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40 mans: Not all they're cracked up to be...

Discussion in 'WildStar General' started by Destian, Nov 21, 2013.

  1. Destian

    Destian Cupcake-About-Town

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    Exactly this.

    40 man raids and even larger were not done to be "teh hardcoar". They were done because it was the absolute best way of slowing player progression to a crawl because there wasn't very much in the way of endgame content.

    40 man raids are as antiquated as losing exp on death.

    You do realize Wal-Mart is killing mom and pop shops off with a vengeance, right?

    In WoW, the nature of 40 man raiding gave rise to massive amounts of headhunting, guild fracturing, etc. This died down DRAMATICALLY when raid groups were reduced in size and progression happened at a faster rate.

    And to those who say "Headhunting will always happen", of course it will, but...

    A) The likelihood of a player being headhunted away from a group of 10 players they know quite well is far, FAR lower than a player being headhunted away from a 40 man raid full of people they don't know very well.

    And

    B) The slower the progression, the more likely guilds are going to want to headhunt. At some point, the route to speediest progression will be to headhunt geared players because it's simply quicker than getting gear for some of the ones you have now.

    Of course it's all based off of anecdotes, which is why I said earlier that this discussion isn't going to go anywhere productive.
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  2. Scarzi

    Scarzi Cupcake-About-Town

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    People will headhunt if its 5,10,25,40,100,1000 man raids. The number makes no difference, if there is a slot to be filled, they will headhunt. You only reduce the amount by shrinking raids, AND with smaller raids if 5 key players leave, that guild is DONE where as in a 40-man, if 5 people jump ship, it keeps on going. Either way there is pros/cons to any number on a raid.

    People forget how much room blizzard gave in vanilla, you could do MC with 25-30 people easy. You could do AQ40/BWL with 20 good players and the rest fillers. The room for error in vanilla WoW was massive. I highly doubt WS raids will require 40 members to be amazing players.
  3. Avenged

    Avenged Cupcake-About-Town

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    Umm.. Were they done to slow progression originally? Or were they done because popular mmo's at the time had very large guilds, and raiding guilds that had 40-100 members. I am guessing it is because of the fact that back before wow LARGE guilds did raid, and it is a throwback to those times. If you look at the games that wow was competing with at the time. EQ, Shadowbane, L2, etc. There were not many games that promoted small scale raids at all. It was all large scale for both pvp and pve. Continuing that model was just wow continuing the model that mmo's from the previous 7 years had gone with.
  4. Bazeleel

    Bazeleel Cupcake-About-Town

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    So I have been reading this thread for a few days. I'll bite.

    Raiding is, at its core, and no pun intended, a hardcore feature. It is designed to challenged the player/players to be at their best and to work together in perfect sync. It's like a dance, you have to know each step perfectly or you might fall on your face or worse your partners face.

    I know that this opinion is going to anger a lot of people but hear me out.

    As gaming in MMOs has grown, evolved, and sometimes de-evolved(looks at WoW). We have seen some pretty neat I ovation when it comes to how raiding functions. Let's take some basics and look at how each has changed. Going to use WoW as my examples because I think they are what every mmo should strive for.


    *Group size*

    40 man raid group where normal for a long time, no one complained or said, "hey this is too many people". Fights were designed to challenge all 40 player at the same time. Healers had to keep 39 other people alive while making sure not to stand int the fire, apply dots when needed, or tank a boss if the calling arose.

    Back in the days or EQ and WoW people had time to raid for 4-8 hours. It was a wonderful time. I know myself and many others had a blast and killing that final boss at the end was and still is one of the most satisfying experiences you will ever have. Hearing the shouts of 39 other people screaming as ragnoros goes down after months of trying. Finally killing the lich king in naxx40 literally made me cry like a baby. We had people in vent screaming and crying because it was one of the hardest raid encounter any mmo has ever had in my opinion.

    As raids got more and more popular with guilds and players blizzard saw fit to allow more people to see just what raiding was all about. The 25 raid was born and exploded. Then the 10 main raids where tested and did even better. The more casual player still got that epic feel and were able to have just as much fun as the larger guilds.

    The small raids also, as people have mentioned, completely killed the community's that where formed in 40 man raids. I remember my guild breaking up into 2 guilds for the new content. It was really weird and one of the guilds disbanded due to the leadership being spread too thin and friendships falling out of sync. Group size is a lot more important then one might think.


    *Difficulty*

    Now this will differ from person to person. I personally like raids that spit you out after they have chewed you for a few hours. I love the challenge and am always hungry for more. 40 man raids in vanilla and TBC were hard as nails. Completing one on your server made you well known in the community and well respected.

    As the game grew blizzard had to ramp down the difficulty because they customers wanted it. The majority was the casual plates, a lot of them entitled. A lot of the wow community thought, "if I pay the sub fee I deserve this content". In a way that's true but only to a certain point. If you are paying X$ a month you do deserve that content but you still have to work for it. Just because you finish law school doesn't mean your going to get a job as bill gates lawyer. You have to work hard at it.

    That is what 40 man raids were. They rewarded those of us that put that time and effort into the game more then others did. Someone in greens should has not place in a high level raid just because he pays the same monthly fee I do. That is being a entitled ***hole and is how content is nerfed to the point of no return.


    *length vs time*

    Now a lot of discussions have crossed my path about how long raids should be or how much time they require. I will go out on a limb here and say most of you are my age and have family's and jobs. So it's safe to say we don't have a lot of time to put into a raid each night, at most 2-3 hours. So how do developers create content that is both engaging and a good time sink. One of 3 ways, third option being the best.

    The first way is to cram as much trash and pointless <REDACTED> into a raid as possible. Thus giving you the illusion of length. Never a good idea. Guild Wars 2 does this. Too much walking and a lot less fighting big bosses that matter.

    The second way is put almost no trash and pointless <REDACTED> in the raid and just give the players a ton of bosses to fight. Thus giving the illusion that you are professing quickly. Wrath of the lich king did this and the fights where unchallenging and terribly long. A long boring boss fight is a big no no.

    The third way is taking both these options and mixing them. Naxx40 or sun well are good examples. Sunwell the better of the two. Naxx has great boss battle but a lot of trash as times. The offset was that the boss battles where so hard the trash felt like a breath of fresh air at times. So a nice complement to the way it was designed.

    Sunwell had very limited trash for the most part but wonderful boss fights and you didn't feel cheated if you got to another boss quickly.

    Then things got bad. They redid naxx for wrath and made it a 25 and 10 man raid. Completely taking out the things that made it that heart pounding death cave it was known for. Seriously my guild almost quit the game after we cleared it in less then 3 weeks. Very big let down.



    So in turn 40 man raids are very important to a games development, thier community's, and the player base it self. I am not saying that 40 man raids are the only way to go. My guild a blast doing heroic 10 mans and 25 mans in wrath and TBC. My personal take it that it limits the community feel of raiding and takes away that feel of accomplishment.

    Sorry for the long read and thank you for reading all of it if you did. I am just super passionate about this and I wanted to share:)

    -Patrick
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  5. Voorhees

    Voorhees Cupcake

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    I just want to throw a comment up about "Headhunting"

    A lot of you I feel have been burned by headhunting, but was it really "Headhunting"?

    I can think of hundreds of examples of players that came to me when we were the best guild on the Horde side and tied for best on server. I wasn't actively looking for the best players from those smaller guilds and neither were any of the other GMs that I knew (Which were all of the top 3 on alliance/horde at the least).

    I had good players approach me because they were at a wall in their current guild and were tired of being held back and wanted to be able to see all of the content. That is not headhunting, that is a player looking to make himself better and moving on.

    Raiding, to me, relates to the real world workplace very well. A player starts out in their small knit guild and tries to take on the world, but after a while realizes that they are substantially better than their friends and want to move forward. They get all their attunements and gear up and then try to get in a bigger guild. That bigger guild takes them, and then the previous guild/"Friends" get upset and say that that bigger guild "headhunted" them. In the real world if I work my rear off and gain the skills to move to a bigger and better company, why would I stick with making 40k doing the same work when I could move to that bigger company and make 100k.

    I know that there are times when players could stand out and get contacted by a bigger guild, but I really think that from what I have seen "headhunting" is not an issue. It is up to the player to go where they want and if they want to leave your guild and move to a better one, then that's their call. People need to get over it. It is not up to anyone else what a player chooses to do. If a player chooses to leave whether it be from getting a better offer, or just because they want to, it is THEIR choice no one else's.

    TLDR: regardless of people thinking something is "Headhunting", it is still the leaving player's choice... not yours!
  6. Destian

    Destian Cupcake-About-Town

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    1. The source of the "difficulty" in 40 man raids came from two factors A) coordination and B) resistance stacking. No, Blizzard did not ramp down the difficulty in later raids. Heroic Ragnaros is easily 10X more difficult than original Ragnaros.

    In Molten Core, the mechanics were extremely simple. Every boss fight was a gear check, typically in the form of an AoE the boss did regularly that checked to see if everyone was wearing enough fire resistance.

    2. No, it's not a question of people not wanting to do the work. It's a question of players who couldn't sit in one place for 6 hours at a time having nothing else to do at endgame.

    The completion rates for WoW's heroic raids (at level) are around 5% or less ( and some estimates say 1.35% of all guilds will clear a heroic raid).

    Odds are, if you're posting in this thread, you haven't downed heroic Garrosh and ergo have no right to go on about how easy WoW's raids became.

    Healers did not have to keep 39 other people alive. Each healer was generally responsible for the party they were in and ONLY the party they were in (possibly another tank as well) which just goes back to my point that 40 man raiding was really just 8 parties of 5 doing things separate from each other and hoping that the other parties didn't screw up.

    40 mans are not at all important to a game's development. In fact, the devs spending time working on content that will only be seen by 1% of the population is a gigantic waste of time and resources and are likely detrimental to a game's development.

    If not having 40 mans takes away a sense of accomplishment, someone please explain to me why WoW's heroic world firsts are a gigantic deal that has even attracted corporate sponsorship for top-end guilds.
  7. Livnthedream

    Livnthedream Super Cupcake

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    Except "slowing player progression" has nothing to do with raid size. You can apply that same "must have x gear to beat the encounter" to any raid size, and in fact Blizzard has! You could argue that it was perceived more when loot drops to players were low, especially in retrospect to how it is today, but that argument is extremely weak.

    Only because they are actively trying to kill said shops. Last I checked most guilds do not make it a goal to kill all others. Remember, that is why instancing was deemed such a boon in the first place.

    As Voorhees kindly pointed out, no it really hasn't. Again, guilds will only "headhunt" when their goal is to clear for fame or loot, and not to play with the people they are with. Almost in the entirety this comes down to the leadership. If headhunting was as all pervasive as you claim then every sports team would fail, and we would not have anything close to the balance that we do.

    There is powerful draw in being part of an organization. Of being part of a team, especially when you trust the leadership to make decent calls.


    Which means you are going to stubbornly stick to your "facts" without actually giving any credence to what anyone else is saying right? If so, why post in the first place?

    I mean if you really want, I can list off, with examples, of why each of your points are nowhere near as ironclad as you seem to think they are.
  8. Witless

    Witless "That" Cupcake

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    Thanks for that info, sad to see it's changed.
  9. Rial

    Rial Cupcake

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    I pretty much agree with what OP said, especially the last two points. The difficulties of managing 40 people, high turnover-rate and how many social contacts one can keep track off, 40-man raids are bound to become a soulless job with complete strangers. If you ask me, even 20-mans are borderline.

    I - a fairly introvert person, so your mileage may vary - prefer small groups where people actually get to know each other over 20 or 40 man groups in which you struggle to even remember every name. While MMOs are supposed to be social, putting too many people together at once has a distinctly antisocial effect, and that just can't be good.
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  10. Livnthedream

    Livnthedream Super Cupcake

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    So that content shouldn't exist because some of the playerbase can't handle it?

    Which is why there are other types of content made for small groups rather than large ones. Also, you would be wrong about "large group being innately antisocial".
  11. azmundai

    azmundai Well-Known Cupcake

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    as long as there is a natural progression or a semblance of one, people will group with people in smaller groups, get to know them and for a lot of us (hopefully) we will take all of the people we meet into larger and larger groups instead of always being in 5 man clicks. That to me has always been the beauty of larger raid sizes. 25 mans were fine, but 40 mans were better. the real issue is 25 mans became obsolete because they weren't their own entity. once you have farmed your gear in lfr 10, and then normal 10 .. who the hell wants to farm another set of gear in 25 man, in the same instance?

    I think the problem is too many people try and skip the natural progression, or guild hop a lot. while I will probably zerg my first toon to 50 or 60 or w.e ... I wont be in a guild that is all server first and <REDACTED>. I'll let it come as it comes, focusing more on meeting people than meeting raid gear.
  12. Bazeleel

    Bazeleel Cupcake-About-Town

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    Its very clear that you got burned by 40 man raids have seem to have a deep loathing for them. I am sorry this happened to you.



    Fire rez stacking had zero to do with anything in MC. Did it help? You bet! Blizzard most def ramped down the difficulty of later raids. NAxx 10/25man was a joke compared to the 40 man. Even the heroic version was a poor copy. Uldar was one the only really challenging raid in wrath. ICC was just out right fun, the challenge was there but was nerfed into the ground as time went on. Also if I remember correctly, the heroic rag was cleared with in 48 hours at release of the that content. The normal content was cleared with in 24 hours. So no the heroic rag was not anywhere near as hard as the 40man.

    Also back in the TBC days people still wiped on this raid. Why? Lack of experience and understand at how the bosses worked. Even with a full group of 70s in full raid gear you could still get wiped.

    Another point I want to make is that MC was ran with with 40 man priest group during the vanilla WoW days. Showing just how much skill was needed to actually pull that off.


    I am sorry to have to say this and I mean no offence when I do. A statement like this shows great ignorance on your part. The mechanics of MC alone, not even going to get into BWL, were amazing and pushed players to the limits of their understanding of the game. Again with that fire rez statement. I think I can safely say that you guild either was never able to clear this raid or you never even faced the first 2 bosses in 40man MC. You didn't need any fire rez to kill them or most of the other bosses in MC.



    Yes and no. Yes on the part that 6 hours was simply too long as people got older and started having families. Lets face it most of us have been raiding or gaming for years and we grew up with it and so the game devs had to find ways to make them less time consuming.

    No on the part that they made it too easy to get end game gear. The content got dumb'ed down in cata and at the end of wrath. I have yet to play the pandas because well....pandas. I do hear good things about the raids in MOP. Cata was some of the worst raiding content I have ever seen. It was a slap to the face at the players who stuck around with the game for so long. Blizzard saw a major drop in the player base and had to stop catering to the entitleds and the players who clearly had no business raiding.



    Please don't give out false percents and clam them as facts. The only one those knows these numbers is blzzard.



    No i haven't played MOP. I dont have too play that exp to give my thoughts and opinions on what I experienced in WoW during my 8+ years of playing. As I said before I have heard some great things about the raids in MOP I hope they have gotten back to being challenging and more about team work and less about free epics.



    Yeah...thats what raiding has always been about...working as a large group in smaller groups to get to the same goal....I am not sure what your point in here. I am starting to think that you have never seen a raid healer before. Druids and shamans where very well known for being able to keep 40 people alive if they where good enough.

    Shamans could tank back in the Vanilla days and my rogue was able to tank Black Temple and a few other TBC raids before they nerfed it.




    It actually was and lead to some of the great 25mans that we saw in TBC and Wrath. They learned from them and from there were able to create better raids with less people. They shaped the game into what is it today.


    It wasn't just heroics that got guilds like ensidia or paragon sponsorship. It was back in vanilla as well. Company saw that a ton of people where watching them and they where popular. Therefore marketing took over and they sponsored teams that there very good and popular to get people to buy their products. It just took off from there.

    Not to mention WoWs player base is in the millions. You are giving players gear and swag in exchange for hundreds of thoughts of dollars customer profits. Its honestly just simply marketing.


    Your statements really haven't shown to me that you know anything about the older raids or what they really involved. Like it or not they shaped your raids you are not playing in MOP. I am sorry that you got burned by the older gen content but that is no reason to make up silly statements or act like you have completed them.
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  13. Vyril

    Vyril Cupcake-About-Town

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    What is it with people? There is content in the game that gives the best rewards in the game and you're not going to do it for WHATEVER your reasons are.

    Stop trying to make your argument justified on personal experiences that the people that like the 40 man can say the opposite about.

    Most of the people that complain are just mad they won't get the gear.

    To be honest I also think all the negative posts about these raiding guild issues are created by the players that are speaking this way.

    My guild loved raiding 40 man. They loved the guild and talk 10 years later about how much fun they had in 40 man. Then after saying that, they also said the new WoW raids suck because there is no challenge.

    People will love the 40 man raids even if you do not.

    I for one ran a 40 man Raid in Vanilla and by far the most challenging, exciting, dedicated, depressing, anxious, and most FUN I've ever had in a MMO. Every other MMO and all the WOW 25man 10 man was <REDACTED> and watered down.

    For all the haters. Please don't apply to my guild because you want loot. Come correct or not at all.

    My players loved my guild so much they made a video of it back in the day.

    We started off as a group of PvPers that got Grand Marshal (Originial) Then decided to do Raiding and ended up being one of the top Raiding guilds on our server. I'm Enigma in the video.

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  14. Livnthedream

    Livnthedream Super Cupcake

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    What? The only place that you "needed" fire resist was for Rag, the rest of Molten Core was actually easier without it as the bosses died faster. Even for Rag it was not really required, but was simply much easier with it as it reduced the amount of mana drained by the adds. Similarly, it made it much easier to keep tanks alive if they were geared in Fire resist, but that was due more to how aggro worked at the time than anything else.

    What is truly funny is you are basing your "40 man mechanics were simple" on Molten Core. Of course as a Freshman outing the mechanics were going to be simple, especially when so much of it was taken from Everquest. Take Chromagus and Nefarion. The back half of AQ40. The last half of each wing+Kel'Thuzad. All every bit as "complex" mechanically as anything you see today.

    Couple issues here, the first being it depended on who you had as your healing team, especially when it came to the differences between Paladins and Shamans. Kings vs Windfury made for very different requirements when it comes to healing, not to mention cleansing totem. There is a reason that Blizzard just said "f it" and gave them to both sides instead of trying to balance them.

    The other huge one being, you see such fragmentation today in 25/10. There are too many mechanics that only select people really need to worry about, be it because of strat, or through design.

    So we should ditch housing, and rp support, and....

    Implying that "World firsts" during the 40 man era were not similarly regarded. After all, one followed from the other.
  15. Destian

    Destian Cupcake-About-Town

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    The developers are responsible for creating the environment in which the players exist.

    In some MMOs, they create environments in which players can endlessly gank those lower level than themselves.

    In the case of 40 man raiding, the devs create an environment that encourages players to be extremely opportunistic. One 40 man horde is very much like the next, after all.
  16. Brisselio

    Brisselio New Cupcake

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    How exactly is it a problem if players are looking to be the best of the best? It happens all the time. No matter the raid size people will guild hop to get further if they can. If you loathe 40 mans so much you obviously shouldn't think of doing them
  17. Destian

    Destian Cupcake-About-Town

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    Tell that to all of the dungeons before MC that dropped FR gear, the FR librams people farmed for and the guilds that required a certain amount of FR before recruiting you.

    If that's honestly what you think, you've not seen much of "today's" raids at all.

    That's actually why Bliz is adding the mythic 20 man difficulty mode.

    You're arguing the wrong thing, here.

    He was suggesting that 40 mans were somehow "necessary" to the development of a game, when nothing could be further from the truth.

    Housing and RP support aren't strictly necessary, either, but they're likely to be enjoyed by a far larger portion of the playerbase than 40 mans.

    Again, arguing the wrong thing.

    I was pointing out that the 10 man heroic world firsts are massively celebrated to the point where I don't think he has any grounds to say you NEED 40 people for a raid to feel epic.

    Also, I remember downing bosses in 40 mans. I remember the first time we killed Onyxia. It wasn't all that epic.

    If people remember these first time kills as being THAT big of a deal, how bad was your raid and how many times did you wipe, exactly?

    For our raid, a new boss every other week was pretty average and wasn't "screaming into the microphone" worthy by any stretch...
  18. Pmizzrym

    Pmizzrym Cupcake-About-Town

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    40 mans are needed because the point off mmo's is to create community

    40 mans required a guild to be formed, you know like a band of adventures joining forces to go slay a Dragon?

    Why 40 and not 20?

    Because part of the challenge should be to organize such a large amount of people, it is inherently good for the community to feel membership to a guild that they contribute to.

    It's how people make friends in this genre, and nothing will change that.
  19. Destian

    Destian Cupcake-About-Town

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    Because I question the wisdom behind including them in the game when they're an antiquated throwback to a time when only no-lifers roamed MMOs, on par with losing exp and dropping items on death.

    Now, maybe, JUST maybe, Carb has designed some extremely interesting 40 player mechanics into these raids, but I'm still skeptical.

    And you think what I've said here is bad? Just wait until the raids are actually released and all of the players who think they're "hardcoar" discover that they, in fact, are not and then come to these forums to whine about it.
  20. Destian

    Destian Cupcake-About-Town

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    40 mans don't create a community any more than hiring 40 people into a company turns them into a community. Odds are, they're only doing it for the rewards anyway.

    Actually, no, it doesn't.

    I think your heart is in the right place, but anyone who says they're "good friends" with 39 other people probably means like "facebook friends".

    I felt an INFINITELY stronger sense of community in my raiding guild in cata doing 10 man raids. 40 man raids has absolutely nothing to do with community.

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