40 man raids a new thing I'm concerned about.

Absolutely. I meant Loot Distribution.

And I understand your RNG frustration. Took me 5 months of Black Temple clear back in the day to get my "Skull of Gul'dan" for my mage. And that's a lot of BT.

:*(

They said they're not rewarding world/server firsts, instead using their weekly challenges to reward players. Due note though, that 40 people is a lot, and the hardest challenges that offer the best rewards will be far and few between.

Don't want to pull that rope again but it's relevant here: you are one in 40, your contribution in comparison overall is small. A big weapon upgrade or something other will not see increases in your raid's performance. Even after a few challenging weeks, which will probably be spread over the course of months, you'll maybe see only minor improvements. By the time you could earn enough "legendary" items to make a noticeable difference, it will all be outdated by a new tier of items.

The design is simply, to reward good items to good players in such a way that the individual feels improvement, therefore validating all the hard work, but the raid group as a whole will not see it, due to the rewards being spread out far enough to not make a difference.

So, to the TC, and those who share similar sentiments; your worries, while they had some validity, were for naught.

Maybe, then, they should make raid loot tradeable between party members but between nobody else, sort of an extended BOP except to the party instead of the individual. That way if a member gets something multiple times he can trade it to another that needs it.

WOW had this system of loot transfer between present raid members and SWTOR picked it up recently aswell, its a big help but still not the problem.. infact it can cause problems especially if you pug anyone, even in a guild run (half/almost full w/e) Multiple times i was subjected to pugging with half guild groups who had everyone rolling on things just so they could pass it to their mate..

To have fun and do the content that fits your lifestyle?
If bleeding edge progression isn't something you do or want to do then shouldn't you already be experiencing the feeling of falling behind, because there's guilds devoting that extra time to clear the content faster and they're gearing out faster.
If you don't want to devote 30+ hours to raiding per week then don't. A cluster of pixels isn't going to force you one way or the other.

This will happen whether there is a legendary/unique item or not. This already happens in every other mmo with a raiding scene. There's a good portion of people who want to be in the best guild for reasons of competition, not for loot.
A legendary/unique item is the icing on the cake for a "top" guild. It won't be the one and only reason anyone raids. Implying that the existence of a legendary item will cause guilds to quit because they can't compete with a World First guild is a pretty bold statement with very little evidence.

Let me ask this: If the existence of a Legendary item will cause guilds that can't compete with top-end guilds to quit, then wouldn't NOT having the Legendary item cause EVERY guild to not raid since according to your logic it is the only incentive to raid at all?

Well.. I hate to use WoW as a comparison but it seems the easiest to do..

In vanilla when I would see someone running around with a legendary or the highest tier PVP armor I was always like "OMFG....! hey (whatever friends), (this player) has (this weapon/armor)!!!" I mean, it was a BIG deal to me being a player that wanted to have that stuff but couldn't devote the time. Point being I think it's a great thing to have that gear that is obtained by 1 in 10000 players. It adds to the game and gives players something to strive for. When wow began handing out epics like greens it was really stupid... I mean I could level to 80 in a week, get totally geared in 5 man dungeons (enough to go with geared guildies) and be raiding... It was SO FRIGING BORING... and there were really no "OMG" armor or weapons because they were just either so easy to get.. or any 40 man raid would eventually get them just by doing the raid. I want that (this raid/player/guild/ect. did X the best so they get Y) that way I get to try to be the "best" next week/month/ect.

In the end does it really matter who had the best PVE gear? Other than just wanting it for progression what does it really do? I mean unless PVP goes all WoW where you have 40 man raid guilds bringing in PVE gear and decimating BGs (which I don't think will happen) I don't see anything wrong with it..


Aaaand I am tired and rambling.. GNIGHT!

To OP,

Lets say we're both applying to the same white collar job(job=them rewards you crave). You spent years in college studying for that position(time and effort). Then I come along, having spent a fraction the time you spent in school and got that job? How would that make you feel?

Hell,even if we both go the job and you still spent all those years practicing for it and I didn't, but we still received the same salary. Do you honestly believe we should be rewarded equally?

People randomly leaving could happen to anyone at any time.
It sucks when it is someone with lots of gear, but I don't think any loot system would really help to prevent this.

Yah, I understand. Our guild ran a zero sum DKP system for a long time.
We only initiated the forced upgrade system as it was evident a lot of upgrades were being disenchanted just because people were hording DKP for certain items like weapons.
It was understandable, but at the same time it was hurting progression.
It sure as heck wasn't a perfect system though.
I remember T2 shaman gear, aside from set bonus later, was actually inferior to T1.
Yet, I still grinned and took my 'upgrades'. So it obviously wasn't perfect, but the alternative wasn't good either.

We actually went Loot council in TBC.
It did save time, but I didn't enjoy being in that position.


I am actually more in favor of completely random loot doled out by the game.
It removes the 'strategy' of selective gearing, but it also removes a huge burden from the players.
The burden and time saved to me far outweighs the iota of strategy from selective gearing.

This topic has been debated millions of times.

When you give everyone easy access to the best rewards you first and foremost break a valuable social chain. These are REAL people playing this game, the game's social structure will mirror real life because that's all we know, and I don't know if you've realized, but in life there's a few elite and then you work your way down from there. It needs to be the same way in MMOs.

Anyone who played WoW pre-WotLK through WotLK will agree with me. Because the second Blizz introduced welfare epics is the second the server communities started to go down the drain. More and more people started acting like <REDACTED>s because they had the best gear, and within a month everyone had the same gear. You couldn't tell who was the best and no one cared who the best guild was on your server, if you could even call them that, by the end of WotLK most raiding guilds were just a revolving door of raiders who wanted to finish end game as quickly as possible and get back to their lives. Anyone ever watched that Fairly Oddparents episode where everyone got turned into a grey blob, that was basically WoW post patch 3.2. Everyone was an <REDACTED> to everybody else for trivial reasons or it at least seemed that way, there definitely wasn't the same community dynamic there was before that.

Secondly, the best players deserve the best gear. Just like the best NFL players deserve the most money. There's a reason why Chad Henne is a back-up and Matt Ryan is now making 20.75 million dollars a year. Why should a random casual who doesn't have the time or will to work to become one of the best raiders get the best gear. Would you want your favorite NFL team to pay Chad Henne 20.75 million dollars a year? Does it sound a bit <REDACTED>-ish? Yeah, it does but it's the way life works anything else is odd and awkward.

Is it a harsh dynamic for players who join after launch? Yes, but at the same time would you want the new guy at work to get promoted to your job immediately?

Is it a perfect system? No, we're human, nothing we do and no system we ever develop will be perfect and that includes trying to force everyone to be equal by handing out welfare epics.

Do you remember the LFR environment prior to the change in loot?
It was the absolute most grotesque community imaginable.
It literally could not have gotten worse!

The new loot distribution patch hits, and that disappears overnight.


It doesn't matter if one sniper got multiple of the same gun.
The other sniper had about an equal chance as a standard raid drop to get the item!

Its completely random. You can't look at the one guy who got lucky and say we would have 3 geared snipers if this had not been master looter.

The mere statement saying you should be rewarded the same as the players that put more time and effort in it basically tells me you want everything handed to you on a silver platter. Isn't it the same for sports/work, some people excel in their field and are rewarded accordingly. You're saying hard work or just being "good" shouldn't factor into a game. Tell that to all the "e-sport" athletes that compete for prize money and some of them even make a living out of it. It's just a statement saying you haven't thought about it from a big picture, just pure selfishness.

It's all who you got in the council, as Raid leader i never want to be part of it as i'm busy with the raid and people moaning to me about loot in whispers gets old fast.

If the people in it actually use a fair system based of gearlists people update regularly themselfs it's rather clearcut and you don't have that many issues.

Loot council is like communism.

On paper communism is the ideal form of govt.
In practice though it fails miserably.
It isn't that the plan isn't good. it is great, its that people are too flawed to practice it.

Everything can be manipulated and corrupted by that standard you need some sort of <REDACTED>ty hand holding system as in in WoW LFD or GW2 what basically is not something that belongs in guilds.

As part of a US top 10 WoW guild, the whole "elitist, serious" tone is a myth. If you look past the stigma of filling out an app(and you wouldn't believe how many people apply with incomplete gems/enchants/glyphs, really basic stuff), they're generally pretty chill groups of people to play with. The guild web forums are actually filled with a lot of naked male models posing with puppies or other cute baby animals, and the actual raiding is pretty low stress other than meeting a schedule if you're currently an active raider.

I hate my office job as much as the next guy, but if I want to clear content and get "best gear," doing the very basic steps of being punctual and keeping people informed is the least I can do. Plus, you get to do a lot of unprofessional things like telling your leaders to #$%! off regularly or call people out for screwing up when they do, it's very stress-relieving.

Every guild has a chance to become one of the best. As long as you work hard, you can become one of the best. Also I think you are confusing "Becoming one of the best" with: becoming THE BEST. There is a difference. Just because 1 guild is the best, and stays the best does not mean that will be the only guild with uber gear. You can get uber gear without being in the best guild on your server.

And as a person that quit other MMO's because the best gear was basically just handed to me with no effort involved, I look forward to said challenge of becoming the best.

Yet, it is the most fair to everyone.
Lets face it selective gearing is about as strategic as taking a dump.
Who cares if its gone?

... that no one ever was?

Naked male models with puppies and stuffed animals.

What is the name of your guild again?
I want to stay as far away as possible.

Statements like that actually show me this is a pointless discussion to be held with you, because yes there's more to it than simply handing out gear.

Also random appointed loot is a method for people who can't handle stuff, i generally don't join such guilds and i rarely had drama about loot.

I also find it the game does not have to treat me like a kid simply because others are unable to act normal.

So yes i care if it's gone and plenty of others do to, because the randomly appointed system is just as flawed just that it's even less controlled and in this game with this itemization that would be a real retarded move to make.