That's not to say we won't have smaller raids as well, because we understand that the logistics of the big raids can be tough. Therefore, we have every intention of accommodating smaller guilds & groups.

    Dungeon instances will be much smaller than our raids, but will be no less interesting. There will be leveling dungeons, elder game dungeons, and veteran versions of the leveling dungeons, so that even at level cap, players can fight through their favorite content and earn desirable rewards for their level.

    We want everyone to be able to experience our group content, hence the need for dungeons and raids of all shapes and sizes. Since these experiences are integral to our "Elder Game" plans, we are putting a lot of effort into making them sing. Thanks for your feedback!"

    http://www.wildstar-online.com/en/news/uplink_analysis_raid_sizes.php
  4. SkubaStew

    SkubaStew New Cupcake

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    I think for smaller guilds you could just team up with another guild for progression. Make a sort of an Alliance. So for the day to day stuff you have that close knit group.

    That way 40s man do feel more epic, as you are teamming up with a fellow guild and seeing and talking to people you dont always get to. Seeing which guild has the better healers or better range DPS. Makes a bigger community.

    P.S. Love this thread lots of good discussion
  5. Golfik

    Golfik New Cupcake

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    I can see how getting people to go 40 man raids is a good thing ... we get more people together, "bigger" effort and once you down that boss then you feel that much more epic.

    For me its a slight problem. Due to life commitments I can't start raiding (WoW, SWTOR) before 22.00. So in both games i was getting a team/group for 10 or 8 man content so that we could do a progression late at night. Most people played as they had same time issues as I did. Some played with us as they just liked the atmosphere of our group.

    But if in Wildstar there is no 10 man raids, I will feel like I am loosing out as I will not be able to join a group on progression if all 40 man groups will start at 19.00 or 20.00 and i think it might be hard for me to sit on the bench every night waiting for someone to get DCed or to be really bad so they replace him.

    I would love to be able to do 40 mans, but for some this might not be possible. I love how Wildstar looks and I will definitely play it, but if I will not be able to raid Elder Content then i am not sure how long I will last ...
  6. FairyTailisBack

    FairyTailisBack Cupcake-About-Town

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    Idk where you live, but its not that difficult to find a guild that runs later hours.
    I live on the east cost US, so its easy for me to find West Coast Guilds that raid late at night.
    Aussies raid times are usually late as well.

    I am unsure of your schedule but playing on the EU server is always a possibility too.
    It will increase your latency by about 100 ms though.
  7. AcidBaron

    AcidBaron "That" Cupcake

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    If there's a lot of people who can only play at odd times, than perhaps the solution would be those to band together and play at those odd times.

    People will have to reach out and organize i'm honestly not too worried about it, people think because there's no 10 man variation they won't have group content, that's not really true cause otherwise it would be the case for 25 man raids as well and people also had kids, wives, jobs, annoying and demanding real life friends, good for nothing family members who call you at odd times and so forth.

    10 man raids actually splinters a community, i'm personally surprised that people often only look at what 10 mans provided but not at what 10 mans actually took away.

    I remember in WoW back when 10 mans just made their introduction but it was a lesser rewarded form, you had social groups forming inside big guilds.
    We had people raiding with raiders in 25 man content on other days, we had cross guilds group setup, they reached out to us we to them to fill up the few remaining spots for social (more relaxed raid groups).
    And in other MMOs even before that 10 mans made their introduction, people simply grouped up and formed bigger guilds, you actually out of need wanted to join a big active guild and this just seemed natural.

    That all disappeared overnight when things got equalized, guilds had people leave them and splinter of in smaller groups, those groups when faced with lack of people had no more support around them their previous big guilds gave and they just disbanded.

    And so your server started to look like there was a lot of unknow guilds with no identity and they all acted liked small islands, intentionally isolating themselves in my view.


    Either i missed it but i'm surprised people either didn't notice this or never really stood still by the negative impact that shrinking the size of group content actually does.

    So i much rather have the game force me back into that old way.

    tl; dr. Interesting (negative) evolution 10 mans caused upon the gaming community in mmo's raiding scene.
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  8. Witless

    Witless "That" Cupcake

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    20 mans are not stepping stones. You do not have to do them to do 40. If you were required to do them then they would be stepping stones. And I hope no one expects the gear to be as good, it will be great to continue and advance through 20 man raids.
  9. Platelet

    Platelet New Cupcake

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    @AcidBaron Its a good point that you make about the impact that downsizing raids has on a community as a whole. It becomes a vicious cycle of fewer players required for end game content, therefore less people are active within a guild which creates a less active community and less social atmosphere. Pretty soon you find that people log on to raid and log off as soon as its over, so for 95% of the week these 10 man guilds are essentially completely inactive. In the wider sense, you get a server which is populated with hundreds of 10 man guilds all lacking identity, as you said, all of whom just go about their own business. In the past there might have been 10-20 big guilds on your server and there was mutual recognition of those guilds that had comparable progression, and a healthy pinch of competition to go with it. This kept raiders motivated to strive and be better.

    Regardless of this, people will continue to argue for the convenience of a smaller raid format, and I appreciate that there are many legitimate reasons for this. However, I thoroughly believe that having a larger end game format with a suitable stepping stone (in this case 20 man raids which will precede 40 man) gives the game life and longevity. From what Carbine have said so far it sounds as though they appreciate that there should be some form of character progression for those that don't have the required resources for raiding, so there should be something for everyone to do at endgame without having to dilute raiding for the community as a whole. As has been said multiple times in this thread and by Carbine developers alike, there are currently plenty of MMOs that cater to the 10 man raiding crowd. I'm looking forward to WildStar for that difference, and I believe there will be a richness to this game that is lost to many others because of it.
  10. Golfik

    Golfik New Cupcake

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    @AcidBaron,

    Reading your post i can see where you coming from and you are making very good points. I do hope that large Raids will do that and WildStar community will be much more united and there will be more social aspect to the game. Small closed groups are great when you are all on, but as soon as one or two people can't make it - its a struggle.

    I play EU zone and I wouldn't mind playing with guys from US east cost, but your 18.00 start would be like midnight for me :) can't stay till 3-4am as I am going to work at 7am ;)

    So i have to look around and hope to find some guild that will do 20 or 40 man runs late at night. If i can't find one like this - then I hope there will be enough ENJOYABLE content for single or small group play like Dungeons etc.

    I really hope Wildstar will be this great MMO that we all can love and enjoy
  11. Platelet

    Platelet New Cupcake

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    As far as I'm aware it hasn't been confirmed whether the 20 man raids will serve as stepping stones or whether they will be designed to run in parallel with the 40 man raids. My interpretation had been that it would be a stepping stone format but again that isn't based on anything official, please correct me if I'm wrong.
  12. Zyd

    Zyd Cupcake

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    I like more the 20/40 man system than the 10 man, people need to get used to be vocal and group up with other people to achieve goals.
  13. FairyTailisBack

    FairyTailisBack Cupcake-About-Town

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    That is too much content to create when the focus of the game is 40 man raiding.
    This has been stressed countless times by the developers! :)
  14. Pmizzrym

    Pmizzrym Cupcake-About-Town

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    People really need to give 40 mans a chance. Your experience in 2005 is 1 of 100,000 people, unique to your server, your friends, and your own self.

    If you think 40 mans aren't personal, you haven't played them before.
  15. AcidBaron

    AcidBaron "That" Cupcake

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    Good to see i'm not the only one who actually noticed that :)

    As for it being stepping stones, I think it will be a case of like WoTLK in WoW.
    You didn't need 10 mans to progress in 25 man. It did gave you an edge as that content gear was generally a bit above the previous 25 man content.

    So here i speculate it will be the same case, so some will run 20 man along 40 man but others will completely ignore it. However it's different content, but i do think from an organizer point of view they won't force you to run 20 mans if your main focus is 40. As you'll simply won't have the tanks for it to form two groups on consistent basis.

    I'm fine with this as it provides a testing bed for new members and the chances to host those odd saturday raids again with the social side of your guild. What when well organized was a nice melting pot of both hardcore raiders and social players who both gained something from it.


    Also are 10 mans really a convenience? Due to the smaller roster when i ran a social team it was hard to rotate plenty of people in on a fair way. And nowadays i think every 10 man group has at least one person that has either a healing or tank spec for that matter but also a viable DPS spec.
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  16. Pmizzrym

    Pmizzrym Cupcake-About-Town

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    Way too well thought out and accurate for this thread.

    Good perspective ol chap.
  17. Witless

    Witless "That" Cupcake

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    This was said much better than I have been saying it, thanks.
  18. Jarinolde

    Jarinolde Cupcake-About-Town

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    The developers have mostly been talking about 40 mans because 40 mans are such a hard sell for the MMO community nowadays. People do 25 mans in World of Warcraft, and 20 mans in RIFT, and similar sizes in other games. They know people will do 20 mans, they don't really feel the need to talk about it.

    It's not that I think 40 mans aren't personal (I just believe they're less personal), it's that 40 mans offer challenges I'm not interested in. 20 mans on the other hand do offer challenges I am interested in.
  19. AcidBaron

    AcidBaron "That" Cupcake

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    With personal you mean, personal contribution to a raid and not feeling like just dps number 10?

    First off, personal contribution depends on encounter design, In some cases your contribution and your correct execution of things are more important on a small scale than a large scale raid as there are mechanics that can wipe an entire raid due to the mistake of one person, and that's not per se the tank or the tank healer.
    (reason some content is harder in 25 and somethings are harder in 10 and why nobody can find a consensus which type is harder due to it being based on the encounter)

    The other is social interaction and making yourself important, We had channels setup that plenty of people discussed things in and nobody was simply a number, especially not if you contributed in those channels.
    There's generally a lot more going on in terms of chat in the background in a large raid than there's in a small raid.
  20. Warruz

    Warruz Cupcake

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    Il post something similar to what i said on MMORPG.com regarding raid size.

    The nice part of 10 mans was that you knew everybody and you knew them all well, with a 10 man grabbing a group of friends to raid was fairly easy thus the experience would be more enjoyable as you playing with people you like.

    Once you bump that # up that happens less and less, you know less people, you have people with differing views, and drama is more likely to ensue . If you have been in a room with a large amount of people, you would notice everyone goes off into their little cliques and the same happens in a large raiding environment.

    One thing i clearly remember in WoW with 40 mans was Stepping Stone guilds which became a problem. Essentially guilds would be forever stuck at the same tier because the guild in the tier above would poach guildies from the guild below as they where already geared and it was a never ending cycle. Part of this was due to no additional way to gear up, but it was also do to the shear size of raids at the time.

    Just in terms of WoW, the time where my Friends list was at its fullest and most active was during BC and particularly doing heroics. They where small and initially provided a challenge so your list grew while working with a small group of who to add to your friends list. You then take that friends list and say "hey gets go do kara" , it was a natural way to build a community.

    Meeting people is one of my favorite parts of MMO's as i have meet a few people that i am RL friends with today due to MMO's but they where never through 40 man raiding. My problem is that 40 man go to far in the other direction in that effort, they go to a point where they become to big and become more of a business in hows its set up then friends playing together to reach a goal. It is a unnatural way of building a community because your not building it on if personalities mesh together but on a personal goal that requires others, much the way a business functions (we all know we dont get along with everyone at work, there is always someone). You simply arnt playing with all friends at that point.

    If my options are play with friends or acquaintances the choice is simple and im sure its a simply choice for most if not all people.

    Another example would be back in MC days. We had our raid all in TS and for the most part not many people talked because there was just so many people, talking would result in just madness. So it was just officers talking on TS giving direction and talking between each others with the occasional comment here or there. If you are familiar with TS there is a function that allows you to privately talk to who you want. So what would happen is you would talk with your little clique during the raid rather then talk to the raid due to the sheer amount resulting in still having that smaller group you better associate with.

    My point is i would rather play with people i actually want to play with and know which simply isnt possible in such large raid groups. Such groups are bound to form smaller groups within such a large group, this ends up usually causing some sort of problem.

    Personally i think 20 is a sweet spot, its big enough to feel epic and small enough to know everyone.

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