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40 mans: Not all they're cracked up to be...

Discussion in 'WildStar General' started by Destian, Nov 21, 2013.

  1. lacrimstein

    lacrimstein Cupcake

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    I don't understand the point you're trying to make. Do you want 40-mans to be removed from the game completely? Or do you want Carbine to implement systems that mitigate these problems?

    I think Guild Circles take care of the guild issues somewhat. Instead of players guild-hopping, guilds can circle-hop and team up with other guilds who are at the same stage. Also, guild drama and poaching will happen no matter what the content format is. I've witnessed it myself in GW1 many times, and that game didn't have 40-mans.
  2. BLAPPiN

    BLAPPiN Cupcake

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    Besides playing with people you know in RL, i usually find some people fairly early on in the leveling process taht i like to play with. (maybe doing a quest and they come help and u guys end up playing a few quests together.) i then add them to my flist and play with them when they are on, usually after a few quests or days of playing with someone they will show their true colors...
    Destian likes this.
  3. Convicted

    Convicted Super Cupcake

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    I feel like a broken record with this, but you can't poach someone who is happy where they are. If they are unhappy, why would you want to force them to continue to be unhappy.
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  4. Fishsticks

    Fishsticks Cupcake-About-Town

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    I'm saying the expectation of making 39 friends is unreasonable. That's what the OP said as well. Conversely, making/being friends with a much smaller group is more reasonable.

    I'm not saying I prefer it one way or the other - but that's seems like pretty sound logic to me: It's harder to know/befriend more people than it is to know/befriend a smaller number of people. Do you disagree?
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  5. Sarigar

    Sarigar Cupcake

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    I raided from old EQ through Cataclysm in WoW, and everything the OP observes about 40 man raids is accurate, in my opinion. 40 man raids always felt more like a job than a fun experience, and the competition and downright meanness of players and raid leaders was WAY worse in EQ than in WoW. I'm not sure what Carbine wants to accomplish here, except revive an outdated raid model for nostalgic reasons. Even twenty people is more than enough to organize and direct.
  6. Yule

    Yule Cupcake

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    This happens in any game with some form of competitive raiding. Deal with it.
  7. RavenWind

    RavenWind Well-Known Cupcake

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    Nope, didn't miss anything, his point is just not entirely accurate. Maybe he couldn't make connections with that many people, but plenty of other people sure have. I have nothing against 10 man raids. I have nothing against 40 man raids. The more things I have to try the better.
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  8. Convicted

    Convicted Super Cupcake

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    Why do you have to befriend all of them? Why can't you befriend a smaller group of the 40 people?
    I'm pretty sure you can accomplish your goals in a 40man, without being friends with every single person in the guild.
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  9. Jarinolde

    Jarinolde Cupcake-About-Town

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    Because this paves the way for cliques which for many guilds are toxic.
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  10. Convicted

    Convicted Super Cupcake

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    So there should be no guilds over 10 people unless everyone is friends? Those 200+ guilds have to all be friends then?
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  11. Kryptikk

    Kryptikk New Cupcake

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    The idea that a large group of people can't be social or friendly is kind of strange to me. I raided from the first moment I could in Vanilla WoW back when raids were really just big versions of 5 mans (UBRS/LBRS anyone?) And I knew everyone in the guild I was in. Heck I knew most of them better then kids I went to high school with and had been around since 1st grade. The experience you have had in guilds sounds negative but that is not the fault of Carbine. The truth is raiding is a "job" as you put it no matter the raid size. You still farm mats, gold and other things to make them happen if there is 10 or 1000 people.

    DO cliques happen? of course some people have more time to be online or on mumble/TS/Vent and thus they will become more friendly then the guy who logs into to raid and logs off. Drama will always be a factor it is not based on size.

    Heck most guilds that run just 10 mans in WoW have over 100 members. I guess my main point is that while apparently these "reasons" 40 mans are bad are so subjective to the experience people had that this whole argument is just kinda weird to me. People play the game to enjoy it raiding is a job if you do it at a high level but its a job i would rather do any day of the week then my real one no matter the size. Guilds are families if yours isnt find another, I have never jumped ship to another guild due to the option of gear. MMO's are a social environment get over it and socialize!
  12. Sarigar

    Sarigar Cupcake

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    The most sensible argument against 40 man raids is from practicality: it can be very difficult to have 40 people available for 3-5 hours on a regular basis (assuming that these raids involve multiple targets and trash mobs, not single location boss fights). The more people you have to have in a raid, the more likely you run into connection problems, late night departures, baby/child issues, dinner time, etc. These problems occur at any size raid, to be sure, but the bigger the raid, the worse the problem tends to be.

    I think the best thing to do, though, is see how it plays out at launch. One way or another, 40 man raids will not be the salvation or doom of WildStar. If it's there as an option for particularly devoted and populous guilds, more power to them.
    xerel and Destian like this.
  13. Destian

    Destian Cupcake-About-Town

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    It's a cumulative effect that hinges on a number of things, one of those being how slow progression is.

    Say you're in a raid group with 40 people who seem relatively happy (and for all intents and purposes, they may as well be).

    Then, someone from another guild offers the 10 best-geared players a spot in a guild that's downing 3-4 more bosses than the current guild. Well, although they may be happy, those 10 people see an opportunity to be happier, and since the odds are that they've not formed any strong ties with the current guild, they leave (or at least some of them do).

    This, in turn, results in the players left behind losing a LOT of morale: They just lost 10 players and months worth of gearing, to boot. These disheartened players are more likely to be looking for a ticket out of the guild as well and are more likely to abandon ship if the opportunity presents itself.

    As I said, if WS's progress relatively quick and painless, it won't be as much of an issue because the desire to poach won't be there, but poaching is basically getting more loot drops per boss because you're picking up players who acquired those loot drops already.

    I'm not saying this is guaranteed to happen, but I don't see why it won't.

    Poaching is harder to do when:

    A) Gear isn't incredibly difficult to come by so people would rather stay in their guild and wait.

    B) People have grown attached to the other players in their guild/raid group and won't want to leave, and I find a smaller, more intimate raid size goes a long way toward making this happen.

    If Carbine can at least get A right, maybe it won't be a problem.
    tyranade likes this.
  14. Jeuraud

    Jeuraud Cupcake-About-Town

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    So again you are not one of the 1% that this content is made for.

    Yet again you are not one of the 1% that this content is made for.

    I’m repeating this because you don’t seem to be grasping the situation. You’re beating on the wrong windmill. The Devs are not going to stop 40mans because you don’t like them. They know that only 1% of the MMO population participates in them; I know they know this because they fricken told us. They also told us that many of the Devs happen to be part of that 1%.

    The windmill you should be beating on is the 10man raid.
    Personally I think 10man is a large group not a raid, but if you want a 10man you’re going to need to sell a 10man.
    Now if all you want to do is complain about the 40man go for it, like I said before, you’re not the first one to do so, and not once have the Devs come back with a statement about questioning the 40man raid, unlike some changes that have been made.
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  15. RavenWind

    RavenWind Well-Known Cupcake

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    What if we called them 10 Man Dungeons.....OOOOOOO........AHHHH...UUMMMMM!
    Smaller groups could run them and they wouldn't interfere with the Raid Gear Progression.
  16. Convicted

    Convicted Super Cupcake

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    and as it always comes back to, the real issue is that you want quick, easy raids and a loot pinata, and that's not going to happen. There are plenty of games out there that provide this experience for you, but this game isn't one of them.
    Xorkrik, BLAPPiN and lacrimstein like this.
  17. Alverad

    Alverad Well-Known Cupcake

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    You have some valid points OP, not including the friends bit - thing is, large scale raids feel EPIC. I personally think all the trouble that comes with it is well worth it at the end. Some of my best raiding times, post BC, where in a 10 men environment, and i loved it - but the feeling wasn't the same - the sense of achievement wasn't the same, even though WoW's raid encounters only got better with time (for a while ;))

    It can be a logistical nightmare, but it just feels soooo awesome when you do succeed. Feels like a way bigger challenge exactly because of the issues you mentioned, and when you do overcome them, it's hard not to feel like a very special snowflake despite being just one of many, many people that contributed to the success.

    And 'epicness', is the one thing that has vanished from online games, and it's about time to bring it back :p
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  18. Ico

    Ico Moderator • WSC's Gentle Flower

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    Yeah, they used to be called Massively Multi-player, right? :p
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  19. Destian

    Destian Cupcake-About-Town

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    You have a gift for misinterpretation.

    I want an endgame scene that feels like adventurers in a videogame killing big monsters instead of the corporate job market.

    I referenced the SPEED of progress because, yes, that IS what determines how often poaching happens.

    I frankly don't even know if I'll stick with WildStar or not. Maybe I will and I'll raid 20 mans. Maybe I'll do nothing but PvP, but please, stop trying to slap a label on me and dismiss my point without actually arguing it.

    Quote me where I insisted they needed to rip them out of the game.

    They can make all the content for the 1% they want. I'm just pointing out the fact that they can expect a world of aggravation FROM that 1% when the rose tinted glasses start cracking and people say, "Oh, that's right, this SUCKED, didn't it?" and the same "proud 1 percenters" start crying in droves.

    Seriously, they should start setting up the buckets now...
    tyranade likes this.
  20. lacrimstein

    lacrimstein Cupcake

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    Then what are you trying to accomplish with this thread, exactly? To convince us to agree with you that 40-man raids suck? Don't like it - don't do it, this type of content is not for you - but there's plenty of other content planned, so you can play that.
    Ianpact likes this.

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