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40 mans: Not all they're cracked up to be...

Discussion in 'WildStar General' started by Destian, Nov 21, 2013.

  1. Alverad

    Alverad Well-Known Cupcake

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    Poaching happens always, it happens in real life, it happens in games - some people can easily be lured to the greener pastures, some have more sense then to jump on the first offer that comes there way - if you manage your guild well, treat your fellow gamers with respect and manage to create a fun environment to play in, it's a none issue on a large scale. There will always be individual cases, human nature I suppose - but frankly, we have never looked back at those people that decided to get a free ride then hop over to the next train that happens to be going faster at a particular time. Quite obviously they did not fit in, best of luck, lets recruit some more, and in case of WS, lets go back and beat some timers on the 20men until we do - we can still be on the top for a particular encounter, for a particular week, for a particular category. Nothing is wasted.
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  2. Destian

    Destian Cupcake-About-Town

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    Just stating my concerns.

    I truly, TRULY hope I won't be looking at WS's endgame and thinking "Oh boy, THIS again..."
  3. Destian

    Destian Cupcake-About-Town

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    There are ways to limit poaching and make it less appealing.

    If progress is mind-numbingly slow (as with vanilla) you'll see a lot of poaching happen because it's effectively acquiring the gear drops from other raid groups.

    I could be voicing my concerns for nothing (contrary to what some may think, I HOPE to be wrong), but 40 mans just brought out the absolute worst in WoW players (something I've not seen throughout Cata and MoP, FYI) and I'd be (pleasantly) surprised if we didn't see similar things happen in WS.
  4. Jeuraud

    Jeuraud Cupcake-About-Town

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    Ah I get it… you think the W* Devs are <REDACTED>ing idiots, and it’s your lot in life to keep <REDACTED>ing idiots from feeling pain. Well carry on then.
  5. atom

    atom Cupcake-About-Town

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    Sounds like WildStar isn't the game for you. Door is to your left.
  6. Convicted

    Convicted Super Cupcake

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    Nope, no aggravation here, in fact the devs are quoted as being part of that 1% and designing this content as something they also enjoy playing. So no you wont be hearing aggravation from the 1% crowd who are drawn to this game especially because of that type of content.
    Although I'm sure we'll hear whining from the other crowd that isn't skilled enough to defeat the encounters nor socially skilled enough to get along with their fellow raid-mates.
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  7. Slapstick

    Slapstick New Cupcake

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    I say, hell yeah! 40mans! About time. The best times i have ever had in gaming is in WoW and 40 raiding. The feeling of having 40 people working together week after week, working out tactics and trying new. And then boom! It finally goes down. No better feeling and a true feat of strenght.

    Molten Core always come up as the example of how "bad" 40man raiding was. But nobody talks about one of the best raids ever (atleast in my book) Blackwing Lair.
    Still to this day it stands out as one of my absolute favourite raids. Every single encounter is epic.
    For those who did it back in the day, i'm sure you will agree.

    The guild killers; Razorgore and Vaelastrasz is proof of how much more badass 40mans feel. Guilds got destroyed trying to kill them. These encounters were true tests to your skills and your ability to work together as a unit. BWL was a BIG jump from Molten Core and they can't really be compared at all.

    Killing The Lich King with 10 people, even 25 just doesnt feel right. (It's the f'ing Lich King!) You can bet your sweet ass that if it was 40 man, it wouldve felt more beliveable. And definalty more awesome. 10 and 25 just dont give me that chill up my spine when we down something new. But 40's did.

    There are good sides to 40 man raiding and bad sides. But people always tend to focus on the bad stuff, before they have even tried it.
    Try it out in Wildstar before judging. I hope everyone that feels 40 man raiding a waste of space, to go into it with an open mind, don't think about the "issues" it may have. Just try to have some fun. I know i will and so will you, if you let yourself.
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  8. CriSPeH

    CriSPeH Cupcake-About-Town

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    I wont say Wildstar isn't the game for you because there seems to be much much much more to WS than 40man raids, including opportunities to tackle smaller group content with all your bestie's!

    Many people enjoy large raids and most probably don't take any notice to most the "cons" listed, in fact they would consider some of them actual "pros."

    Me personally, I would have like to see something really new done with the large raids. On ps3 there was a game called MAG, a fps with matches of up to 240ppl I believe (120 on each side.) The game itself wasn't that good, bleck gfx, shotty mechanics and uneven maps. But it was still fun just because it tried something really different and new.

    It would be cool if something like this was added to a game like WS to truly embrace the MASSIVE aspect of the genre. Something like 3-4 simultaneous Raids involving both factions (not competitively) that if all factors could be met would result in a gigantic battle against a huge Mega Boss with upwards of 160 players all trying to take him down with the end result being server wide benefits for all.

    That would make me think of WS raids in a different way. Right now they are just an optional aspect of the game that has been done before in similar ways.
  9. snowLeopard

    snowLeopard New Cupcake

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    Hey Destian,

    I did 40-mans in WoW and I have seen literally everything you are describing. Whether the satisfaction of beating the raid was worth it or not is a different matter, but in a sense 40-man raids are necessary from evolutionary perspective. First of all, its free entertainment! Within 9 months of release there will be yells about broken boss mechanics, guild drama, class imbalance etc. I am sure you remember how WoW forums were in summer 2006. Ready yer popcorn! :) Secondly, as well as the entertainment factor, 40-mans are as much learning experience for devs as they are for the player base. It's important that the game evolves naturally, and if devs manage to get 40-mans workable and enjoyable - kudos to them. Personally I think that within couple of years popular support to 40-mans will wither to nothing, but I could be wrong and the only way to find out is to wait and see what happens.

    Edit: corrected typos
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  10. snowLeopard

    snowLeopard New Cupcake

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    Oh yes we will :) But I won't argue, I'll just bookmark this thread and dig it out a year later :)
    Destian likes this.
  11. Convicted

    Convicted Super Cupcake

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    You see people on forums post about the hardcore raiders defeating the content in 1 month and then complaining that there is nothing to do anymore. These posts are created by people who aren't doing that content, they are not created by the players who are actually in those top guilds.
    So when you see those "aggravated" threads creep up, then you need to make sure the poster is from a 1% guild who does these raids, and not just a bunch of LFR raiders who managed to throw together 40 warm bodies and can't get past the first boss.
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  12. lacrimstein

    lacrimstein Cupcake

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    You know what I don't like? PvP Arenas. I think devs are wasting their time developing those when they should be focusing on Warplots! I like Warplots more, so therefore everyone else does too! Also there are too many classes! Warrior? Dumb class, why would anybody play it? Remove it! Esper? We don't need it! In fact, remove all classes and focus on the Spellslinger! Why would anyone play any of those other dumb classes? Scrap 'em, I say!

    /sarcasm

    Seriously guys. If you don't like the idea of 40-man raids, then don't participate in them. That content is not for you. Simple as that. There are shiphands, adventures, 5-mans, 10-mans, 20-mans, housing, open-world events, single-player elder game, PvP. There is still a ton of content for you to play with if you don't like a particular content type. Why are you complaining about something nobody is forcing you to do?
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  13. Dirty Outlaw

    Dirty Outlaw Cupcake-About-Town

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    Yeah 40 mans are a pain alright but you know what, hearing 39 other people go friggen nuts after downing a boss you had trouble for weeks

    worth it.
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  14. Gunghoe

    Gunghoe Cupcake-About-Town

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    The way I see it, they do have 20 man raids. Not having the best of the best gear for the endgame you want to do should not make you feel forced to do content that you do not want to do. 20 man raid would be enough for those that do not want to go and Raid 40 man. So yea, go for it or don't. Don't try to ruin the content that people will enjoy. 40 man raids are going to be a blast for many people of the game. I fail to see the reasoning that people have to be able to do all the content, and EVERY piece of content is made for them. In passed MMORPGs I did not like crafting, thus i did not craft. Or I did not like some sort of content thus i did not do that content. Do what you like, try not to take away from others that like content that you don't like. This game is going to have solo end game, small group, big group, and Large group PvE end game. It is like some one playing only arenas, asking carbine to get rid of all the other modes, that other people enjoy. Just live with the fact that some parts of the game, you will not like. For me that may be housing depending on what you can get into it, and how mandatory the housing will become.
  15. Bazeleel

    Bazeleel Cupcake-About-Town

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    Saying someone doesn't have 39 REAL friends made me laugh :)

    I still play with people I raided with back in the WoW days. 40 man raids are awesome and I look forward to playing them again:)
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  16. Alverad

    Alverad Well-Known Cupcake

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    Sure there are - thing is, there are 2 kinds of people, those that only care for achievement and gear and those that raid because raiding is fun, achievement and gear being the cherry on the cake, not the carrot in the first place.

    Players that try to follow their own agenda are highly unlikely to consistently be successful over long periods of time.

    If you're aiming at creating a guild that will stay competitive and alive through more then just a tier or xpac, you do your best to avoid people of certain character - and it really isn't too hard to get a feeling of what a person is like after a couple of long raiding sessions with them.

    It takes time to establish your guild and it's reputation, it may mean you won't be running for that first or second top spot in whatever, or even attempting a 40 men right a way; but do some cherry picking initially, set a standard of what is accepted initially, and most ego centric, loot hunting buggers will either avoid you in the first place, or simply not make it through a trial period due to general consensus that they don't fit in in the first place.

    Been there, done that, it works - now, it may be more tricky for those with top set of skills and ambitions to always be somewhere first, but this is a tiny fraction of the raiding population.

    Also, whenever some self entitled individual, hops from one guild to another, I can't but feel sorry for that other guild, I'm weird like that - poaching can very easily turn against you, I'd even say it usually does, and it only provides a short lived benefit. And short lived benefit is not what ambitious guilds will be after in WS. It won't be enough to take 2 weeks off at xpac launch, clear the content, get a world's/region's/realm first, and forget about ambitions until the next round of raids.

    Guild mentality has to change, you'll want to strive for consistent performance over long periods of time, preferably, always. As such, you will need to think twice about how to encourage players in your guild to stay loyal. You will need to think carefully about letting a random, no matter how great of a player, person in, if you have doubts about his/hers attitude; cos in the long term, it may hurt your guild. Being the first in anything, will be an achievement that diminises with time to a point that noone will remember it, if you can't sustain your high perfrmance.

    There is only so much a game dev team can do, the rest is up to the players.

    And last, but not least - WS Circles - a great tool, for various reasons, one being filling out your raid in emergency situations. There are plenty of really good player that do not have time or simply don't want to commit to a fixed raiding schedule but will gladly hop on every now and again. They may not be familiar with an encounter, their gear might not exactly be ideal, but it can often be a make or break between having a raid or not.

    Now, pugging randoms in WoW was never an option for us, we'd simply call it a night, unless it was someone we were already acquainted with through a dungeon run or an alts raid, which we'd always fill out with pugs purposely, to:

    a. let other people on the realm see how we raid and maybe consider joining
    and
    b. it allowed us to see if there are any lonely awesome players out there, that often want to raid but maybe are intimidated by the concept of on schedule activities with a group of people they don't even know.

    6 years of raiding, and we are yet to find a better way of recruiting ;)

    Circles will facilitate all that greatly.

    As I sad, there are many , many issues with logistical side of large scale raiding, nothing that can't be overcome with a little good will and effort and I honestly think you are exaggerating the matter a little :)

    And if for some strange reason, the game is not as succesful as we hope it to be, the devs have already demonstrated an amazing ability to adapt to feedback in a way that actually makes sense.
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  17. Voorhees

    Voorhees Cupcake

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    This is becoming a pointless back and forth topic, but obviously MANY will not like nor want to have 40 man raids. We talk about the 1% that want it, but if you look at the 99% that don't this discussion will go no where lol. That's about the success rate of getting pregnant while using a condom.....

    Now just one thing that I remember to this day about the transition WoW made when removing 40 man raids. (and I was pissed)

    Our guild was one of the only ones that had cleared ANY of the bosses in original 40 man Naxxramus! You want to talk about a kick in the nuts instance. Well after the expansion they removed the 40 man and reduced the size and it became an incredibly easy raid. That saddened me and I would guess the majority of the hardcore raiding world.

    Now again to this point. Do I, myself, plan to do hardcore 40 man raids???? The answer is most definitely no. I have a family with a little girl and I know that I cannot commit that kind of time throughout a week, BUT do I think that they should be a part of MMO's..... ABSOLUTELY! If a group wants to form up, or guilds want to take them head on to accomplish something only 1% of the MMO population is going to see I am ALL about it! I will want to follow how the top guilds are doing on progression, I will want to see videos of them, and I will definitely at some point hope to at least attempt to do some of it just to feel that awful failure!

    Again, 40s aren't for everyone and Carbine knows that. This discussion is going no where and you will never take away the epic feeling that 40s were back in the day and you may never recreate that feeling again, but it is DEFINITELY worth the try!

    Hats off to Carbine/Wildstar for tackling the monster that is 40 man raiding!
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  18. Ripper McGee

    Ripper McGee Founding Member

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    [​IMG]

    Ad hominem attacks and destructive criticism ("WildStar isn't the game for you") FTL :(

    Obviously some of what the OP has stated is based both on what he has personally experienced in the past and based on human nature and actions (greed, poaching, etc...) that can't easily be accounted for through game design. There are aspects of game design, though, that could create a more positive raiding experience, such as enhancing performance, creating better communication tools, better group/raid management tools, creating a better ratio of risk:reward, managing death, respawns, etc...

    When I originally replied with "What mechanisms will be in place to emphasize fun, not just grinding and guild/raid management.?" that's what I meant. Games are meant to be fun. Obviously, "fun" is subjective, but I would personally rather play a well designed game that feels less like a job and more like a good time.
  19. iway

    iway New Cupcake

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    games are not supposed to be a second job. i never played wow for a reason. when ever i heard about raiding it was u have to spend X amount of hours per week and X amount a days a week. to me that is not fun. when u start getting in a single instance of 20+ hours a week that is a bit over board. i am hoping that wildstar 40 mans are not going to be a second job just to get a boss down. hard is fine but time is something ppl do not have alot of these days.
  20. Bnol

    Bnol Cupcake-About-Town

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    Raiding is a hobby that you decide how much time you want to spend on. Sure, there will be guilds that raid like a second job to compete for the firsts, but they choose to do that. There will be other guilds that will raid much fewer hours, but will also progress slower. It is up to the player to find the right guild with similar goals. I know I will be looking for a guild that raids 2-3 times for 3-4 hours during the middle of the week, I know we won't be going for server firsts, we could be a tier behind, but that is all the time I am willing to devote.
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