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40man Raid Content Rant

Discussion in 'WildStar General' started by snappyllama, Aug 23, 2012.

?

What raid size do you prefer? Pick any you would be happy with...

  1. 8

    29.2%
  2. 10

    75.0%
  3. 25

    58.3%
  4. 40

    41.7%
Multiple votes are allowed.
  1. Kirathis

    Kirathis Cupcake-About-Town

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    This is a pretty tough question for me. I participated in some 40 man Molten Core raids and I must admit that they were pretty fun once I got the hang of what I was supposed to do. I agree that it really comes down to design. 40 man has its challenges as mentioned with the herding cats reference. I have also lead many 25 and smaller raids and managing the people alone tended to make it more enjoyable. For one thing, there is a LOT less time spent discussing loot after each kill.

    I do think that the smaller raid groups are more conducive to having a team that gels and really becomes a strong group. If you are trying to have a dedicated team, the smaller groups are also a lot easier as there are fewer schedules to try and manage. At the same time, the 40 man opens up the possibility to substitute more often and get to know more people.

    As Black Wolf mentioned, giant groups and lots of trash means a lot more time in a raid. This can be good and bad. I for one get extremely bored killing random trash that was added to the raid just to slow down progression. Lets face it, most trash does not present a difficulty issue. 40 mans can be great but they need more than the "kill these 30 pointless mobs to get to this boss" type of mentality. While the epic feel of a multiple night raid is a great feeling, it also presents more scheduling issues with more and more people. Being a successful 40 man raid leader is a true art and a test of patience. Either that or those who take it on are just plain crazy.

    If they do decide on 40 man content, it would be nice if there was some type of in-game management system to help with looting. Lots of the 40 man raids resorted to a DKP type system for assigning loot wins. It might be nice if there was a management tool available in game to assist with that. Maybe a way for the game to assign points based on participation of the members. With Carbine wanting a more social game, it is much more likely we would see large guild runs again rather than the random 25 man raid finder system. That means a much easier looting to manage via a points type system. If Carbine then provides a process for displaying the available loot in a raid, raiders could bid on the item ahead of time based on their available points. If the item drops on the run, the game automatically assigns the loot based on the bids. Just a thought.

    Ultimately, I have had more fun in the smaller raids with a great group of people than being part of a giant 40 man cluster.
  2. Billco

    Billco Cupcake-About-Town

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    I must admit, I do miss the old EQ days where 40+ of us would turn up to take down a dragon or a god or something. Makes me sad I can barely remember those days.

    Since then I nearly always found myself in casual/small guilds of rl friends. Up until the end of my wow career when I bounced into a couple casual guilds when all my friends had moved on.

    I don't like the hardcore you must raid 4 times a week at this time to be in this guild, but then I'm also somewhat bored of the casual nobody talks/communications/does anything together types that I found myself in, where people would join...<REDACTED> about not raiding (but of course, never try to start anything) and then eventually leave for another guild.

    I think if I found myself in that perfect middle guild, where I could raid if/when my schedule allowed but could also just kick back and chat and help the odd peep out with a quest, then 40 man raids would be great to get into.

    Its definitely a tough call to make.
  3. Chrilin

    Chrilin Cupcake-About-Town

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    That would be a very nice thing to have. It would do two things.

    1. Make it easier to distribute the loot. (obviously) :)

    2. If they built in a rule set with it it could set a standard to follow for most players as well.
    (no more arguing over what loot system was being used and it's merits)
  4. Billco

    Billco Cupcake-About-Town

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    That ties in with something I wanted to discuss...hmmm infact i'll make another thread for it
  5. SirRobin

    SirRobin Cupcake-About-Town

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    Personally? I've never been much of raider. I just could never find the spare time to give that kind of commitment to a game.
  6. Black Wolf

    Black Wolf Super Cupcake

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    Lately yes. Sadly. But the trash in Molten Core wasn't easy. They felt like mini-bosses and were really tough. I lost count on how many times we wiped in there on trash. And there was a lot of trash. It was a reward itself that you were able to get to the next boss, haha. It was epic.

    If that means a RNG ... hell no. Make it mandatory and I consider skipping raiding entirely.
  7. Chrilin

    Chrilin Cupcake-About-Town

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    As in Reverse Engineering? Not sure I follow. I was thinking along the lines of a tool used to make distribution of loot easier for raid leaders. . like an interface with drag and drop.
  8. Black Wolf

    Black Wolf Super Cupcake

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    Random Number Generator. Or most of the times they call it rolling. It's the most unfair loot distribution system out there.

    Ow, and drag and drop would rock.
  9. Chrilin

    Chrilin Cupcake-About-Town

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    Ahhh... Yeah a random number generator would totally blow lol.
  10. Billco

    Billco Cupcake-About-Town

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    Shock & Horror - i disagree again :)

    I've never been a fan of DKP systems. I only really know that and RNG.

    RNG is a fair crack of the whip for everyone. If you raid more often, then you get more chances at rolling on an item.

    I know there's always going to be that risk that noob_01 will come on his first raid and get that epic sword that you've been after for months. But, if your in a fixed group and a good group most people will pass on it if they know you've been desperate for it for ages. (at least, we always did)

    DKP is a bit too hardcore for me, but then as I said before I havn't been in a "raiding guild" since like EQ1 - but I think it deters the casual raider or the first timer because they are going into it knowing damn well they won't get bugger all cause they can't buy anything and that it will take them FOREVER to get the stuff they want.

    I know thats kinda the point of a hardcore raider vs a casual but it is nice to go on a random raid knowing you've got the same chance as anyone else.
  11. JarNod

    JarNod WildStar Haiku Winner 2012 / Lead Guinea Pig

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    If your guild is pulling a newbie through the raid, it's most likely that you are already decently geared. That means it will be much more likely that the newbie will get the new item while spending little to no DKP. It also ensures that the person who has been there every raid for the last 6 months doesn't get shafted because some inconsiderate guildie decided he wanted to roll on it too.
  12. snappyllama

    snappyllama Cupcake

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    I've been lucky enough to raid with a tight group of folks. When we kept it to smaller groups, a combo of rolling and self-imposed loot council worked for us. Since we kept the same folks, we always had the attitude that the loot will drop again. It helped that within that smaller group, we all put the same level of min/maxing into our characters... so we all felt equally invested in our characters. This simply hasn't been the case when I've raided with larger groups.

    Oh, and don't listen to anything Chrillin says. He liked the pretty epics but always happily passed on them if they were a bigger upgrade for someone else. Though he preened about in his big bear shoulders (WoW reference: from ZA playing an enhancement shammy if you need a visual). God, he loved those things.

    As far as loot distribution systems go, the best one I have found is the one that works for the group. DKP, suicide kings or loot councils are all fine if everyone is on board with it. The real trick is picking something that works for all involved.

    The larger a group becomes, the more formalized the distribution process needs to become. It's another layer of bureaucratic complexity that makes me favor small raids (see I'll get it back on topic ;)).
  13. Black Wolf

    Black Wolf Super Cupcake

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    That's why you should establish loot rules from the beginning of the guild. Don't make this an afterthought. Ow <REDACTED>, tomorrow we have a raid. What shall we do? It's a source for drama and people will scream for your head on the block.

    I agree that a rng works better in smaller raid groups with all of the people know each other and it one happy family. But how larger the group, the more of a problem it will be.

    Besides all that, an rng isn't fair. Not at all. Everyone who says that it is, hasn't been burned by it.
  14. SiegaPlays

    SiegaPlays "That" Cupcake

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    If WildStar goes about the same route, it still means a little off the mark for having 20% tanks in raids, to proportionally fit the 20% tanks used for groups. It suggest that there will be a tank shortage for grouping, or half the tanks will be on offspecs to get groups faster, offspec tanks that may not be a good as someone with tanking as primary focus.

    seriously hope the same set of gear gives bonuses depending on spec, because dragging around pvp set, heal set, dps set and a tank set is just fubah, unless wardrobe is not part of the normal inventory. Add crafting and harvesting gear. Vanguard has a lot of stuff to teach, when it comes storing different types of gear for different types of game content.

    But we'll see.
  15. SiegaPlays

    SiegaPlays "That" Cupcake

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    I am willing to tank, I am just not willing to put up with <REDACTED> from people, who expect the same coordination from me in the tank role, as they have come to expect from someone with tanking as their primary. Which again means I am not getting enough practice, so it is even a bigger problem, when I do switch into tanking mode :p
  16. SiegaPlays

    SiegaPlays "That" Cupcake

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    In WoW we used EPGPlootmaster and it worked really well, the best I have seen so far.

    The loot and point earnings was transparent - set point per 30 minutes on current raids, first time guild kill gained extra bonus, little lower points for 30 minutes spent on farming content, people on wait list got the same points for being available, meaning they could not commit to something they could not leave immediately. Usually people on wait list got rotated in during the halfway break (4 hour raids, about 15 minutes break after 2), unless the raid was in dire need of specific roles.

    Main spec paid full price for loot, if no main spec needed, then offspec could for half the price, if no offspec wanted it, then alt specs (on farm runs only), otherwise it went for pitance on a greed role and sometimes people passed it to someone elses alt. BOEs went into the guild bank, if someones main spec needed it for upgrade, they could buy it for ep, if someone wanted it for an alt, they could buy it at discount to the price the BOE would otherwise get for the guild coffers on the AH.

    The ep decayed, so someone going on an announcement absence for three months would not be able to get the next piece of loot dropping the day of their return, unless noone else needed it.

    People could make up for raid absence per week by turning in mats for consumables or the consumable themselves or stuff to sell ~ equal the raid time spent before server reset (Tuesday, maintainance day), where the decay of 10% was run. Someone going on vacation could farm up their lost ep before or after, if they where so inclined.

    The guild coffers went into making raid consumables (food, enchants) and buying guild perks and guild paid gear repairs during raids.

    That said, I love the big raids for the sense of coordination and teamwork. I also love the small ones for pretty much the same reasons, but also because usually they happen with friends, and we have a good time.

    Something like LFR I enjoy most in big raids, because there is always going to be someone who just don't know the encounter and moves wrong, someone who failed to gear up for it, someone who do not have the skill to put out a decent dps for the raid. Because we all know, that a encounter which enrage requires a set amount of damage per second in average from the raid to get a dead boss, if someone only does half the average required, then it means someone else has to be doing that much more than the average - and that is disregarding any mechanics that heals up the boss, when someone does something wrong, or dries out the mana pool of the healers, when someone else is doing something wrong, or whatever else mechanics there is to make the encounter interesting.

    Big raids on farm content - which is the level I consider LFR on the average, besides being a good supplement for gear progression for those not usually raiding due to real life commitment etc - is more forgiving about people not understanding their role in a raid. Farm content in a guild is also a good place to teach members their role, mechanics and such, if they do want to learn.

    Those who do not want to learn, who do not make an effort to improve their a-game, do not belong in a raiding guild unless their rank says friends and family (no pun intended for the alpha team on WildStar :p)
  17. Chrilin

    Chrilin Cupcake-About-Town

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    Ah yes I understand.... I was simply replying to Black Wolf about a RNG being mandatory. I still say that would suck.

    It's a perfectly usable tool in groups of friends or casual raids if they want to use an RNG. My guild used it all the time.

    As far a big or co-op raiding (other guilds or pugs) I'm really not sure. I never liked dkp but, that's the only one I have any experience with.
  18. Chrilin

    Chrilin Cupcake-About-Town

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    I've never heard of it. Sounds interesting though.
  19. Dyraele

    Dyraele "That" Cupcake

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    EPGP, is that like the heebie jeebies?:p
  20. SiegaPlays

    SiegaPlays "That" Cupcake

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    RNG not usefull in a regular big team that wants to progress, too many ways for it to turn bad and break into guild drama. Smaller friends teams might work it out, but I can't see 25 or 40 mans, excluding extras, survive with a pure nbg rng roll.

    Someone could be loosing on all rolls while someone else wins everything they roll on, which is not very usefull for improving group overall. RNG is a hard mistress.

    A ep/dkp system run by a guild with loot integrity, that is transparent and active people are rewarded by the merit of participation, meaning including decay, is the only useful way to run it fairly in a progression committed guild.

    imho, though I don't do humble

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