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40 man raids a new thing I'm concerned about.

Discussion in 'WildStar General' started by Gunghoe, Jul 24, 2013.

  1. Chosenxeno

    Chosenxeno Cupcake-About-Town

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    Loot Council is ok until someone you are flatout better than gets a piece you know should be going to you. Atleast with a DKP system I know I did it to myself :D

    Currently under a loot council system
  2. Livnthedream

    Livnthedream Super Cupcake

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    I feel its only a problem if the devs fail to train the player properly on level up. They have already realized the issue, that much is clear from Gaffney stating that they want to make everyone into elite players. The question in WoW that was always asked is "Why do the Europeans always beat us?". The answer to that you can trace almost directly to drastic fall off of the STEM feilds in the US. Even if you do not actively use the things learned from it, learning those fields conditions your brain to be a better problem solver, and that is all a raid boss is. Sure, there is the actual execution, but the vast majority of the time that is the easy part.

    With actual competition, and that competition mattering for other reasons than pure pride, I do not see information being spread around nearly as freely. I see it going back much closer to how it was in EQ with boss fights not being advertised and talked about until they were no longer relevent.

    As for the numbers, I do not think you understand what I am proposing. Take the example I gave above. Assuming its one of the easy configs, meaning there is lots of aoe damage, but none of it is particularly threatening. Geared top guild A easily identifies that they can just soak the damage and burn it down, after all the faster kill time leads to overall less damage taken. Undergeared guild B decides to take far longer to kill the boss but is meticulous about avoiding damage. If your weighting for that week is dps is worth 10% of your score, hps is worth 10%, kill time is worth 30%, and not taking damage is worth 50% then the guild that avoided damage at all cost has a serious chance of being competitve with the top guild. Ie execution was favored over pure gear stats. You can even add additional multipliers for those weights by taking 40 Bobs, setting them at the boss for a baseline, then comparing the averages of everyone who completed the boss that week. Will the top guilds still have an advantage, and are even likely to win, sure. But they do not know the hoops to jump through to game the system. Learning it backwards and forwards on alts is meaningless when what your practicing may not be what the devs have decided to reward.

    Don't get me wrong, I understand this has issues too. Mainly how opaque it is, but also because a number are going to burn themselves out by trying to eek out an advantage that really is not there.
  3. Zellfel

    Zellfel Cupcake-About-Town

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    Nah, I understand your example. It could work if the requirements for what is best differs from week to week and aren't publically known, but as you say I see it frustrating the top performers to either a) quit or b) say "f it, we still killed it first." There are a lot of assumptions in there, and to be honest the biggest assumption that prevails throughout the entire thread is that there's going to be some special reward for the #1 and no one else.

    If it comes down to the #1 getting some special piece of gear that no one else has in the game that truly affects their play then yes I agree it's unfair. If they get something like a mount or a special title, then I don't care and neither should anyone else. Having "championship" type rewards is good for competition, and no matter what it'll be hard to break the cycle of "the best staying the best for a long time" that happens everywhere (See: FC Barcelona for the past few years until last year). The problem is there's too many assumptions in general as to how every facet of gameplay will be rewarded. The one thing I see a lot of people agree on though, is that effort should be rewarded and not simply partipation.

    Your comment on STEM fields in the US is definitely one I agree with, but that's another topic for another time.
  4. FairyTailisBack

    FairyTailisBack Cupcake-About-Town

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    I never recall anyone not going to a raid because they feared getting an upgrade. If you didn't go to the easier farm raid, then you missed out on a lot of DKP.

    We also just assigned static numbers to items, and didn't try to determine what was BiS.
    Though back then, things didn't change at anywhere near the pace they do now either.


    I saw another interesting system in a more casual guild later in WoW that involved /roll.
    Alts /roll 97
    New Recruits /roll 98
    Normal Raiders /roll 99
    Core Raiders /roll 100

    I believe you were limited to 1-2 items a night.

    Higher /roll #s always took priority over lower /roll #s. So, doing a /roll 100 and getting 1 is > /roll 99 and getting 99.
    In other words, assuming a core raiders wanted an item they would always win regardless of the number they actually rolled, and so on.

    It was pretty effective for something quick, but I am not sure it would work well in 40 man.
  5. Livnthedream

    Livnthedream Super Cupcake

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    We do not really know a lot, but many conclusions can be drawn. They have used the term "legendary" for example, and I agree its unlikely to be just the top guild. I see it more likely to be the % similar to how Gladiator is awarded for arena. What they reward, and how I would guess also has quite a lot to do with just how many participate and how. I fully expect many changes directly after launch once they see how the playerbase reacts.
  6. FairyTailisBack

    FairyTailisBack Cupcake-About-Town

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    Exactly. DRAMA!

    The question is are you really better, or are you just way more geared.
    Gear makes such a huge impact on your damage in WoW!
    You could easily be doing 5x the dmg at the end of xpac as you were at the start.
    How is the other guy ever going to compete if others always get the gear?

    Even, if you are a better player, you got to admit the system is still kind of unfair.
    Some people will always be better. But you are both putting in equal effort and time.
  7. Chosenxeno

    Chosenxeno Cupcake-About-Town

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    It's because I'm better and/or the best. Gear will not help make a bad player get better. Gear will however, help to make a good player stronger. I've never seen loot turn a Mcnublet into a beast overnight. Their 6k is now 6300 yaaaay.

    Also, I don't play WOW. I play Rift. The challenge and depth are at higher levels. There's nothing wrong with WOW(Perfect for casuals. There is nothing wrong with that even though people cry about it constantly!) after 5 years it just got old.
  8. Zellfel

    Zellfel Cupcake-About-Town

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    I vote the solution SWTOR proposed back in the day. You kill a boss, everyone get a bag with a chance at some loot for them inside of it that isn't balanced against the rest of the raid. No crazy loot logistics, no drama. Done.
  9. Valarcx

    Valarcx New Cupcake

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    I like it when I can get something unique just by putting more effort in then you. Hey that sounds like IRL..
    Witless likes this.
  10. FairyTailisBack

    FairyTailisBack Cupcake-About-Town

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    I approve this message.

    Loot drama will always happen, and it will always be pain in the ass to deal with.
    Just get rid of it completely. No one can complain if its completely random.
  11. Kishmet

    Kishmet New Cupcake

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    As long as loot is only handed out for a boss kill, a system that rewards anything other than cosmetic items for first or fastest clear is going to be a problem (imo). I did not read every single page tbh but it's mindboggling how many people blatantly ignore the second part of the OP's sentece:
    "Carbine should not reward the best guilds, any more than the other guilds that complete that weeks raid. To me i have a bad feeling about this if less than 1% will even have the chance to obtain the best items."
    He is not saying everybody should get the legendary. He is merely saying any guild that DEFEATS that specific weeks raid should get the same gear period.
    And I agree with him if Carbine handles loot the way most MMOs handle it in the way of if you kill the boss you will get loot. Because the reward (loot) is then given for the task of killing the boss. The task was never to see how quickly or how early you could defeat said boss.
    If Carbine actually would want to give gear to people that defeat bosses/ raids quicker/ earlier than they'd have to set up a loot table that rewards people differently based on how fast or early they defeated the raid. Then a reward scheme as the OP outlined it would actually work because that is how rewards in raids are normally given (in this hypothetical scenario).
    Personally I don't mind cosmetics, hardcore's should get something to show off and that is good. Hell if you want to give them gear give them gear that is equal to something actually found in the raid stat wise with a unique skin (effectively making it a cosmetic). But as long as you give out gear for the task of killing a boss you can't suddenly say: "Ooops forgot to tell you the task is to kill the boss as fast/ early as possible" That's just illogical if the game's reward system does not always work like that on every level of raiding.

    Bottom line as far as effective gear with stat goes anybody who can defeat the raid should get the chance at the same items since defeating the raid was the task for which the reward is given.

    And for all the people who say time =/= skill I suggest reading the OP more carefully and actually thinking what that your motto means because if you really subscribe to that opinion, then world firsts or world fastest runs should not be rewarded anymore than anybody else either since the only deciding factor is time which according to you does not equal skill. And we wanted to reward skill right?
  12. Vossler

    Vossler Cupcake

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    This topic was the worst. I think this guy repeated the same thing at least five times.

    I would guess the rewards would be cosmetic, otherwise one or two guilds would always be on top no matter what with better than raiding gear. Probably be unique housing items, mounts, titles, and random cool fun things.
  13. azmundai

    azmundai Well-Known Cupcake

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    so there will be a few items that are extremely hard to get that you won't have access to (neither will I) ... I think you (we) will survive. That being said, the line is in the sand. You don't have to play a game where you don't have full access to everything.

    interestingly I have a real problem with the idea that there might be cash shop only items. i don't mind having to put time and effort into getting items, but if there are items that I can only get with cash .. that will irritate me and I might unsub and uninstall if it irritates me enough. that is the choice we all have to make.

    while the idea that there might also be ingame currency involved so that I might buy cash shop only items sort of softens the blow .. the reality is that i fully do not enjoy that kind of mechanic in any of the games that have it that I have played because it basically comes down to grinding cash .. which is just asinine. grinding for essences I love doing, but grinding for cash is just a psychology that these games really should try to steer clear of imo.
  14. Ordos232

    Ordos232 New Cupcake

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    If you can't put your best foot forward when trying for the best rewards, then maybe, just maybe, you don't deserve said rewards?

    That being said, and I am going to be very blunt here, this game does not need players with this attitude. Please take it elsewhere.
  15. Shishioh

    Shishioh New Cupcake

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    Read all of it, but I'm sorry, OP, you just gleam through as a typical casual player who wants something for nothing.

    People who put in the effort to succeed in a game deserve to be rewarded accordingly.

    That's all I have to say.
  16. AcidBaron

    AcidBaron "That" Cupcake

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    Would work if you have a non core group i suppose, the problems i have with rolls and randomly awarded stuff is that there's cases of always the same people getting loot than those people being happy enough with what they got and suddenly a real life issue appears out of no where making them MIA for a long time.

    With people not coming to raids, at some points you knew what was left up and what dropped where, those people are very obvious as a RL as they often ask you "whats' still left?" pushing loot on people doesn't sit well and doesn't encourage i'm more for simply letting people pick if they want it or not, if they do than go to a point or council system.
  17. Sayantan

    Sayantan Cupcake

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    WoW LFR has the system. It works fine for PuGs but not for organized groups. It is a terrible system for organized loots.

    In one of my SWTOR raids, I remember us killing the Karagga (sp?). On 3 different clears, one of our snipers got the same gun twice; our other sniper didn't get it even once.

    Both of them were present for all our wipes and all our kills. And there was very little skill gap between them.

    So, how's it fair to the second guy? "Sorry son, you're sh1t-outa-luck"

    Loot rewards in organized raid should never be about luck.

    TLDR --
    If you're seriously not raiding under a mature raid leadership who knows how to handle loot, then the guild you are in deserves to perish.


    EPGP is a very fair loot system by the way.
  18. Apostate

    Apostate Well-Known Cupcake

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    The nature of competition is that not everybody wins.
    teh_ninjaneer and Livnthedream like this.
  19. Sayantan

    Sayantan Cupcake

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    Absolutely. Getting it faster is reward enough.
  20. Zellfel

    Zellfel Cupcake-About-Town

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    Loot in MMOs is always about luck, even in organized raids. If you're talking about Loot Distribution then yes, that shouldn't be about luck but that's not what you're talking about.

    I'll give you an example on where loot is still luck, even in an organized raid. My guild killed Ragnaros 21 times while it was current in WoW: Cataclysm. Not once did I ever see Sulfuras drop out of those 21 kills. My warrior had craptastic weapons heading into Dragon Soul, because I had terrible luck. As an aside, I saw that mace drop on an alt run, and it went to my mage's retribution paladin alt. That was the only time I ever saw that mace drop. So let me ask you again, how is that fair to me (referencing your example).

    Distributing loot that drops isn't and shouldn't ever be luck, but even in your system luck can play a part of it. If you just spent all of your DKP or EPGP or whatever the system you use, and then that one piece that's really important drops, guess what? "Sorry son, you're <REDACTED>-outa-luck" (btw you shouldn't try to dodge the word filters).

    Just saying, luck will always play a part in it no matter what system you choose. Sometimes it's not just up to the guild leadership to be mature, it's also the majority of the raiders. Loot drama doesn't always stem from the guys at the top.

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