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10 person raids?

Discussion in 'WildStar General' started by EvilPeppard, Jun 24, 2013.

  1. Malachi

    Malachi Cupcake-About-Town

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    I do have to say that I totally get how WoW has overly simplified the MMO, and I understand players who crave content that requires actual coordination in order to run it. I really do miss the days of WoW when it was actually a big deal to have made it into a raid; it wasn't something you could just queue up for on your own and probably faceroll without any difficulty. The LFR system has destroyed what WoW used to be since nobody needs to be a part of a guild or any organized group of people to see all of the content anymore.

    I do think you could solve the problem of "why do 40-man when you can just do the 10-man" by rewarding significantly better gear from the 40-man. Perhaps you could choose not to award achievements for 10-man kills and only reward them for 40-man kills. I'm sure there are other creative ideas out there to accomplish this.

    But I do think I understand your point. There would still be gamers who don't care about the gear and just want to see the content, and they wouldn't participate in 40-person raids because of that. I do yearn for the days of MMOs requiring teamwork to get things done, not the loot pinata that WoW has become. I just also yearn for the days when I could run a raid with some of my closest friends in the game and be able to talk freely and say what we want, something that you can't do if you're in a 40-person talk channel. You can't not do the 40-person talk in the same channel because people would miss call-outs as a result...you need to be in the same channel.

    So I don't know. That's why I'd like to at least see some content geared towards smaller groups.
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  2. mysticjbyrd

    mysticjbyrd Cupcake-About-Town

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    I got no problem with 10 man groups. I just think they should be tuned to be easier and have lower quality rewards.
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  3. Cartographer

    Cartographer Cupcake-About-Town

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    While it's a bit of a slippery slope argument, if you start saying people should be able to form small groups and see all the content, where does it end? At some point you're going to have to accept that part of an MMO is the first "M" and that you should be looking elsewhere if you only want to play with a small group of people, or only stick to content that is aimed/advertised as such?

    Much like levelling up, gathering your gear and choosing your skills, interacting with other people, often large numbers of other people, is part of the point of an MMO experience and it baffles me that people want to skip it.
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  4. BlindSear

    BlindSear Super Cupcake

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    So, that's why it'd be an awesome compromise to have 10 man elite dungeons. That way 10 man groups could still have something to do, but the raiding should be for the larger groups trying to do something more.

    In other words if you wanna play with just your friends, fine, but if you wanna play the hardest content in the game, you're going to have to go searching for some new friends.
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  5. Cartographer

    Cartographer Cupcake-About-Town

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    I loved UBRS back in the day, 10-man dungeons were awesome.
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  6. Mizpah

    Mizpah Cupcake-About-Town

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    Just to say that I agree with the comments from mysticjbyrd above.

    Content needs to exist for all player types and styles, but that is not the same as saying that ALL content needs to exist for all preferred playstyles. I already see 20 man raids as the 'smaller group raids', and 40 man raids as being the playstyle that some of us have been waiting for the return of since the demise of Vanilla WoW. Is bigger 'Better' and smaller 'Worse' via some mystical yardstick ? Of course not, aside from perhaps peoples personal preferences. Are we everybody ? No of course not - but now we finally have a game once more drawing a line in the sand about raiding, content and risk vs reward. There are those of us who would like to fiercely defend that choice, and for me that means rejoicing about the potential of 40 man raids, and wanting to not see raid content (and the risk reward paradigm) being diluted by the introduction of smaller group raid compositions.
  7. Witless

    Witless "That" Cupcake

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    The bolded part is the crux of the whole issue really. To me there is no way around it. I prefer SMG content so naturally I would lean to a 10-15 man raid. The primary reason for this is logistics. I don't like logistics, I don't want to have to wait or worry about a large amount of people. I prefer the smaller scale for the much smaller effort needed on an aspect that is not playing the game. If it could be proven that the actual content is more difficult for 40+ then I might buy into it being harder, but it can't.

    I remember dying to the Brood mother in our 70+ man raid a number of times before we were able to have Innoruuk spawn and then dying to him. The encounter was a blast. When we were firing on all cylinders as a raid it was awesome. What wasn't awesome was the logistics involved each time for running the raid, or after a wipe. That is what eventually turned me off to large raiding. I also remember specifically how Epic it felt in 10 man Naxx at the 4 horseman when myself (feral druid) and a Holy paladin would hold Zeliek and Blaumeux's attention until the rest of the group finished off their horseman. Until we perfected this we wiped, which, while sucking, was relatively easy to bounce back from and get into the content again.

    To me logistics should never be a determining factor in difficulty. That should always be left up to the content.

    As you stated and I agree : "Execution is the part that an individual can only do for themselves, and must rely on others to do their part as well. Tuned properly, the difficulty of this is equal no matter the size of your raid group".

    So I would love to see them rethink the 20 man raid like they are rethinking flying mounts. I'm fine with 40 mans. I'd just rather see 10 or 15 man raids as the other size.
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  8. mysticjbyrd

    mysticjbyrd Cupcake-About-Town

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    Its not a slippery slope fallacy, because you aren't saying one thing has to cause another. It is a very valid point.
  9. Stare

    Stare New Cupcake

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    All of you who are complaining saying 40-mans are clustered and annoying to deal with, go play WoW then. I'm tired of people saying that they hate the idea of 40-mans. There is plenty of other MMO's that don't have them. And if you didn't know there is going to be solo content too. Just felt like saying that.
  10. Dasphunk

    Dasphunk Cupcake

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    That seems to be the psychology of humans. They hear about something that is becoming popular, exp. Wildstar. Wildstar is becoming a really popular MMO that is coming out, lots of people are taking an interest to the game. So people like to become a part of it, something popular, huge, great. Take bandwagon fans in sports, don't follow their city's team, or even the sport. But when the team is a title contending team, becoming really popular, they are huge fans, and follow it all of a sudden. Now, we get people that don't like the direction Wildstar is going with raids, so they started complaining about it, wanting it changed, so 10mans are involved, without even having a chance to play the game. Who knows, maybe they will like it.

    Which comes to my point. If you don't like that the fact that this game has 40man raiding, and no 10man raiding, why follow it at all? Why not follow or play the games that do provide 10man raiding. If it's for the reason, that you like the style of the game. Then play it for that reason, and raid in another game that provides 10man.
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  11. Witless

    Witless "That" Cupcake

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    I hear ya. But I don't think the majority of folks are complaining about 40 mans. The complaint is for smaller dungeon/raid content to be added to the game. There are very valid reasons that get ignored when a vocal part of the "1%" comment (a comment that has been totally taken out of context by some) crowd think we are attacking their preferred style of play.
  12. The Duck

    The Duck New Cupcake

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    I just hope Wildstar sticks to it's guns and designs this 40 man raid for the 1%. If you are not in the 1% you don't get to kill bosses and all 40 of your team need to be 1%'s too. This makes a boss kill an actual accomplishment. Of course if this is the case, mathematically, one poster in this thread will kill a boss, the rest of us will just have to get better. That would certainly be fun to watch.
  13. Neurotic Cucpake

    Neurotic Cucpake Cupcake-About-Town

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    Actually, I'm pretty sure that large raiding guilds are significantly more excluding than including of the community. Sticking with WoW simply because it's a common reference point, only a fraction of end-game players ever actually stepped foot in Molten Core when it was relevant. This is as opposed to the ten-man raids -- and they were, by definition, raids no matter how much a few people here wish to claim otherwise -- for Upper Blackrock Spire and Scholomance. That had next to nothing to do with the difficulty of the content, but the accessibility due to guild sizes and ease of forming PUGs.

    In addition, most of the large guilds capable of forming 40-man raids were horribly notorious for being elitist and excluding of its members. Players were constantly downgraded in rank and forced to just sit in the rafters at raid time just in the bleak hope that several of the "real" raiders wouldn't show up. And if they didn't, there was absolutely no hope of them ever getting a chance to raid unless the guild did some pity runs with the majority bringing their sub-geared alts, and only if enough of them felt like doing so. There was just no way, unless the guild was ridiculously oversized, that two full-blown raid groups could be sustained.

    This is pretty much exactly the opposite of what smaller raids allow. When I was still playing WoW regularly, the guild I was in had two regular raid groups and a third one that people brought their alts or non-serious raiding mains on just for fun. On the rare occasions there were more people who wanted to raid, it wasn't hard at all to get some of the main raiders to bring an alt along for the ride.

    The guilds that collapsed tended to be the ones that had no real interest in being social or helpful to its members; just massive collections of mostly selfish players forced together to get that 40-man carrot on the stick. They were LFG groups without an LFG interface, except that the majority of the raids actively disliked most of the non-strangers they were playing with. And their breakdowns had less to do with the size of the raids and more to do with their poisonous view of their so-called guildmates.

    Sure, there were exceedingly rare exceptions, but they were few and far apart.

    While someone's accusing me of looking through rose-tinted spectacles, I firmly believe it's the opposite. You guys are focusing on the few good things that existed during those times while ignoring all -- and there was a lot of it, no matter how much you wish to argue otherwise -- the bad.

    What's more, this all ignores the real concern with the mentality being shown here. You openly admit that 40-man raids aren't particularly more fun or desireable than smaller raids. Instead, you claim that the only real thing they do is bring a community together (which is patently untrue; WoW's downfall had little to do with that and was a combination of many, many other things). Or, basically, that forcing people to do things they clearly don't want to do is a good thing.

    In a video game.

    Which are supposed to be fun, not a second job.

    Yeah. Talk about missing the point!
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  14. Dasphunk

    Dasphunk Cupcake

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    There are valid reasons that have been given in response to the request for 10mans. They do have smaller dungeon content, solo, 5 mans dungeons, and 5 man heroic dungeons(BC difficulty), and 20mans. So everyone that wants 10mans, are those to big and too small? Don't you think that's asking for a game to do too much, when they already are providing a lot. Don't you think quality will be affected?
  15. BlindSear

    BlindSear Super Cupcake

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    I really think these issues have a chance at being solved by Circles, in that PUG groups (made up of multiple broken 10 man groups or small groups) will form PUG raids based on who's on. I'm not saying it won't take work, or that it for sure will work, but that it has a chance to help with this problem. I'm also not claiming 10 man groups shouldn't have PVE content. I just think it would be better to leave the raiding at 20 and 40 man groups and not add the 10 man group with equivalent gear.

    If after a while players are ridiculously excluded and such, and the 10 man groups feel like the circles solutions aren't working out, and the 40 man groups are constantly falling apart anyway, at that point start trimming down the group sizes. But implementing both 10 and 40 man raids will inevitably kill the 40 man raiding. Statistically speaking (by ratio and size) 40 man raiding should be a good size. It really depends on how hard the dungeons are tuned, but by what it looks like at the rezzed demo, they aren't anything to scoff at. I'd imagine that Stormtalon's lair, the last boss has some heavier hitting attacks and such.

    Making the content available to everyone isn't necessarily a good thing. If a player is told that they have to do a bunch of work to down a boss, they can then decide if they want to or not. It isn't just assumed. I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm saying the last time 40 man and 20 man raids were seen was early WoW, and since raiding has started to be tuned to be much more difficult, it's really hard to say exactly how the 20/40 man raiding will go.

    This issue can be helped with circles as well. Again, not necessarily that they will inherently be fixed by circles, but definitely it will help. You know those guys who are awesome, but they don't always want to raid? You can have a Rolodex of them basically and toss out a general invite for people who want to be raiders but not commit to a set schedule. Again, depends on the community for this to work out.

    It's really really difficult to predict this type of behavior for an MMO coming out nowadays. Where gamers are not social pariah's and social media is everywhere. I get what you're saying, but back then it was a mark to be a gamer, now everyone and their Grandma games to an extent, so you'll get a completely different mix of players coming to newer MMO's, especially ones that are "stylized" and have bunny people. I think this comes down to community maturity, and so far I'd say Wildstar's is relatively high based on the forums.

    Again, the only inherent benefits of 40 man groups to 10 man groups is the increased capacity for dps per capita, which is always needed. (Ever seen a PUG group trying to find 2x healers and a tank, vs trying to find 3x dps? Who do you think is gonna get a full group faster?)

    Woah, I'm not accusing you of anything. I get the appeal of 10 man raiding, but it still felt more individual, and I was a healer. I think throwing the raid mechanics at a 10 man group, but keeping the content short (ish) would be an awesome feel for it. Maybe tune the health pools to be a bit smaller so the gear incentive is still in the large group raiding. I'm saying give the 10 mans the content and a gold star, but not the platinum star that glows in the dark. I don't think 10 man raiding deserves the same rewards as larger raid groups, because you simply don't have to deal with as much. Sure each person needs to specifically be a better player on a personal level, but the organization and logistical stuff that a 40 man has to go through deserves a bit extra.

    They are to some people, and some people could care less which raid size they're doing as long as they're getting the better gear. You don't need people to be "incentivized" towards 10 man raiding, but you do for 40 man. Have you seen the number of people that break off of guilds to go form their own crack team of 10 mans for raiding? I've seen this done 3 or 4 times from the same guild... Are you saying splintering the larger guilds into a ton of small half formed groups is good for the community? Because that's what 10 man does, it makes it so you no longer need loyalty, because you can imagine just bringing 10 people together. 40 mans on the other hand, you have to think twice or have something lined up before you leave to start your own.

    I honestly think circles will help the issue of 10 man groups getting together to form a 20 man group and that they can get along. The other thing is sure you may have technically a melee class officer a ranged class officer a healer officer and a tanking officer and then a raid leader, but it really doesn't mean anything for a 10 man. At most you're talking to 3 other people about your specific role, so you really don't need leadership in that size of a subgroup. 10 man raiding has no real hierarchy to the structure of the group, except raid leader. I really think it depends on how much support Carbine gives to helping players find raiding groups, and how hard the content is tuned and such.

    I think it's time for a re-evaluation after the evolution of social media and the decline of the "gamer" social stigma which could make for successful 40 man raids. I do think there still should be 10 man PVE content, that isn't raiding, but is still challenging and fun.
  16. Witless

    Witless "That" Cupcake

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    Yes it would be to much, but that isn't what I meant. i may not have been clear. I'd like to see 20 man replaced with 10-15 man. I'd prefer there be a small and large raid type then a medium and large.

    And I'm not trying to stir up an argument, but other than "the devs don't want it", there has not been a valid point to no 10 mans. There have been a lot of opinions.
  17. BlindSear

    BlindSear Super Cupcake

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    That's a possible solution as well, I can't see why they couldn't just do 10 man or 15 mans and 40 mans. As long as they give a different reward for both, the issue is attracting the players that want a nice tight knit group to the smaller size (more towards personal goal) and the ones that want to be in a massive group or simply have the best gear in the game go for the 40 man size (as they tend to need more incentive to retain team members and promote loyalty). You simply need less incentive to be in and run a 10 man raid than a 40 man raid, I don't think anyone can successfully argue that.

    Also, may I say, kudos for coming off like 90% less ranty than I'm used to.
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  18. lusciifi

    lusciifi Cupcake-About-Town

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    Not quite, because most of the 99% don't go to threads before games launch and talk about 40 man raids.
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  19. Witless

    Witless "That" Cupcake

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    LOL. I think I'm just tired of arguing this particular point. The reasons for and against are purely subjective, including mine.

    Now if you want a rant let's talk 1 weapon type per class!! :roflamo:

    As much as I am a proponent for smaller raids, I don't think they should be the same dungeons or rewards. Rewards should fit what you need to accomplish your particular content.
  20. lusciifi

    lusciifi Cupcake-About-Town

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    Really good quote from a blizzard dev in regards to weather or not to continue heroic modes.

    Just because more people would do 10 mans if they were available does not mean wildstar should have them be at the same level as 40 man content.

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