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40 mans: Not all they're cracked up to be...

Discussion in 'WildStar General' started by Destian, Nov 21, 2013.

  1. Voorhees

    Voorhees Cupcake

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    The comments about, "Well then dont raid 40 mans" and similar are pretty much right on in this aspect though. The designers have made a statement and I hope they stick with it. They said that it's meant to be for the 1% of gamers that are hardcore, that do play like a second job, that do want to bash their face in the same instance for weeks/months at a time, and are very excited for this content.

    I cannot stand the majority of the gaming population that expects every single part, dungeon, crafting system, raid, quest, leveling, environment, mounts, loot, and every other thing to cater to them and expects to be able to do and get everything. That is not the way MMO's were designed in the past and shouldn't be designed or changed to now.

    I hate hand-outs, freebies, trophies for second place, and all the other BS that happens in the world today. This is a game that is meant to try to hit a very broad spectrum of players, but that does NOT mean that every part of the game is for EVERY player that will play the game.

    If you don't like the cartoon style, the leveling, the questing, the LAS, the scifi, the raids, the difficulty, and any other thing then pick and choose what you want to do.... OR don't play it. Not every game is for every player.

    I am in no way bashing the OP for making this post, because I think that it is information that many players could use to know about when talking about 40 man raiding. In the past it hasn't been easy and at times it is definitely not very fun so I think that it's a good thing for incoming players to know, BUT that does not mean that just because players think that 20+ hours a week on the same raid is too much that it should be changed so that everyone can do. It is NOT meant for everyone and if you can't commit the time and effort then you most likely will not be apart of that (Myself included in my stage in life, see my earlier posts).

    /endrant

    TLDR: 40 mans are definitely not for everyone.... Don't cry for them to be changed so that they are...
  2. Eliat_kuni

    Eliat_kuni Cupcake

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    Everything change, evolve and is recreated and again modified. A lot of attitude in this board make it that nothing will ever change - It's the same thing about saying to someone that don't agree with you in politics to just move to another country.

    Also saying that don't play is just a self-fulfilling prophecy demonstrated by Convicted attitude, Only the pure can raid so if 40 man does not work in a year then it's because of the unpure.

    Bartle talk about 4 type of gamer. Raid is an achiever construct but the think is Bartle is on a scale nobody is 200% Achiever - Raider is a not an homogenous group and saying only the pure can raid is just a nice way to say I'm a 200% achiever (Elitism)

    But people have a degree of Socializer, Explorer and Killer and when you look through that lens you see why people might see the situation differently.

    Socializer -40 man is against the socializer because it's all business maybe before the raid or after the raid but not during the raid. Also he's right, nobody has 40 friend. Look at your job, Tell me you know all the name of your 40 coworker children, you might but you're rare. I think people also have different notion of friendship then other. I would think that socializer is not only about making joke about chuck Norris in Barren Chat, I assume they need social connection and social validation.

    Extatica made is point in telling OP that he didn't see the rare unicorn. A guild with a core group of socializer is probably the greatest thing you can get in an MMORPG - but they all go on the RP server :)

    Explorer - You need to learn the dance, and have to be sure to do the dance without any mistake - You can't check stuff because you need to concentrate on the raid. Farming is the antithesis for an explorer. Seeing the same thing twice bore them.

    Killer - They have a footing because it's a competitive environment, it's not just PVE but it's also PVP in the sense of being the best dps, tank or healer. The Achiever/Killer is the perfect min/maxer -

    Saying that, I think Carbine with doing the Path system understand that every player is different and even that 1% is different.

    We see with the explorer in having the dungeon change each week or each time you enter.
    We see with the Killer because they will provide stat about healing and dmg taken not just dps.
    We will probably see the socializer with the guild tool and the social construct more then the raid mechanic per se.

    So I hope I see everyone in WS - Carbine with lot of money mean more stuff, mean more game in the future. I hope they expand the WS universe with different genre. Imagine 4x game, YES! RTS YES! FPS, HELL NO! :)
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  3. dizko

    dizko Cupcake-About-Town

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    I can't really come in here and say that 40 man raids aren't a pain in the ass, they are. As someone who led 40 man raids in WoW it can be a dreadful and tiring process, until you start winning. Then, the rewards make it worth it. The gear was special because, not many people could get it or had it. The rewards make the process worth it in the end. It's pretty nice feeling like you've accomplished something that not all that many people had.
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  4. AcidBaron

    AcidBaron "That" Cupcake

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    A list can be made with pro's if that's your preference as you did with con's as that's your preference, one can take examples from several places and make them fit their argument either for or against it.

    The overall view of the game is to move away from WoW's and other mmo's downsize tactics, creating small clusters of groups and moving more towards larger groups and communities again. You may find of it what you want but this won't change things, claiming how it conflicts with certain things proves to us regulars how little you know of the game and how far you are now starting to stretch to make a point, overall your post would've come across better minus that last paragraph that basically made it so the post could be summed up in.

    "I currently raid 10 man and i dislike large groups as i only want to play with friends, please make it like WoW, if not it's going to fail, why because i said so"

    I come from a time were large guilds were normal, were having people in a guild you couldn't fully connect with was normal and honestly i prefer i that way as i found those guilds to be more friendly than your current small size guild existing out of "friends" that all think they are special snowflakes creating a very unfriendly scenario for anyone outside that clique.
  5. gravity lurk

    gravity lurk New Cupcake

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    as some one who raided naxx40, aq40, and kept raiding all the way to MoP, a lot of those issues lived in 25 and 10 man guilds as well. maybe not as much, but still did.

    also, there are a lot of fights in naxx 40 that when it got changed, felt completely and utterly butchered. the four horsemen was a spectacual marvel of teamwork and placement that felt so butchered in the new version.

    head hunting did happen, but usually it wasnt the core group of a 40 man that left. one or two everynow and then might of, but it was mainly the best gear outside of the core that usually left/got headhunted. some people even came with the intention of just using you as a stepping stone. a few of these issues can be fixed, others will just always happen in large scale group progression.

    also blizzard finally realized the use of having a set number for a raid. instead of trying to make encounters for 25 to 10 people, they will make a unqiue set for 20, then tune it down for the other difficulties.

    finally i wouldnt mind if they did different progression paths other then just pvp and pve. actually make and support 10man groups as well as 40 man raids and pvpers.
  6. Witless

    Witless "That" Cupcake

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    Now I haven't followed the game real close in the last few months so this may have changed, but in a word, no.

    All of that was described as being separate levels of PvE content. You could, and I'm sure some will, use that path as a way to go to see all content, and to make the next step easier, but Carbine has never stated that you have to. That's why there are elo's for all of those steps.

    As to the OP's post. I won't do 40 man's. I don't like large scale raids at all. For me it lacks intimacy with other players. I'm just a cog in the wheel. For many other folks large scale raids are the ultimate in EPIC content. For that reason I'm glad they are in. I'm also glad because having them and their rewards in a game gives me something to desire, even if I know I may never get there. That is a huge psychological element to having 40 mans in a game. It makes your game feel a little more bad ass.

    What I wish is that they had decided to make 10 man raids in place of 20. 20 is still a large raid and I thought that 40 took care of that for those players. I understand they will have Veteran modes to dungeons for the small group folks. But, I'd rather have newer content to conquer than just repeating the same dungeon on a harder mode
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  7. Mierelle

    Mierelle Cupcake-About-Town

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    This is infact incorrect

    Quote from Gortok:

    Wether this is only for the first Tier or every Tier is still unclear, but you can not just skip and move straight to the 40 man content.
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  8. Destian

    Destian Cupcake-About-Town

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    I'm quote astonished this thread has continued on this long.

    For the record, this discussion will go nowhere: The only frame of reference I have is WoW 40 mans, which generated a community that closely resembled the cutthroat headhunting tactics between Google, Microsoft and other tech giants when it came to stripping each other of the best talent.

    It in no way, shape or form resembled a group of people who just wanted to kill big monsters, which is exactly what it SHOULD have been.

    RTFP.

    I have no issue with players who want to do 40 mans if they wish to brave the logistics, etc.

    I DO have an issue with the kind of endgame community the aforementioned types of guilds generate which I've described at length and SINCERELY hope it doesn't happen here, though I can't see any reason why it won't...
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  9. nra

    nra Cupcake

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    I am going to jump right in, without reading anything but OPs post, and say that nearly everything you stated in your post can be applied to any scale of raids.

    A healer screwing up in 10man wiping a 10man raid will make 9 people angry. Same deal, different scale.

    I do not know what kind of guild you played in, but I interacted with nearly all of those 39 people (and the 10-15ish people that were on the bench). That depends on the groups of people and the "issue" can occur in close to any scale of a group of people.

    I for one enjoyed the feeling of "working" by being in a guild. It taught me a lot growing up of how the market in the real world works. When I help recruiting at my company, do interviews or anything thing like that - I find it being _just like_ when I did that for guilds.
    So apart from the fact that I enjoyed it, it also taught me a lot that became valuable when I started working.

    And you can't say say that 40mans (or any scale) is conflicting with Wildstars mechanics, because you have not seen how they are going to do raids.
  10. AcidBaron

    AcidBaron "That" Cupcake

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    Raiding will only have a large format, you'll have other endgame content to participate in if you don't like big raids. I believe adventures were going to scale up to a group of 10.

    Also if raid size determines community kindness, explain how WoW has become increasingly more toxic whilst the game has accommodated more and more to smaller groups.

    From my experience and this even predates WoW, the larger the raid format the more organisation needed, the more you act like a special snowflake the more the organizers go "Have fun being special on your own", being toxic there led to exclusion from content and seeing unlike WoW now there wasn't a raid forming every 5 minutes. It could have serious effect on how much of that endgame you got to see.
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  11. Raarsi

    Raarsi Cupcake

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    May as well throw my two cents in, which I pretty sure that's how much a wall of text is worth these days.

    I'm another veteran of 40+ player raids, and the trouble has always been the chaos factor: lack of proper raid communication, groups wrecked from a single player's positional failure, and of course the comp-crashing calamity that is the sum of 40 separate spell graphics on top of the boss attack visuals (that still don't top the agony of the graphics from the hundreds of people trying to down a fort boss in Aion).

    A hassle indeed, but not impossible when viewing the raid broken down into multiple groups. Main tanks have their group, melee-focused in their own groups, ranged-focused in their own groups, off-tanks in whatever groups they're trying to protect, and healers in whatever groups they're intended to heal. Sure it could be argued that it works only when heals can be direct-target like WoW, but that's where knowledge of raid positioning comes in. Not a fan or an array of players, but rather sectioned groups from planned positions each being lead by their own group leaders in the raid. Best reference that any seasoned WoW veteran might know is any guide on Archimonde in Hyjal (anyone else can youtube it, idc).

    Now this all can be ignored along with any likely complaints if these 40-player raids are open world rather than confined within a raid dungeon. That's the only time in which those sorts of fights can be successful while allowing players not to worry so much about all the problems of the chaos factor since those fights are based more on personal mechanic awareness rather than group coordination. It would also mean less necessity for smaller-group raids, as 40-player raid dungeons do usually require a particular mindset for cooperation attained from working in smaller groups.

    TL;DR: 40-player raids are rough, but still not an impossible task. Just don't be a <insert random redacted insulting term here> and life as a raider will be smoother.

    *Clears whiteboard* Class dismissed. :p
  12. Destian

    Destian Cupcake-About-Town

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    It's not "community kindness" that I'm referring to, here.

    It's raiding giving rise to the necessity of massive guilds that headhunt geared players from other guilds and basically function in a manner identical to corporations.

    I'm of the opinion that the current job market sucks enough already. Who wants to play a game for recreation, only to encounter ANOTHER job market once you hit max level?

    And yes, my raid experience in WoW in vanilla vs. cata was massively different in how raiding guilds recruited. Headhunting in vanilla was a daily occurrence whereas I've never seen it happen in cata/MoP.
  13. AcidBaron

    AcidBaron "That" Cupcake

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    That had more to do with in cataclysm a lot of people said "<REDACTED> it" as recruiting good players was near impossible. You had to move yourself to a populated realm and faction to get anywhere, to address that issue anything hard got nerfed into the ground rather fast.

    Also the notion of this not happening in MoP is false i know from contacts i have in the high end raiding circles in WoW they do get headhunted especially now with how casual friendly WoW has become what literally translates into the larger part of the playerbase being flat out inexperienced or bad for a lack of better word due to LFR being their main raid experience.

    So like most things you state it's all based of anecdotes what are really easy to counter with my own.

    I always find that statement amusing that people don't like such a mentality, yet they do wish a competitive environment. because for that same reason you don't join mass recruitment guilds, you want a selective group of players. This process also happens in the corporate world or are you now claiming that you just randomly invite people to come raid with you? I doubt that's the case.

    Beyond that WoW raiding for the largest part has become a joke due to it's downsizing and trying to spread to make multiple raid formats the same difficulty, where we all know that depending on fight one format will be easier than the other. Not to mention i never found 10 mans to be actual raid worthy, too small to allow the full potential of group challenges to come into play, at most if well balanced it could mimic the individual challenge at best but never the full group challenge.


    repeatedly things you bring up against a 40 man are things that happen this day in all raid formats and all the rest of your points are basically stating that vanilla wasn't hard, whats obvious considering how old the gameplay and mechanics were back than. What again has nothing to do with raid size.
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  14. Xecks

    Xecks Cupcake-About-Town

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    heh the only thing smaller raids would bring is less spots to headhunt. it wouldnt stop it at all. ive raided since vanilla and saw it in action in all the expansions since. head hunting is not an argument . if you want things to be competitive at all it is going to happen.
    that being said , i for one dont like 40 mans because all the telegraphs are probably going to be covered up by your fellow raid members. if somehow this isnt the case , it will be just fine with me.
  15. vcysong

    vcysong New Cupcake

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    None of you appear to of played anything before WoW. EQ had monstrously large raids which were multiple guilds working together. DaoC had massive raids for relics multiple guilds large and small working together. Etc etc

    For all its commercial success WoW failed pretty hard at the 'all in it together' social aspect of past MMOs and this has prevailed across every release since where it's now the norm to assume that people are self serving unsociable selfish people.

    Shame really.
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  16. Mierelle

    Mierelle Cupcake-About-Town

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    If you go back to the Esper/Slinger Live streams when they are doing the dungeon, you can only see your telepgraphs, the enemy telegraphs that will do damage to you and your groups telegraphs that will heal you. All other DPS telegraphs, that doesn't concern you, will not be displayed to you. You will also have telegraph options where you can choose which telegraphs to display and their opacity.
  17. ratthing

    ratthing New Cupcake

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    A lot of old school MMORPG 40+ man raids were scaled for 25 or so competent players carrying the rest of the group. Of course this was in a time with questionable home PC and internet connection. I assume WS 40 man raids will require 40 legit skilled participants. I am not sure we have seen new gen WoW raiding on such a large scale ever before. It will be interesting.
  18. Livnthedream

    Livnthedream Super Cupcake

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    What you don't seem to be understanding is this only happens when you raid for the reward instead of the experience itself. Whether that reward is loot, or "fame" is immaterial. And even if it is, who are you to deny those players who enjoy that kind of play? Are you being forced to join their guild? Are you admitting that your own leadership ability is so poor that you lose players to such guilds and can't keep players around? Corporations are great at being corporations, that does not mean that mom and pop shops do not and cannot exist.

    At best your entire rant is coming off as selfish. Wanting to "play with the big boys" while not having to put up with them.

    While I agree that WoW has missed many marks, especially in the sociable area, I disagree that any of them had to do with raiding.

    Mmo's are not about "skill". Any social game that attempts to be inclusive to any real degree can't be. Attempting to believe otherwise is foolish.
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  19. Kilowatt

    Kilowatt New Cupcake

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    My understanding is that many of Carbine's developers ARE from vanilla WoW and that they did learn lessons and are applying them to the design of Wildstar.
  20. Blegvad

    Blegvad Cupcake

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    Always such a touchy subject!

    I do admire that Carbine has really stuck to their guns about this and are committed to providing this content for the 1%. The thing that is hard for me to understand is that almost every other aspect of the game is reflective of current MMO development or is pushing the envelope with the exception of their commitment to this ancient practice. :)

    IMO the entire industry is trending away from this for a reason and I suspect that while there might be a short renaissance after launch I really don't see this format being a long term success.
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