1. Hey Guest! If you're more than just a WildStar fan and want to keep up on the latest MMO news, reviews and opinion pieces then I'd like to suggest you visit our sister site MMO Central

10 person raids?

Discussion in 'WildStar General' started by EvilPeppard, Jun 24, 2013.

  1. Alverad

    Alverad Well-Known Cupcake

    Joined:
    Feb 25, 2013
    Likes Received:
    285
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Location:
    London, UK
    No need for sarcazm ;) It was a good raid, but by no means epic in my eyes. Similarly, I loved ZA, even more then Kara, yet both of those felt more like an awesome 10men dungeon then a raid, at least in comparison to Molten Core/original Nax.

    Obviously we are all different, and do not have to share the same feelings towards different game content, but think I'm safe to say, that the moment 10men raids came into play, large scale raiding started dying, for the sake of convinience.

    I'd love to have multiple sizes of raids, however, there is a slight technical problem.

    In a standard WoW 10men, you had 2 tanks, 3 healers, 5 dps - in a 25 men, 2-3 tanks, 5 healers, rest dps. How do you scale your team up, without forcing people to perform roles they might not enjoy, simply because you need to accomodate for a proportionally diminishing number of healers/tanks. If you'd like to progress through 10/20/40, you'll be merging teams as you go. And it wouldn't be pretty. Can't imagine an 8 tank encounter either ;).

    Now, sharing a lockout for 10/25 proved rather disastrous for the WoW raiding scene, and I doubt any dev would willingly follow that route now.

    I would've personally prefered a 15-30 ratio, as I do agree 40mens are a bold step in the current MMORPG climate, and my personal opinion and the fact that I like big raids doesn't mean everyone else does, and it won't encounter some resistance.

    But I can't help but be happy that this game is focusing in a big way, on large scale organized PVE activities. I find the introduction of a 10men would jeopardize that, based on what we've seen happen in WoW.

    So there, I enjoyed my time in Kara, ZA, later on in 10 men ICC, but there is something so much more rewarding when you not only complete the encounters, but you know you've done so with such a big organizational effort. I'm weird like that :p

    Also, I like people, the more the merrier. 40 men on TS is awesome :D
  2. Shavark

    Shavark New Cupcake

    Joined:
    Jun 26, 2013
    Likes Received:
    4
    Trophy Points:
    3
    Location:
    Moriches, New York
    An interview yesterday (11:15) Time to be exact.

    If what he said was true, 40 mans will be the only raids (At the moment). I'm guessing it will be 40 mans for a while, until they get everything they want in the game. I see them eventually catering for a lesser group such as 10-15-20-25 etc.
  3. Kritarie

    Kritarie Cupcake

    Joined:
    Jun 4, 2013
    Likes Received:
    35
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Having raided both 10 and 25 man raids in WoW at a high level, I can say that I enjoy 10 man raids, but they're not really raids. They're glorified dungeon groups. The biggest group size should be the only competitive outlet.
  4. Ellianar

    Ellianar Cupcake-About-Town

    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2013
    Likes Received:
    128
    Trophy Points:
    43
    Location:
    France
  5. Shavark

    Shavark New Cupcake

    Joined:
    Jun 26, 2013
    Likes Received:
    4
    Trophy Points:
    3
    Location:
    Moriches, New York
    11:15 is the time aha, sorry. I edited it in for others!
  6. Mierelle

    Mierelle Cupcake-About-Town

    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2013
    Likes Received:
    92
    Trophy Points:
    28
    Location:
    Sweden
    from 11 min, "the thing we trying to start first with is 40 man"
    though he doesn't exclude 20 man raids at launch as have been hinted long time ago.
    Kataryna likes this.
  7. Ellianar

    Ellianar Cupcake-About-Town

    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2013
    Likes Received:
    128
    Trophy Points:
    43
    Location:
    France
    Yes he never said or even hinted the fact there will only be forty men raid at launch, he only say they're designing 40 men raid first, and as the interviwers say, it is easy to go down when the larger format is good :D
  8. Shavark

    Shavark New Cupcake

    Joined:
    Jun 26, 2013
    Likes Received:
    4
    Trophy Points:
    3
    Location:
    Moriches, New York
    Hm, great point. The interview was yesterday. And if they do play to do a 2013 release, and they're still focusing on 40 mans. I'd be pretty surprised if they shipped out 20 mans on launch as well.

    Although he didn't exclude it, it seemed like a big *wink wink* to me.

    If they plan on making the raids as hard as possible out the gate. I feel like 20 mans won't be out until a future patch.
  9. Mierelle

    Mierelle Cupcake-About-Town

    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2013
    Likes Received:
    92
    Trophy Points:
    28
    Location:
    Sweden
    It would suprice me if they don't already have conceps, models and such for 20 man raiding. If 40 man testing prove that they got the balancing right of the bat, they wouldn't need heavy testing on the 20 man raids, plus it's much easier to pull 20 people out of a 40 people testing group to test 20 man bosses than it would be to jam 20 people into an existing testing group and expect the same results.

    I would prefer the old aproach where with limeted testing, sure you get scenarios like C'thun but I rather have that, then the raid bosses already having best tactics and over analysed before they are even released.
  10. BlindSear

    BlindSear Super Cupcake

    Joined:
    Mar 18, 2013
    Likes Received:
    565
    Trophy Points:
    113
    This logic is flawed. How many 25 man raiding groups have fallen apart in WoW? That seems to be the issue, no one will take the time or the effort to build something awesome if you don't give incentives to do so. So, yes, 10 man raiding getting equivalent gear would kill raiding. I think 10 man "elite" dungeons would be a good compromise, dungeons are gonna take at least an hour if not more. If they had an elite dungeon which required 10 people and took 2+ hours to complete, would you have an issue with this?

    The big issue is that players aren't able to motivate themselves to do anything that takes "more work." And why should they? If you give an easy out, they're going to take it. (Look at "hardcore" guilds in WoW a bunch of top 10 world guilds have gone down to 10 man raiding because they don't want to deal with the "headache" of people they don't like, and people they don't want to carry.)

    Is this a bad thing? Absolutely. Now there's a bunch of mediocre guilds made up of the people who are too picky to allow everyone to play. If someone's a little annoying, or slightly worse they simply will just not add them to the roster, instead of creating need for players to raid. That need has to be there for a successful raiding community.

    Sure, this disrupts the 10 man groups, in that they have to find other things, or does it? What will eventually happen is people will realize Circles are awesome! So, you'll slowly be able to find some good raiders, maybe another 10 man group that's looking to raid at the same time. Possibly you don't like that one, so you try again with a different 10 man group, eventually you get a circle that's just of raiding people that you can then eventually recruit from of people you know who will let you down the content.

    Insisting on 10 man raiding means you just want your clique and not to be inclusive of others, this is terrible for the community in general. It means the people who are out there looking for a raiding group never have a chance to join yours. Stop being greedy, meet some new people, or get out. 10-man raiding has already killed WoW's community (with the help of LFR), and if you say that WoW's community is awesome then why are you leaving?

    Circles will help fix the problem of 10 man groups trying to find others, there will be plenty of 10 man groups that are entire groups, why not start recruiting now for people you think you might like? Don't ruin our community with your cliques, high school sucked, why continue that idiocy?

    It's bad for the community. DPS is the highest played role of all roles in any MMORPG, that can't be refuted. 10 man raiding means 50% of the raid group will be PURE dps. On the other hand 20 man raiding, means 60% of the group is PURE dps. With 40 man raiding you start approaching 65% PURE dps. This means that larger raiding group's compositions more appropriately match the player base population ratios, giving more chances for everyone to raid in the role/spec they like.

    On top of this for a 10 man you might need 1 person or 2 people on reserve, while 40 mans you'll probably have 10 people that you have on reserve, meaning more people get the chance to actually raid with a decent group. The chances in a 40 man that someone doesn't show up is higher, due to them feeling like they aren't needed as much, so those reserve players actually get to play more often as well. In a 10 man you'll just kick someone if week after week they don't show, because calling a raid because you're missing 1 or 2 in a 10 man is inconvenient, but calling it if you're missing 1 or 2 in a 40 man is simply unacceptable.

    Real number reasons which point to 40 man being better for the game than 10 man. Also, if you're still raiding with your 10 friends, you can still be a group within the larger raid group. In fact it's better that way, because then you actually have a modular team that's ready to go and already works well together. This is how 40 mans will likely be composed due to actually needing class and role officers again for organization.

    10 man content will kill 40 man and 20 man raids if the rewards are the same, just like it always has. Why spend the time trying to find extra people who are good enough when you already have a group of 10 who are past amazing? Answer, you won't. Look at Dream Paragon, they liked the 10 people they were raiding with, and didn't recruit anymore because of that.

    The question is why are you so bent on killing off large group content?
  11. Cartographer

    Cartographer Cupcake-About-Town

    Joined:
    May 28, 2013
    Likes Received:
    60
    Trophy Points:
    28
    Location:
    UK
    Gotta say, at time of release it was hated.
    It was horribly tuned with brutal gear-check bosses that were virtually impossible to get the gear for (they upped the ilevel of the drops to counter this) and trash with insane respawn rates (the post curator trash run to shade took 45 mins, allowing you 2-3 wipes on Aran before starting to clear again... great)
    Kara was only loved once people out-geared it.
    Kataryna likes this.
  12. BlindSear

    BlindSear Super Cupcake

    Joined:
    Mar 18, 2013
    Likes Received:
    565
    Trophy Points:
    113
    They're getting ready to start testing 40 man raiding soon for tuning, so they're pretty much done. I think they can create some 20-man raids and get it tested within 3-6 months (depending on launch date doubtful they'll launch before 3 months).
  13. Malorak

    Malorak Cupcake-About-Town

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2013
    Likes Received:
    146
    Trophy Points:
    43
    Aye. A 10 man raid involves more skill of single players because as we all know - if one DD dies, it can get close :I
  14. Mierelle

    Mierelle Cupcake-About-Town

    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2013
    Likes Received:
    92
    Trophy Points:
    28
    Location:
    Sweden
    This is once again a comparison of encounters with a single or very few mobs, a well tuned 40 man encounter could mean you get overrun by for exable waves of trash just by losing 1 DPS.
    Malorak and BlindSear like this.
  15. BlindSear

    BlindSear Super Cupcake

    Joined:
    Mar 18, 2013
    Likes Received:
    565
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Yah this all comes down to tuning. It's possible that in 40 man raids you're limited to losing 1 person or no people.
    Kataryna likes this.
  16. mysticjbyrd

    mysticjbyrd Cupcake-About-Town

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2013
    Likes Received:
    71
    Trophy Points:
    28
    Completely depends on the encounter really. Some are harder with lower numbers, and some are easier.

    I remember doing C'thun back in the day, and the whole raid was split into small groups. Lose one person, and it was really hard to come back. One mistake and everything just spiraled out of control. When my guild was doing it we would call wipes, which meant everyone intentionally die, after a few seconds into the encounter. That is just how brutal it was. Needless to say only a handful of guilds in the world actually beat this <REDACTED>!
  17. Neurotic Cucpake

    Neurotic Cucpake Cupcake-About-Town

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2013
    Likes Received:
    87
    Trophy Points:
    28
    Oh good, someone finally said what I've been waiting to be said the entire conversation.

    The actual question -- the real question -- is if 40-man raiding is so desired, so lusted for, and oh so very popular, why does this concern even exist? Surely there wouldn't be any trouble finding a group of people who'd kill to do this. It's fun, right! It's epic! It's the best thing ever!

    Or, in reality, is it just something most people tolerate because that's where developers put the carrot at the end of the stick in order to force people to tolerate it?

    Yeah. I thought so...
    Strange. While sure, there's always people who hate anything you can think of, I have minimal recollection of that being the general consensus. It was considered hard (but, pfft, that's impossible; everyone knows 10-man raiding can't be hard) and you had to do a lot of work just to get your foot in the door, but the actual encounters, the lore, and the fights were all considered to be great. Frustration at not being able to take out some of the bosses on your first shot (which, again, simply can't be as 10-man raids are just easymode dungeons according to people in this thread), sure, that existed. But I don't remember very many people saying they hated the place. Maybe the circles you were in at the time were skewed, but it wasn't my experience at all. What was loathed, however, was Molten Core and the other 40-mans.

    (And no, you're not a unique snowflake when it comes to being around during that time. I've been online since the late 80s, I've been playing online games since TW2 (I was a regular on Apokolips), and I was in WoW within the first month of it going live. Not to mention Everquest, Neverwinter Nights when it was still on AOL, and many, many other multiplayer games. So, yeah, I remember all these things, too.)
    Blegvad, Sol and The Duck like this.
  18. mysticjbyrd

    mysticjbyrd Cupcake-About-Town

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2013
    Likes Received:
    71
    Trophy Points:
    28
    The thing is people are lazy and will almost always go down the path of least resistance. You are essentially arguing for a simpler path. However, the simpler path is not always the best path. Look at WoW today. It is absolute trash! Why? Because they kept adding in the simpler paths, and now the whole game is little more than a loot pinata. It is still insanely popular though, but the path of least resistance isn't the type of game we want, and its not the type the devs of Wildstar plan on making as far as I know.
    Woke, Black Wolf and Mizpah like this.
  19. BlindSear

    BlindSear Super Cupcake

    Joined:
    Mar 18, 2013
    Likes Received:
    565
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Things that are good for the community aren't necessarily popular. That's what my point is. 40-man raiding is good for the community, not popular. That was never my claim. And no it's not lusted for, but it's certainly wanted. There's an outcry to bring it back, but try motivating people to get better at a game and show up on time for raiding if you don't properly incentivize them. That's simply not going to happen.

    You claim people just take what you say and put words in your mouth. Don't be a hypocrite, read what I wrote, the entire post. Nothing about popularity, it's to make the community healthier and more connected. How often do you let someone else join your 10 man static raid group? On the other hand 40 man raiding turnover is high, so it allows more of the community members more of a chance to do it, to get into it, and to stay if they want.
    Kataryna likes this.
  20. Cartographer

    Cartographer Cupcake-About-Town

    Joined:
    May 28, 2013
    Likes Received:
    60
    Trophy Points:
    28
    Location:
    UK
    At the start of BC the big "issue" was the downsizing of 40-man guilds to 25-man raid groups, we were assured it would be a simple matter of recruiting a few people and running two groups. I never heard of this actually happening, anywhere. Kara being the entry level raid made it even worse, you couldn't just take two runs and amalgamate them for 25-man ('cus the other two raids in T4 were 25-man), you were 5-men short. It caused a lot of grief.

    Basically, I'd say you were looking back at it through rose-tinted-nostalgia-specs, Blizz forums, MMO champ, Thott etc. all had people complaining about how badly tuned it was, how hours spent clearing trash was not enjoyable for 2 (3 if you're lucky) attempts on a new boss. Blizz subjected it to numerous nerfs, assured the community repeatedly that they were looking at it and then bosted the ilevel of its drops as well as heroics' to compensate and get people through it. Once badge gear was introduced and groups could be carried by one well geared tank, one well geared healer and 2-3 well geared dps, it trivialised it. Hell, I remember when they finally let us CC the mobs before the Opera! " Mobs immune to CC and taunt who ice-block the highest player on their threat table (so, the tanks then) and go and beat on someone else, great.
    Kallor likes this.

Share This Page