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10 person raids?

Discussion in 'WildStar General' started by EvilPeppard, Jun 24, 2013.

  1. Woke

    Woke Cupcake

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    Pretty sure every game does what you want, WoW being the biggest example. This is the first game in a while that actually shows some love towards the 1%, 5%, 10% or whatever percentages it is now of Hardcore/Semi Hardcore Players. If you want Normalized Rewards and Smaller Raids you already have a Large list of MMOs.

    The counter to your Irony point is that people with your mindset say that Smaller Raids/Groups are harder than Larger Raids, yet time has proven if you normalize Rewards between all Raids, people choose Smaller Raids or Groups. If they really were "harder" then why would everyone choose them and are able to complete them? Simple because they are convenient and are actually easier. I have debated this several times on different threads so I won't go into to much detail "yet" unless necessary.

    Every Raider is different, they all Raid for different incentives so you can't really generalize them. Basically every Raider has three general areas they like about Raiding. Progression, Rewards, and Fun. For each Raider these three areas vary, so if a Raider told you that he/she doesn't care about the Rewards (loot) at all and you took them serious, then sorry you may be somewhat naïve.

    The reason why people lose there heads over this topic also varies. Some do simply want the best Rewards, however some simply want the Rewards as a symbol (Trophy) of competitiveness and achievement which fall into the Progression and Fun areas. If you normalize rewards, you are also gravely diminishing the Striving Incentive players get when they see someone with harder to achieve Rewards.
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  2. Convicted

    Convicted Super Cupcake

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    this is more because of disgust than any other reason, if you removed all the raids except for LFR and world bosses, and world of logs tracked the world bosses, then you could apply your quote to that situation.

    "even the 1%, all the top guilds are now world boss only because its the path of least resistance"

    It might be technically true in that scenario, but it doesn't mean that the new age of raiders now consist of only people interested in world boss fights on the difficulty level of current wow, its that they aren't interested in a raiding environment which disgusts them.
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  3. Neurotic Cucpake

    Neurotic Cucpake Cupcake-About-Town

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    It's a good thing, then, that I'm talking about my hopes for this game, not any others.

    Strange, I don't recall saying that at all.

    Of course, you just made my point about "if you normalize rewards between all raids, people choose smaller raids or groups." Why, exactly is that? Aside from, you know, your assumed position that they're easier, as opposed to people just prefer smaller groups or have less difficulty getting 9 friends together rather than 39. (Which, I suppose, counts as "easier." But clearly not in the way you implied.)

    Debate it all you like. That doesn't make your opinion any more correct than anyone else's.

    When only "1%, 5%, 10%" of people do something, yes, you can generalize the behavior. That's what the word "generalize" means, in fact. It doesn't apply to everyone. There are outliers. But it's still the general impression given.

    Speaking of irony...

    Gotta love it when people generalize about other people in the same post they complain about people who generalize.
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  4. Neurotic Cucpake

    Neurotic Cucpake Cupcake-About-Town

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    It's amazing how I say all these things I never said.

    That said, if so many people preferred that style and that style only, why has it died out in so many other games? Curious, that.

    And speaking of naive, if you really think that the majority of those people who've signed up for the beta did so because of the prospect of 40-man raids, well... nuff said in that regard.

    Also, could you please show me where I asked for them not to have 40-man raids? I asked for smaller raids with equivalent rewards. Why would that affect you in any way, shape, or form? Afterall, people are clamoring for 40-man raids, right? So nothing to worry about.
  5. Neurotic Cucpake

    Neurotic Cucpake Cupcake-About-Town

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    Again, more things I never said or requested. Is my command of English really this poor?
  6. Inv1cted

    Inv1cted Cupcake-About-Town

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    I never said you said that?
    I was making the point that when you design an encounter around 25 players you can make the encounter mechanically more challenging (as there are more people to do more things at once) hence make it drop better loot then 10s.
    When you have to scale between 10s and 25s all you can do is inflate the numbers which speaks to the point you made about equitable gear dropping from different raid sizes.

    Just as an aside snarking at me when I was making an entirely fair and neutral point just because two other posters flamed you so you feel attacked doesn't really help your argument.
  7. Dasphunk

    Dasphunk Cupcake

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    "I doubt there will be, because that's just hardcoded into developers for some strange, mystifying reason" is what you said, so what are you talking about?

    Because 40am raids were never implemented in any other mmo, other then EQ(higher than 40man), and they still have it.


    When did I ever say a majority went for 40mans? Please re-read the statement you got that drivel from.

    Again, where did I say that? Please re-read the statement you got that drivel from. It doesn't effect me in the short term/immediate time , but it will affect the developers, by making them work on three different sets of raid progression. That is overwhelming for them. This will cause them to spread their time to put quality work into the three raids, which in the long term, lessens the quality of the raid boss fights, diffuse/normal/specular maps, quality modeling, mechanics, QA testing, etc, which then affects everyone.
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  8. Woke

    Woke Cupcake

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    It is a good thing then that your hopes in this game are hopeless based on the information we keep getting. It simply amazes me that you have so many MMO options with Small Group/Raid focus and Normalized Gear, yet you want to infringe on the only option that goes against the cliché Convenient Casual MMO.

    You mentioned both so if you are not able to recall simply go back to your previous posts. In your first post you mention 10 mans being harder, and in the post I quoted you mentioned having comparable Rewards which is basically beating around Normalized Rewards.

    Harder examples for Larger Groups- Teamwork, Mechanics, Numbers, Time and Timing, Communication, Less Control, Less Convenient. It is beyond easy to get 9 other good players and down 10 man content. I don't see any examples on how smaller is harder...and once again like my first post, I am fine with 10 man content but it should be Group Content and not Raid content. The clear time on 10 mans are insanely short and accomplished by so many guilds, yet they are harder? Hell I barely remember wiping in 10 man content. My guilds simply broke up into two 10 man groups and cleared it in one night and those runs were Alt runs, Drunk runs, basically the non serious runs and were cleared in one night but are hard?

    Sorry if I came off wrong or if you came up with the wrong idea. I was talking about you Generalizing "All Raiders" having only one incentive when Raiding and that being the Rewards. I was simply stating that there are other areas that Raiders Raid for. Example: One Raider likes Progression > Fun > Rewards, while another might like Rewards > Progression > Fun. You might of understood a little better if you read my last paragraph.
  9. Ico

    Ico Moderator • WSC's Gentle Flower

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    10 man raids did get mentioned by one of the marketing dudes this weekend at Rezzed. However, I've read other bits of info to the contrary so I think we'll just have to rule it as unknown until we actually see them :p
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  10. Ellianar

    Ellianar Cupcake-About-Town

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    I don't think, i will ever get seriously involved in a 40 men raid guild or group, why?

    I feel 40 men raids are, in an extremity, similar to a zerg fest, that means you can bring 5 useless DPS in your group, you will clear the content anyway because it doesn't require enough skill from EACH member of the raid. It feels as dull and dumb as zerging a boss.

    Another point is group integrity, you simply can't get to know 39 persons enough, a quote from a well known character :

    I don't know half of you half as well as I should like
    and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve.

    Such a guild require way more than 40 people to make sure, you re always able to go on a raid, about 60 active people i would say. So you ll know your officer, maybe 10 other people you can make special bond with, finally you can say you know 20 people from your originaly 60.

    Oh wait did i say 20? Pretty intented in fact :p, as of now i can only picture myself in a 20 men structure, i feel in this more limited format you can actually form a bonded group. ( As i did with my 25 men raiding guild back in WotLK )


    TL;DR I will be a 20 men raider, maybe testing 40 men to see the content but not more.
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  11. Ico

    Ico Moderator • WSC's Gentle Flower

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    I think you're taking a lot of presumptions based on older tech and content creators who were far less experienced than they are now. I do agree though in general that your margin for personal error tends to go up as raid size increases, I also feel that's (in current mmo's) countered by smaller raids tending to have much easier timers/dps targets etc etc.

    Let WS launch and lets see what Carbine can do I say. Because STL is one of the earliest dungeons and it looks pretty insane.
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  12. Finnwe

    Finnwe New Cupcake

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    I would like to see 10 man dungeons, now that would be awesome. Not as complex as raids, but do able with good pug group.
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  13. BlindSear

    BlindSear Super Cupcake

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    Battle of Thermopylae, Francis Marion (and the Rev. War), The Alamo are just a couple of REAL epics that happened. None with small groups. Thermopylae, 7000 vs 100,000(ish); Rev War Colonies vs the main country; Alamo, 13 day war with 100 or so people.

    As for many fighting one, 10:1 isn't really any better than 20:1, so your argument really doesn't hold any water. Being that 10 would be closer to the equivalent 20 man raiding size. I don't know any games where 10 is the upper bound limit for raiding.

    Also, you know how one person takes down an Elephant without a gun? They stab it once, good in the heart with a spear, then they follow it for days until it drops dead of its own accord. Does that sound epic?

    Why? Because they went through the same trouble and headache the 40 man went through? Because they deserve the reward or because they feel entitled to that reward? I'm not planning on 40 man raiding. If I have other stuff to do that I'm happy with, I'm not going to feel bad that someone who went through the extra trouble of getting a team of 39 others together get better rewards than I do.

    Why do you care if they get slightly better rewards or look cooler? You've said it yourself you don't want to go through the trouble of the logistics and you just want to play with your friends. This means you get to be a clique and never have to invite others to your "static" group which is bad for the community. 40 man raids mean people will have to invite others more readily in order to get enough people in, then they can cycle through the ones that don't make the cut, giving more players the chance to raid legitimately. 10 man raiding has a good feel to it, but it's not nearly as good for the game nor is it as difficult if the fights are tuned accordingly.

    If 40 man raiding is actually as hard and requires just as much personal input from everyone, it'll be fine to give them better gear in order to take care of the content that they're doing.

    You simply want whatever you want and expect to be given it because you're entitled. Have you earned the equivalent gear as the 40-man raid group? No, because there's a lot more work going into scheduling for 40 people and the logistics. If you can simply get the same gear for doing something easier, why wouldn't you?

    That's what happened in WoW, they made 10 man equivalent to 25 man, and the 25-mans died. Bigger raid sizes help the community by providing a sense of awe, wonder, and mystery about the game for those who aren't raiding, and motivates them to try it. It also allows a larger DPS:support class ratio, and everyone knows there's many more DPS than Support classes actually played in any given MMO.
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  14. BlindSear

    BlindSear Super Cupcake

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    Why do you want a game that copies the others? Also, you can have intimate groups within the 40 man raid, being that they're much more modular. (Such as the healers sticking together, or the ranged DPS)
  15. Infamouz

    Infamouz Well-Known Cupcake

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    That just aint true anymore. 10 mans were easier when they were designed to be easier, like they were in WotLK.
    I absolutelly hate LFR system, with burning passion but the one good thing it did for wow was giving people who have no place to raid even normals something to do in Endgame. This made it possible for Blizzard to design harder normal content and harder heroic content. It also made it possible for blizzard to design 10 mans to be as challenging as 25 mans.

    I have played Throne of Thunder on 10-man Heroic and 25-man heroic and I have to say 10 man version is way more ruthless. The DPS limits are still as hard as 25-man, tanking is even harder as you can not take 3rd tank for fights and actually end up at times solo tanking fights that were meant to be duo tanked. Also just because no room of error in 10 mans, boss tries tend to be shorter and progression slightly slower, as often when you have learned a phase and someone dies in that phase, wipe is called instantly. You can not waste your only Battle Ress on a phase you already learned.
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  16. Ico

    Ico Moderator • WSC's Gentle Flower

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    Fair play, I never got MoP and quite before Firelands on Cata, however up until that point 10 mans were primarily a joke that we'd just farm to bring our gear level up if we needed to.

    That's my biggest concern that bigger content becomes easier as everyone can just gear up in the smaller raids.
  17. BlindSear

    BlindSear Super Cupcake

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    I don't think this is a problem if the smaller content is harder, but I think the bigger content should be harder, therefore give better rewards. But the rewards are there to meet the content, not to say "this snowflake has finished the raiding, look at how special he is." More of "This guy wiped on a boss endlessly for hours to get these couple pieces of gear and he's still wiping to bosses attempting for his full set. He definitely needs the gear to get past this raid and into the next."

    I think the rewards should meet the content, not giving out rewards so everyone feels special and makes them want to do the content.
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  18. Skippy

    Skippy Well-Known Cupcake

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    Did you ever raid Kara back in the days before people made progression on Gruuls / SSC / TK and so on? progressive kara was challenging and incredibly rewarding. the only thing that made it a ''joke'' was when people started entering there with substantially better gear and people knew the fights inside and out. 10 mans in wrath were a complete joke, as the gear you got there was dwarfed by that of the 25 man gear so the 10's were trivial as the gear there was made useless extremely fast.
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  19. Ico

    Ico Moderator • WSC's Gentle Flower

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    Oh lord. I can't believe I said that, I've edited my OP. Karazhan is the be all and end all of what 10 mans should of been! Even ZA had a good challenge in terms of difficulty and bonus content (the bear). It seems like WoTLK and Cata have jaded my memory awfully...

    In all fairness I think a lot of it lies not on the size of the raid, but the raid being design to be A. Interesting and B. Designed for one group size. In my honest opinion none of the 10 mans I played post TBC were worth the time I spent in them.
  20. Infamouz

    Infamouz Well-Known Cupcake

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    Karazhan is one of the raids I have best memories about. It was the first raid I ever did, a raid that teached me hard lessons of the MMO genre. Zul'aman was hard because of ruthless numbers. Like I have said I have found four ways to balance raids, numbers, space, time and tempo. Zul'aman had quite ruthless numbers and tempo at times, but but the raid it self was not that interesting for me. Bear runs were more fun than whole progression in ZA when it was fresh.

    WoW's inherited problem is that the game engine nor the game it self was never designed to give any other end game content than Raids. Like Ghost Crawler said, back in TBC and Vanilla people were satisfied just by doing quests and grinding rep. Nowadays if you would launch a game like TBC was, it would be huge economical catastrophe. People demand more nowadays and that is problem with WoW. If the game engine absolutelly does not support other kind of endgame than raiding and PvP to some extend, how you can keep the 99% of the people paying the game, and still keep the raids excusive and hard and prestigeous for the 1% of the players? Ansver is; you can't and that is why Patch 5.4 is going to have already six different dificulty modes and even more people prancing in the same looking gear in Stormwind.

    What I am trying to say is that 10 mans can be made just as challenging and just as hard as 25 mans or 40 mans, if the company gets to do so while still keeping majority of their playerbase happy as they have other things to do. Wildstar seems to have plenty enough content for everyone, 200 hours exlcuding elder game.

    I personally do not think 10-mans can ever be as epic and glorious as bigger raids are, as you can only fit so many nerd screamers, and weird and funny guys in a 10 man group.

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