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40man Raid Content Rant

Discussion in 'WildStar General' started by snappyllama, Aug 23, 2012.

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What raid size do you prefer? Pick any you would be happy with...

  1. 8

    29.2%
  2. 10

    75.0%
  3. 25

    58.3%
  4. 40

    41.7%
Multiple votes are allowed.
  1. snappyllama

    snappyllama Cupcake

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    I know a bunch of folks met the rumors of 40man raid content with glee. I feel dread. Here's my rant:

    1. Cat-herding, sweet Jesus, cat herding... I know that it makes sense if killing a monster with ten folks is awesome, then killing it with four times must be four times the awesome. But what makes 40man raids challenging isn't the game mechanics. It's just the organization before/during fighting. And it takes sooo long to get those communications out, check on if everyone understands, see if Jimbo discoed again, etc.

    2. Who are all these people... I love getting to know folks. That's why I play MMOs. But there is no way to get to know 40 people simultaneously - especially since no one except the raid uber-lords can speak (or actual game play will never get started - see point one above).

    3. Help me, I'm being repressed... the sheer size and task of coordinating 40 people means that there must be raid uber-lords if there is a hope of success defeating even semi-challenging content. Everyone must listen to and quietly follow the uber-lord's directions. Of course, all raids regardless of size need a leader. It's just that smaller raids allow for/require more contribution from everyone in the group. This often results in unorthodox approaches. For sure, a lot of them end up being hysterically bad. But crashing and burning due to the wrong idea is often more fun than initially winning following a preset solution that simply must be followed since 35 other people already know it and do not have time to listent o everyone's thoughts.

    4. I know a lot of people and I have the Sword-of-Many-Folks-on-Vent (so there) ... In other popular MMOs (you know the ones), it was well-known that the difficulty of the raid is inversely proportioned to the size of the raid group. However, the rewards were always greater for the size of the raid.

    10: Everyone has to pull his/her weight to down a boss​

    25: Most folks need to be there, some can be staring off into space, contemplating life goals, watching Firefly rerun again​

    40: Someone is delegated as a fluffer to WAKE-UP and take roll-call​

    Of course, this is just my opinion.

    I realize that I'm not the only audience that Carbine should be courting nor do I want my rant to anger those that disagree with me. "Don't tell me how to play" and the like.

    My hope is that if Carbine does decide to incorporate really, really big raids that they recognize that small is beautiful too. And we small-time folks deserve the same level of phat lewts.
  2. Black Wolf

    Black Wolf Super Cupcake

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    I don't see that as a problem. At work you don't know everyone as well, but still work is done. Besides that, I'm very active in guild chat and talk to almost everyone. So I know a lot of people in my guild, if not all.

    Two two's? Anyway, line of command. Assign officers who are class or role leaders. Works perfectly. Wars have won because of that! ;)

    A good leader and officers know their slackers. Easy to get rid of.
    SiegaPlays likes this.
  3. gyves

    gyves Cupcake

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    I agree with you snappyllama. My only disagreement is that I believe groups should be in multiples of three as there are only three roles. I was hoping that dungeon raid sizes would be no larger than fifteen. Hopefully the 40 man raids are exclusively for outdoor content.

    Wildstar has not shown much by way of content, which also means they have yet to explain how they will alleviate problems with the raiding model. For example, how will they go beyond the unspoken main tank (and perhaps two tertiary tanks) rule within raids? How will they ensure dungeons are equally challenging for all players within the group?
  4. JarNod

    JarNod WildStar Haiku Winner 2012 / Lead Guinea Pig

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    I like that the 40 man content requires more coordination because of the "catherding" aspect. While I hate that sometimes you can't find enough people to get started, I think the benefits outweigh the responsibilities. Of course, I wasn't an officer when I was raiding 40 man content, so maybe I'm talking out my arse.

    It really isn't that hard to get to know 40 people, though usually it ends up being that you only need to know the officers, the raid leader and your class mates (meaning others of your class). Some people are a little shyer than others, and that is detrimental to getting to know everyone, but generally the raiders are on the most, so you shouldn't have a problem interacting with them in the game. Most guilds are over 40 people even if the raid content doesn't require that much.
  5. Black Wolf

    Black Wolf Super Cupcake

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    In Molten Core (WoW's 2nd raid) we had 5-6 tanks. A main tank, off-tank and 3-4 tanks that handled adds and trash. It all depends on raid design.
  6. JarNod

    JarNod WildStar Haiku Winner 2012 / Lead Guinea Pig

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    What was WoW's first raid then?
  7. Black Wolf

    Black Wolf Super Cupcake

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    Onyxia. She was one awesome dragon. Mainly because the lore introduced her through solo quests and dungeons. She was part of a huge questline. Which made it more awesome to be able to kill her. I'm proud to kill her first on my server back then.
  8. pseudo

    pseudo Podcaster

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    I am unsure of how effective 40-man raiding can be. I think it would be flipping amazing if there was 40/20/10-man raiding systems, similar to the way WoW does 25/10.

    I agree that 40 man raids seem that they would lose the closeness of the people in the raid, but it would also make it crazy epic (when you weren't busy pulling your hair out in frustration dealing with disconnects and people not paying attention). I'm interested in trying it, although I'm not sure it would be my favorite raiding style. Also to be clear, I think its completely possible to lead a 40-man raid and not have it be like herding cats -- it comes down to how well raid leaders can delegate.

    EDIT: I still think the perfect size raid is Rift's size: 20. More selective than 25's and bigger than a 10.
  9. Black Wolf

    Black Wolf Super Cupcake

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    A disconnect isn't that catastrofic when you have 40 men. ;) And people who don't pay attention ... /kick or even /gkick after several times.
  10. pseudo

    pseudo Podcaster

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    This is all well and good if you are operating in a social vacuum, but I have seen a cadre of good players leave a guild before because their friend got kicked out. At the time, I was pretty much decided on that line of thinking, but when we couldn't clear up to our progression the next week, I started re-thinking just what it means to play the political game that is raid/guild leading. It's never quite that simple -- at least in my experience! Also you're probably right... you can probably clear 40-man content w/ 38 :p
  11. snappyllama

    snappyllama Cupcake

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    I fixed my issue with numbering. The count was very disappointed with me. :)

    My biggest concern is that the headache and victory belong disproportionately to the raid leaders. For me, the joy of killing pixel monsters as a group comes from doing it as a group... Not as the commander of an army. Not as a pawn of the king.

    My other gripe is that smaller raid sizes are in effect more difficult, but they normally have lesser rewards. I wouldn't mind if Carbine has many options for raids, but I suspect that they will follow the standard practice of giving out the fanciest items to the largest groups. This is normally done as the carrot to attract players into bothering with the coordination of large raids. If 40mans are that much fun, why do they need a carrot at all?

    I'm wondering how this would work with the typical player population. Most people tend to play a dps role. Often, it's hard to find any tanks at all. Perhaps they could do what some fight mechanics have done in the past: create a need for a non-traditional tank or healer out of the dps. Example: a mob that cannot attack if it is being hit with a fire spell. TADA- the mage tank is born.
  12. Black Wolf

    Black Wolf Super Cupcake

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    Yeah, I know what you mean Pseudo. It's not that I guild kick anyone without warning or something. They have to really misbehave to get one. At the same time, it's all about getting people with the mindset as yourself into your guild. I don't allow slackers in mine for example. They just don't belong then and there is another guild out there that will suit their play style better.

    Keeping a rotten apple in your guild will only infect other members. I'll remove the rotten apple to keep the guild healthy. In the long run it's better.
  13. Black Wolf

    Black Wolf Super Cupcake

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    We will have multiple specs. All will have dps specs. So a dps can tank or heal if it is needed.
  14. snappyllama

    snappyllama Cupcake

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    For sure, that helps balance things in a perfect world. Most of the MMOs I've played have a multiple specs but finding people willing to tank is still difficult.
  15. pseudo

    pseudo Podcaster

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    I think this is ultimately where a lot of the discussion comes in for me. I have kept terrible people around because they filled a role that I did not have a readily available replacement for -- this is why I believe most (not all!) tanks are premadonnas :p -- and have paid the price personally.

    I tend to have a pretty bombastic personality (that's probably already come through here) but pretty easy to get along with. The singular issue that I think most raid guild leaders are left dealing with is getting people to work hard enough to get something done. This includes getting players who perhaps wouldn't normally be interested in min-maxing up to speed, and also (perhaps even more difficult) getting the quiet raiders more comfortable communicating with the rest of the group.

    Ultimately, the way I always think about a guild leader's role is similar to that of a gardener. You have to tend and nurture to your plants, but you also have to be able to pull out the weeds... the problem is that it's not always so easy to tell who's a plant and who's a weed. (Yay forced metaphors!)

    Similarly, this has me thinking about specializing raid leading and guild leading... they perhaps aren't as linked as I have thought in the past.
    snappyllama likes this.
  16. Black Wolf

    Black Wolf Super Cupcake

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    It's all about how you recruit imho. When you raid you have to flexible. Sometimes you have to do things you don't like. You do it because of the benefit of the group/team/guild. Those people you want to have in your guild. You want to search and get those people. The questions I always ask when I talk to someone who wants to join are: "What roles do you want to play in the guild?" and "Are you willing to play another role if that is needed?". Again, it's how you recruit and what people you allow in your guild. As a leader you can decide that on your own. If you are in a guild as member you can always find another one that suits you more.
  17. pseudo

    pseudo Podcaster

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    This is a huge problem with the majority of raid leaders I have raided under. The second your raiders start to feel as though they are just the leader's pawns, the raiding environment will deteriorate rapidly. Raid leaders do get a disproportionate amount of failure and victory, but I think that's true of anybody at the helm of anything. The important part is keeping players engaged in the group.
  18. Black Wolf

    Black Wolf Super Cupcake

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    I just remove that person without looking of they can be missed or not. I won't allow them to 'bribe' me that way. I'll fix the problem afterwards and explain to my members why I removed the misbehaving person. If that means we have to cancel a raid because of it, then that is how it works. I'm not the one that disappoints the other 39 raiders, it is the one who has been kicked.

    And leading a raid is totally different then leading a guild. I always had people for that. And they were always officers. While raiding, the raid leader is the leader. Even I listen to him and follow his orders. Outside the raid, I'm that guy. Both roles need different skill sets. I'm really bad on keeping the overview in a raid, but I can follow orders or directions. I see a raidleader more as a general on a battlefield and a guild leader more as a diplomat.
  19. Chrilin

    Chrilin Cupcake-About-Town

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    My preference.... I like smaller raids. The rest is simply opinion or desire for certain content for Wildstar.

    Back in the day when WoW had the huge raids I remember a common argument over loot on the forums.

    One of the main points of contention was 25-40 mans are harder and thus deserve better loot. That mentality was pervasive for a very long time. This I feel is simply not true. << This is my biggest gripe.

    Yes... Logistically the larger raids are harder to coordinate but, not everyone has to be performing at peak to down a boss. (IE you can loose a few peeps and still win) In a 10 man there is very little room for error. The latter being the main reason I like smaller raids.

    I want both large and standard size raids for Wildstar but with a caveat. I firmly believe I am putting in the same amount of skill into a 10 man as the larger ones. Soooo.... gimme the same phat l00tz! ;)
  20. Black Wolf

    Black Wolf Super Cupcake

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    I do not raid because I get phat loot. I raid because of the challenge of the fight and the joy I'm having when we finally manage to kill the ****er. Yes, the loot is important. It helps me to get better stats and make my life easier while attempted to clear the raid. But it is not my main drive.

    The next raid the loot drops are better and the gear is more powerful. Your old gear is replaced. The enjoyment of killing those bosses you can never take away from me.

    I agree that in smaller raid groups the challenge is greater, less room for error. But you can make it harder if you design the content around it. I preferred playing 10 men in wow as well. But my best memories are from the vanilla raids. Giant groups, lots of trash, multiple evenings to clear the raid. The hugeness of all that. I spend months in Molten Core. When we reached the end boss Ragnaros we had to spend weeks to farm gear with fire resists to be able to survive that encounter. And I can't descibe what I felt when we finally killed Ragnaros. My head explodes again when I think about that moment.
    SiegaPlays likes this.

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