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40 mans: Not all they're cracked up to be...

Discussion in 'WildStar General' started by Destian, Nov 21, 2013.

  1. Jeuraud

    Jeuraud Cupcake-About-Town

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    Why?
    The Carbine Devs have stated only 1% of the MMO population participated in 40man raids, but their putting them in anyways, because they the Devs liked them (Along with some more reasons I felt were more trying to justify putting in 40mans.).
    If you do not like 40 man raids then you’re not part of that 1% that this content is catering to, and you saying that they should not exist is going to change nothing.
    You’re also not the first person to get up on their soapbox on this subject, in this forum.

    And solo content does?!
    You might play MMOs for the social connections ‘you’ make. I’m part of that 65% that primarily solos, so my reason for playing an MMO is not for the social connections I make.

    As for the potential of making social connections (I figure you’re talking about new ones.); potentially, 40man raids provide more chances of forming new social connections than small group content, which in this day and age of MMOs is often already made social connections coming over from other MMOs.

    In conclusion I feel that even as a Soloer I have no issues with 40mans being part of the W* Eldergame content, being the Devs have said straight up they know the % of MMO population that is going to be interested in them, and they are providing other Eldergame content for other play styles.
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  2. Extatica

    Extatica Super Cupcake

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    The more you talk the more I feel sorry for you that you haven't experienced the ''good/fun'' side of 40 man raids.

    YES, there were bad sides to it. Not everything was as rose coloured as some picture it to be. But if you had a guild without any trouble, you could look past those things and experiences the ''fun'' that was in those raids.
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  3. Domi Dayglow

    Domi Dayglow Super Cupcake

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    I kind of have to agree. I don't have much experience with World of Warcraft, but I do understand the time and reward thing with it's raiding from a couple of other games. Kind of like the Nightmare levels from The Secret World. Only, kind of worse.

    People devoting two hours to a raid with forty people. There will (for arguments sake) only 3 pieces of gear that's dropped. The odds of getting a piece of gear that I can use, much less might need, is incredibly low. Add more things into the equation, such as a raid leader who only gives the gear to friends or guildmates, and the odds drop even lower for me. So the motivation to join a raid for gear is very low for me. Instead, the reward will have to be time spent playing with friends.



    The Secret World's version I considered tedious. At least, many of them were at nightmare level. Most of it was made up of threshold checks. You had to do X amount of damage or Y amount of healing. You had to move in one certain set pattern. Rinse, then repeat. It stopped being fun, and started to be a chore. At the same time, City of Heroes' end game, was honestly too easy. As long as a small handful of people knew what to do and how to do it the task would succeed.

    In other words, I think challenging also means figuring out more than one way to win. Like, remember in the Esper livestream in Stormtalon? The telegraphs that followed the player? By leading the telegraphs to enemies, it struck them and did damage. This is a neat little thing that allows even healers to do more damage. You don't have to do it, but it's fun to try. Much better than secret world where it was just "Move in this pattern to stay out of line of death".



    I think this is a matter of personal preference and computer performance. I'm sure too that Carbine has included options to reduce graphics. The only thing that mildly concerns me is being unable to see telegraphs when forty people are around. I hope that during this next closed beta Carbine will post some gameplay of a 40 man raid.



    Again, I kind of don't have a personal reference to World of Warcraft. I can see where the problem arrives though. Usually from people's greed. The only type of raid I can relate to in this is from City of Heroes where there were 55 people. I made some of my first friends on them. It wasn't really a hard raid. It was more of a social experience. Yet, I usually stay away from joining any guild or group at all. The invites to raids and teams I received came from people who had played with me before and decided that they liked me, or that I wasn't annoying, or tried to at least learn what I was doing.
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  4. Bnol

    Bnol Cupcake-About-Town

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    It is funny, because most of your complaints about 40-man I didn't experience until our guild dropped to 25-man in TBC. So, it wasn't because of the size of the raid, but rather a lot of other factors.
  5. azmundai

    azmundai Well-Known Cupcake

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    good thing they are basically optional then, yes?
  6. BLAPPiN

    BLAPPiN Cupcake

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    IMO it comes down to the people you are playing with. If you are playing with a group of people who like each other, or maybe know each other in RL, it goes a long way in terms of helping each other get gear.

    Playing with someone who only cares about loot and you can expect them to ditch you the minute they get what they needed. Play with friends and they should be down to help you run that same raid instance etc.. until you get what you need, then you guys can move on together. At least thats how me and my friends approach it...
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  7. Enitzu

    Enitzu New Cupcake

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    As someone that also experienced boht 72 man raids in EQ and all of the 40 mans in WoW ... I disagree with you completely.

    Yes there are those trashy people that used guilds as stepping stones to higher progressed guilds. There were those guilds that did head hunt. That is going to happen regardless if it's 10/20/40/100 man raids. Nothing you, I, or Carbine can do to stop that.

    In WoW this was done due to progression gated content. No top end guilds wanted to backtrack that far to get people attuned and/or geared to keep up with their current progression. So instead they poached people from guilds that were just below them to keep going with minimal back tracking. Sucks but it is what it is.

    As for your arguement saying that 40 is too big to be friends with people ... I have about 20 people that I was with in the original EQ that I still talk to 15 years later and that was 72 mans. Yea I can say that I didn't know everyone of them that well but I played with them on a daily basis and got to know the large majority of them pretty well.

    The benefits, which you didn't bother to put into the whole rant, are just as good as the possible negatives. Having a large group means there are always people online to do stuff, be it pve, pvp, crafting, whatever! It means you get to push the content in the game and feel like a huge accomplishment when you succeed. Yes I know you can get that feeling from a 10 man but for me and many others 10 man isn't even a raid. It's a joke and inb4 attempted troll, yes I have cleared heroic content on 10 and 25 so I know the differences.

    There are more benefits to having a big group of people but you can get the drift. If 40 mans aren't for you then you don't HAVE to do them. It has already been stated that a large portion of the community won't. This is why there are 20 mans.
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  8. Blue Tunic Man

    Blue Tunic Man Cupcake-About-Town

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    I want to organize a 40 man raiding guild so I can yell at them to put up more DoTs on Vent and get greying hair early at the ripe age of twenty.

    It's a good night to be grand master guild dictator leader of prestige rank ten.

    *raises claymore*
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  9. Pocketz

    Pocketz Cupcake-About-Town

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    Christ, why is everyone so aggressive?
    Treating Wildstar as if its your first born or something.

    New person joins the wildstar community with his or her own concern, concerns that probably all of us had at one point. Why dont we try to embrace another person interested in the game we love and address their concerns in a polite manner, than just calling them trolls and attention seeking?

    Honestly people.

    Welcome Destain, I apologize for the rest of us here.
    I'm glad you took the effort to write down your concerns!

    I understand where you're coming from, but in wildstar you will have other raid models from the start, like 20 man. All we can do is wait and see where it goes with 40 mans in Wildstar, but one thing that I had to get in to my head, and you as well, is that Wildstar is not World of warcraft. I have high hopes that Carbine has learnt from where WoW went wrong, and has tweaked their features to avoid WoWs downfalls.
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  10. Voorhees

    Voorhees Cupcake

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    As a former GM of a top Horde side 40 man raiding guild 6/7 days a week 4 hours a night just raiding time, I am all for 40 mans coming back. Will I participate in them???... Doubtful. I have a family and a 5 1/2 month old, BUT that isn't to say that I really wouldn't want to.

    Being the leader and organizing 40 person raids becomes stressful, time consuming, and just downright awful at times. BUT when it's successful there is NOTHING that feels better than that! Like being server first Nefarian kill... talk about an all night party!

    Like a few have said, most of the problems talked about will happen in 10/20/25/40... and so on. It doesn't matter, but for those large hardcore raiding guilds that existed in WoW 40 man was a very nice mark.

    And to the guy talking about not having 39 "Real" friends... big deal, make new friends or build friendships within a guild. Not only did I know a lot of personal things like where my guildies were from, to their families, to favorite music... But I knew a TON of other non guildies on our server including many from the other faction. Through talking with them on raid strategies, world events, BGs, world pvp, and many other things.

    40's aren't for everyone, but they are for many!

    Here's to hoping that this game ROCKS!!!!!
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  11. RavenWind

    RavenWind Well-Known Cupcake

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    Gotta go with Extatica here. I feel sorry for Destian missing out on a great experience with 40 mans. All of the 1-6 points are really subjective, so I don't see a real reason to address them. The concluding paragraph I find really interesting though
    Really? You expect an MMO to give you friends. Its not unreasonable that you might meet some folks you get along with but to expect it...to feel entitled to it. That's not a reasonable expectation. I mean let's look at your post...its a diatribe against something you had to know was going to rub a lot of people the wrong way. Instead of a negative attack on 40 mans, you could've started a topic to discuss the positives of 10 mans down the road maybe, for those that can't/won't 40 man. I just don't see what putting so much effort into a post that was never going to be constructive , was supposed to accomplish.
  12. Hob

    Hob Cupcake

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    It's almost like there isn't an alternative raid size for people who don't like 40 mans...
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  13. Ico

    Ico Moderator • WSC's Gentle Flower

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    <Mod Face> As said in the edited post. Keep posts constructive and not about attacking another user. </Mod Face>
  14. Death

    Death Cupcake-About-Town

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    Isn't it true that we have to run Veteran modes to earn our way into 20 mans and then 20 mans to earn our way gearwise into 40 mans in the first place? Could've sworn I saw that said somewhere officially...
  15. Destian

    Destian Cupcake-About-Town

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    It was constructive criticism of the 40 man raiding model.

    These are all of the problems I PERSONALLY encountered when raiding 40 mans back in WoW.

    Since Cata, we've had exactly one guy leave our guild to do more progression oriented raiding (heroics) and he still kept alts in our guild and we talk with him regularly (he couldn't get a regular raiding spot in our guild at the time).

    Had this been vanilla, he would've left like a thief in the night which was common for players to do because, odds are, any attachment he may have had to the guild would've been transient.

    It's the model and the mindset that 40 mans create that I think will be bad news for the overall community.

    I think the slow progress and the impersonal nature combined are what caused it to be that bad. When you're dealing with 40 people, it's much, MUCH easier to see players as numbers and gearscores instead of people.

    I can't be sure if WS's raids will be the same way (I certainly hope not), but if they are, I think poaching will be back in full force, and that includes poaching people from 20 mans.

    I agree completely, but the problem is that you're going to have a hard time telling who is in it for the loot and who is there because they genuinely like the group they're playing with.

    And once again, folks, I've not been paying attention to WildStar for very long. Have the devs addressed any of these concerns already and I'm worried for nothing?

    Are there guild loyalty systems of any kind (WoW had guild rep, but not until Cata)? Are there any safeguards in place that discourage guild poaching (karma systems, etc.)?
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  16. Sapien

    Sapien Cupcake-About-Town

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    And i hope there is some kind of attunements mixed in that too. :up:
  17. Destian

    Destian Cupcake-About-Town

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    40 man raids felt more like I was competing against the other players in the raid than I was the raid bosses themselves.

    And as I already said earlier, getting attached to players in 40 mans was generally pointless due to the high churn rate. :\
  18. Fishsticks

    Fishsticks Cupcake-About-Town

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    I'm really confused as to why everyone is hating so hard on the OP. I think his post was pretty benign and he was just stating some concerns, many of which are valid imo (I personally agree that you could remove 20 people from 40 man raids and they would functional essentially the same way)

    Everyone saying, "WELL 40 MAN RAIDS ARE OPTIONAL! YOU DONT HAVE TO DO THEM AND THUS HAVE NO RIGHT TO COMMENT ON THEM" is mentally challenged. "Hey man, if you don't like the way PvP is set up, then you just don't have to do it!" Misses the point entirely - "Love it or leave it" is a really dumb-<REDACTED> philosophy to have.

    Similarly, anyone claiming that people "just aren't hardcore enough" to handle 40 man raids or are "bad players" because they dont like a particular facet of a game, is really only embarrassing themselves.



    You've entirely missed the point. He's saying the size of the raid makes it essentially impossible to have any real connection to the other people you're playing with - in the way that you can play an organized 5v5 game of Counter-Strike with you and your friends, but it's pretty tough to play 16 v 16 pub matches with people you know.
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  19. Enitzu

    Enitzu New Cupcake

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    Question is, is it actual poaching or just people wanting more progression? A person choosing to leave a guild for another doesn't mean that the guild poached them. I honestly don't see a lot of poaching happening but 20 man raiders may at some point want to go to 40 and I do see that happening.

    I'm honestly sorry that you had such a bad experience with 40s. Personally we never had an issue with poaching as we all loved playing together. Yea we had a couple people leave through vanilla but for the most part the same people stayed from start through BC when we split up. So maybe I just didn't see things from your point of view. But I disagree with this statement. Not getting to know people because "it's pointless" could very well be the reason those people opted to leave you in the first place. Community means alot in MMOs and if people feel like the odd man out they will find some where they do fit in
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  20. Convicted

    Convicted Super Cupcake

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    He didn't miss the point at all, he said you don't need to make friends with all 39 other people, and you are saying you cant make any friends at all...that might be your confusion.

    Make a guild whichever size you want to, then ally together for the raid and then go back to your small circle of guild friends.

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