1. Hey Guest! If you're more than just a WildStar fan and want to keep up on the latest MMO news, reviews and opinion pieces then I'd like to suggest you visit our sister site MMO Central

40man Raid Content Rant

Discussion in 'WildStar General' started by snappyllama, Aug 23, 2012.

?

What raid size do you prefer? Pick any you would be happy with...

  1. 8

    29.2%
  2. 10

    75.0%
  3. 25

    58.3%
  4. 40

    41.7%
Multiple votes are allowed.
  1. SiegaPlays

    SiegaPlays "That" Cupcake

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2011
    Likes Received:
    454
    Trophy Points:
    83
    Location:
    Denmark
    It has all types of configurations, what I mentioned only covered how it worked with my guild :p
    http://www.curse.com/addons/wow/epgp_lootmaster

    More than a year since I used it, so I do not know if something else better came to replace it, but I doubt it very much.

    It also have an additional addon for placing need/greed/remarks to the master looter/loot channel/guild (depends on configuration), that raid members can use instead of typing out their bid in a whisper command to master looter - kind of makes the looting really efficient and still transparent and the risk of having errors by mistyping very little.

    When someone got the loot, the master looters addon sent a message to the guild chat with item link and cost - mostly the same people, who was in the raid, but there was sometimes others, who wanted to see what dropped, so it was a neat extra feature, that removed some of the hassle being a master looter.

    If I ever get the time to commit to a set raiding schedule - well, I guess that means if I ever join a european server :p - I'll be looking for one that use EPGP and loot transparency. A guild that fails on a loot policy is not my thing, I like to be able to see that the guild looks honest and rewards on participation and not favoritisme.
  2. Billco

    Billco Cupcake-About-Town

    Joined:
    Jul 23, 2012
    Likes Received:
    31
    Trophy Points:
    28
    Well to clairfy. Whenever we did RNG it was generally, you've already won something so no more rolling for you until everyone's got something ;)

    I agree though, I guess I just was lucky with who I ran with that it worked well.
  3. snappyllama

    snappyllama Cupcake

    Joined:
    Aug 15, 2012
    Likes Received:
    3
    Trophy Points:
    8
    I totally agree with this. Picking a loot distribution system must be part of the initial raid discussion with a guild regardless of the eventual raid group's size . It ties in with all the discussion points that need to be answered before you plan on stepping into the boss's house:

    What do we hope to achieve?

    This is the biggest... defining a goal helps answer all other questions. Your loot system should work towards with goal.

    If you hope to achieve server/world firsts, that loot system is going to have to be more than fair. It needs to get upgrades into the hands of the players where it will do the most for the raid (not necessarily the most for an individual player). I prefer loot councils for this.

    This is situational, but might not be read as strictly "fair". For example, I typically play a healer...
    • If raid progression is harmed because I'm running out of juice spamming the tank, we NEED that tank to have more defensive capabilities. Loot NEEDs to go to them first. I also NEED more staying power and possibly throughput.
    • If the raid is hitting an enrage timer while everyone is alive, then there is a separate decision:
      • Do we decrease the number of healers and increase dps ranks, then give enough loot to healers so that someone on the healing team can switch to dps.
      • If healing is already stressed and no one can currently be spared, chunk loot at dps so they can increase their output.
    This often leads to an initial loot pinata to tanks then healers (for a short time until everyone is kept alive with a little wiggle room). Then dps get everything for a very long time. Gearing up dps makes the whole encounter run more smoothly with less stress to tanks and healers.

    What does our guild look like?
    • If everyone is still a semi-suspicious stranger, the loot system needs to parcel out loot as transparently as possible (without the possible drama of RNG and loot council).
    • If you have a group of folks whose contribution varies, that loot system needs to reward people based on that contribution.
    • If you have a group that all wants in, but there aren't enough spots to go around... the loot system has to recognize that and keep folks wanting to come to your raids. Maybe a currency system that lets folks earn points if they are ready-to-raid but not-in-raid would help keep up the enthusiasm.
    • If you are running pugs, how do you balance their loot in a way that might encourage them to join you permanently while keeping your guild mates happy?
    • Do you have awesome folks that aren't awesome with their money? Maybe DKP isn't right for you.
    • Do you have a lot of turn-over? If you pick loot council, you'll always be chunking gear at the new folks who need it most. That might be contributing to turn-over ;)
    • Do you have a bunch of casual players? Maybe doing a roll-based system would be fine.
    Like I said before, there is not typically one right system that will fit every guild. Otherwise there wouldn't be a ton of possible systems out there. Do your research. Whack people on the head and make them talk about it before they get to talk about the size of the dragon's closet. Review the loot system. What worked a year ago might not be meeting your needs going forward.

    Failure to have these discussions or failure to have buy-in within the group is dooming a guild to drama and probably break-down.

    Sorry for the wall of text. I just get excited.
    Black Wolf and SiegaPlays like this.
  4. Black Wolf

    Black Wolf Super Cupcake

    Joined:
    Aug 9, 2012
    Likes Received:
    638
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    The Netherlands
    The problem with a bid system is that it can be abused. Item prices will be influenced by members bidding on an item they know someone really really wants. That person (1) has to spend more points to get it. At the same time it gives the other members a chance to get more loot, because person 1 don't have much points left.

    I've seen it happen. And not only by regular members, even by officers. The only way to counter that is having fixed prices. Which adds another layer of upkeep to the system. That's is why I prefer a spend-all (or spend-half) system. It has all the positives of a pure dkp system and the positives of a Suidide King system. The only negative thing is that it has a somewhat big upkeep. But the positives out weight the negatives immensly.

    But like Snappylama says, in the end, every guild is different and it depends on what goal the guild has.
  5. SiegaPlays

    SiegaPlays "That" Cupcake

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2011
    Likes Received:
    454
    Trophy Points:
    83
    Location:
    Denmark
    They know that sort of stuff happens by being aquanted with me :rolleyes:

    Besides, you are right, someone who runs regularly have to have the common goals, etc. printed out and official.

    A thing I have noticed is that some people take it hard (as in bad feelings), if someone "dissappoint" by leaving for something they find more fitting, because they either want more raiding or less raiding, so they feel the guild objectives is not satisfying their game time. If they do not feel they fit in, then let them leave, we are playing a game, not hiring for a slum street gangs with a no-return clause.
    No need to backstab them on the way out.

    My only experience with loot council was a pug, where the leaders was 4-5 from the same guild. Everything was nbg unless something dropped they could use, then they loot councilled it to their own people. One time it got corrected, but it turned out the non-guildes getting it was actually an alt of their guildies :p
    I won a roll on a trinket and the pug leader took it. Mind you, we were about even on heal meters and I was as usual ahead on extra <REDACTED> (dispells, interrupts, etc), so they could not in any way or form say I didn't get it because I was underperforming. It was the last straw for half the raid and it did split after that.

    I'd rather cough up blood than ever get into something claiming loot council, it is just another word for favoritisme.
  6. snappyllama

    snappyllama Cupcake

    Joined:
    Aug 15, 2012
    Likes Received:
    3
    Trophy Points:
    8
    I'm the same way. Although I've made a terrible tank anytime I've tried. There's just something about staring at mob-crotch that makes me space out.

    I've always been reluctantly happy to step up with dpsing if my healing isn't needed. Thankfully, I tend to be a high-output/crutch healer so that normally doesn't happen. When it does, I'll do my best. I'll probably not be as good as someone that performs that role all the time.
  7. pseudo

    pseudo Podcaster

    Joined:
    Aug 22, 2012
    Likes Received:
    250
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Loot council gets a bad rap primarily because it takes a lot of people who are not only smart and empathetic, but also really well organized. Loot councils have to be able to show their effectiveness over other systems or it's a wash.
  8. SiegaPlays

    SiegaPlays "That" Cupcake

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2011
    Likes Received:
    454
    Trophy Points:
    83
    Location:
    Denmark
    I was actually thinking of mentioning suicide king system for more regular alliance loot policy, because it is pretty good for that. Did it in TBC for a couple of months and it was hard to gainsay to fairness.

    I do not like bid systems. Pretty anything that some can do loot speculation reminds me of a pet hate thing I have - reality shows where the participants vote others off the island :p People who speculate against their guildies are not on the guilds main objective.

    EPGP Lootmaster for a regularly raiding guild, nothing gets better than that!
  9. Black Wolf

    Black Wolf Super Cupcake

    Joined:
    Aug 9, 2012
    Likes Received:
    638
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    The Netherlands
    We can shake hands then.

    I surely gonna read more about that system. It peaked my interest.
  10. Kirathis

    Kirathis Cupcake-About-Town

    Joined:
    Dec 9, 2011
    Likes Received:
    90
    Trophy Points:
    28
    Location:
    Behind You
    I am by no means touting DKP as a good system. In fact, I have witnessed an evil implementation of it first hand. Horror story time. This goes back to the Molten Core days. The guild had been running it for awhile at the time that I and a number of others joined to replace some raid members. By that time, they had allowed some members to swap out their alts or their "new mains" for ones who had been running for some time.

    They then decided that it was "only fair" that these members (coincidentally mostly officers and the guild leader) be allowed to use DKP accumulated by their first character toward gear on their second. Most of them were pretty good about deferring to a new member to help them gear up. However, one particular officer was always quick to jump in with her main's DKP stash and snake everything she could for her alt character who was on the run. We had members quit the raid when she took every piece of mage gear for a month.

    That EPGP example is really intriguing. Of course that is also why I preferred the smaller team of friends with a simple "don't be an ***hole" rule. No point system required. In fact, we got to the point of the raid or loot master having to decide who got the loot because everyone kept deferring to each other.
  11. Kirathis

    Kirathis Cupcake-About-Town

    Joined:
    Dec 9, 2011
    Likes Received:
    90
    Trophy Points:
    28
    Location:
    Behind You
    The one other thing I just thought about is having interesting events in a raid like the Naxx fight where the whole team had to move with the the "death zones" on the floor. It was hard enough coordinating that with a 10 man team. I could not imagine trying to do so with a 40 man.
  12. SiegaPlays

    SiegaPlays "That" Cupcake

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2011
    Likes Received:
    454
    Trophy Points:
    83
    Location:
    Denmark
    A good guild will have rules for that too, so the policy is transparent :)

    People in my WoW guild had their slate wiped if they switched mains, and their new main was pretty much set in as a recruit with personal goodwill for having a history with the guild. If someone wanted to switch from a needed role to an over abundant role, they pretty much knew, that they would be benched on anything progressive despite their history simply due to not having the comparable gear to others of the same over abundant role.
    Forget about leaving a role that would handicap the guild raiding at all, you'd practically have to find a recruit qualified to take over your own role for you to switch to something else :p

    It didn't really matter though, a couples of weeks raid was enough to get up to about the same spot in epgp as before, be the gracious use of weekly epgp decay and well, attending.

    With a decay system, a raider can not get any further than a certain point of epgp, the more epgp one has, the closer the 10% decays matched how much one earned for a weeks raid. So recruits and main switchers was not struggling for long to catch up, despite needing on more than those, who had been around on their character for longer.
  13. SiegaPlays

    SiegaPlays "That" Cupcake

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2011
    Likes Received:
    454
    Trophy Points:
    83
    Location:
    Denmark
    Usually it was the same people dying on it on 25 mans, or at needing heals a lot :p Those who lags or does not understand the encounter.

    As a recruit I had fun being the one other priest for the mind control fight in Naxx on my very first 25 man raid in the guild. We did fine, but I had pretty much never used mind control before in an organized effort, so I did feel twitchy :p

    ahh, nostalgia
  14. snappyllama

    snappyllama Cupcake

    Joined:
    Aug 15, 2012
    Likes Received:
    3
    Trophy Points:
    8
    I love this rule... part of why I tend to like things smaller. One issue I've seen with any organization is that people tend to copy each other's behavior. One tolerated asshat quickly spawns into a bunch of asshattery.

    If everyone is good to one another, there sparks a swarm of do-goodery.

    I'm sure there is a sociological study somewhere confirming this.
  15. Black Wolf

    Black Wolf Super Cupcake

    Joined:
    Aug 9, 2012
    Likes Received:
    638
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    The Netherlands
    Erhmmm, Chrilin? What's that about!? :laugh: :speechless:

    I just prefer a loot system in any raid size. It's transparent, everyone knows what the rules are. But yeah, for some guilds it will work. I'm just so fanatic.
  16. Chrilin

    Chrilin Cupcake-About-Town

    Joined:
    Aug 6, 2012
    Likes Received:
    156
    Trophy Points:
    43
    Location:
    Colorado
    oh jeez.... :) She has plenty of large projects at home giving her less incentive for the big raids? And then something about do-goodery yada yada yada I dunno it's just a guess lol. ;)

    I was wondering how long it was going to take before she got me into trouble.... Now I know
  17. snappyllama

    snappyllama Cupcake

    Joined:
    Aug 15, 2012
    Likes Received:
    3
    Trophy Points:
    8
  18. Billco

    Billco Cupcake-About-Town

    Joined:
    Jul 23, 2012
    Likes Received:
    31
    Trophy Points:
    28
    Wow...so now I gotta decide which of you guys guilds I wanna apply for? ;)
  19. SiegaPlays

    SiegaPlays "That" Cupcake

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2011
    Likes Received:
    454
    Trophy Points:
    83
    Location:
    Denmark
    Well, if we could have such a thing as multiple guilds, why decide now, why not experience and learn which one rocks your boat :) If not, let's think about it when we get closer to knowing what guilds/clans/teams/whatever is about in WildStar.

    Personally I am just looking for some specific qualities in guild/guild leadership, like integrity, transparency, continuity and maturity. None of them small items to be judged by.
  20. Black Wolf

    Black Wolf Super Cupcake

    Joined:
    Aug 9, 2012
    Likes Received:
    638
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    The Netherlands
    I'm not sure that I even will run a guild in Wildstar. I would prefer that, but I need to have the time to lead one as well. Especially in the beginning a guild takes a lot of time and effort to get running properly. Things like recruiting, building the pillars, getting to know your members etc. Maybe (if needed) setting up a website or forum. I don't want to do a half-arsed job, it's not in my nature. All depends on how much time I have left after work and studying.

    Like Siega says, if I'm not leading a guild myself, I need to find one that has the same standards as I have. It's no easy job. But at the same time I'm not in a hurry. It will take time to find one that suits me.

    We can always see if people here are interested in guilds that are related to Wildstar Central. At the moment I wouldn't be against it. A lot of great people are active on this site. It would be fun. But since we all from different time zones and countries it would be impossible to fit us all into one big one. The best solution would be to link the guilds we will have to this community. I'm thinking something like an official WSC guild with it's own subforums and such.

Share This Page