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A different take on dungeon/raid finders

Discussion in 'WildStar General' started by Psistorm, Apr 24, 2013.

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  1. Psistorm

    Psistorm Cupcake-About-Town

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    Now, a lot of discussion has been going on about a dungeon or raid finder, the latter of which has been spoken up against quite heavily. But as I read more about this game, and think about how such tools could work, I have been getting a few thoughts on what imho might be a fun solution to a dungeon/raid finder tool.

    Let's start out by simply examining the WoW dungeon finder. What does it do? You click queue for a random dungeon, and depending on your class, the instance pops either within one second or 15 minutes. Then you teleport into the dungeon, do your thing, and get tped right back to where you were. Obviously, trying that strategy with random people for a 10, 25, or even 40 man raid is asking for trouble, though with a 40 man you can somewhat compensate at least for any losses.

    Now what if we did it differently though? What if we took away the magical ability to simply auto-queue and be tped over? I'm not speaking out in favor of entirely removing any and all comfort, but a more immersive and social approach might be pretty cool here.

    Imagine the process working like this instead:
    You want to queue up for some instances, and instead of just hitting queue, you have two options. You either start a new party for a certain dungeon, inviting friends, guildies, or people on offer, or you set yourself to LFG/LFR in the system and can either be picked by someone assembling a party, or join other open parties to fill slots that you are fit to fill.
    Once the party is full, you need to get to the dungeon entrance. At least one, maybe two people need to actually run/fly there and use the summoning stone to assemble the rest of the party, and then you enter and do the dungeon as normal, then travel back once you complete it.

    Where do I see the benefits here?
    • Its a more social approach. Rather than a server throwing people into a random party, you can make choices who you pick, and which party you join.
    • It encourages playing with friends, since friends and guildies in LFG mode will be listed at the top of your results both for players and for parties
    • You have the ability to talk to a player first by making a party closed and requiring a PST first to join, this would be useful for raids
    • This system can be extended to raids. You can talk to players, assemble them etc, outside of a guild. This makes it much easier for guilds to backfill any slots they can't fill themselves, while still allowing to control just who gets to join.
    • Adding a +rep system would allow people to see who has lots of rep, and would allow the system to float people higher on the list that you +repped before, so people you like are more likely to show up on your searches again.
    • It maintains a feel for the world. You actually know where dungeons are at, rather than them existing in an arbitrary point in space for you to teleport in and out of. More immersion
    The drawbacks, personally, are few to me, but I might be biased of course.
    Mainly I see the need to travel as a problem for some, rather than being teleported into the instance. But in the open, seamless world of Nexus, this should be less of a problem than, say, SWTOR, where a planet-to-planet transition would take you through a bunch of loading screens and tedious, repetitive actions.
    For me, the main draw is that this system allows people to do dungeons, as well as raids. If you aren't in a guild, either because you don#t want to, or arent able to for some reason, or if you can't raid during the main hours due to time zone differences or other life constraints, this would be a way for people to find new friends and people to go raiding with. Its a tool that accomplishes its job, while maintaining a social focus, as opposed to the anonymous finders that other games use.
    I'm curious what people think of my idea, though, so constructive feedback is always welcome
    Randy Marsh, Dnevnoy and Glacius like this.
  2. BlindSear

    BlindSear Super Cupcake

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    First the dungeon finder is going to allow you to click a "server only" button (confirmed) which gets a lot of people's woes out of the way about the dungeon finder. Sure it's not the perfect answer, but the biggest problem with a dungeon finder tool is no accountability for the players. So they can simply ninja all the loot, grief, go afk, and then leave, never to be seen again after the dungeon's over. This allows those who want a quick queue and a potentially horrific group to have it, but at the same time those who want to build the server community to do that as well. (I have had good cross server groups, but they are much fewer and further between than the bad groups. The worst was when you would start trying to help someone through chat on NA servers [which used to be completely english] in WoW only to get the response "que?" I know, I know, ignorant Americans.)

    So, what would be great for this is if people could post their raid needs and raiding calendar if it's a raid looking for a player. The players if they're looking for a raid could set their raiding calendar and search to see which raids fit their times (possibly show only those raids or they show up on top and in green or something). There needs to be some sort of in game system, as most people don't have 2 screens to be able to search for a guild from a forum post while playing the game. I'd love to get a group together to discuss what is necessary for this to be helpful, and see if we can get Carbine's attention on it.

    My idea for a system would be a group finder tab or window that would (Yes I actually know what bullets are... Sorry to those who have read my other posts):
    • Allow you to set if you are a raid/group looking for players or a player looking for a raid/group
    • Specify roles/classes needed for the group/raid
    • Specify your class as a player as well as role(s)
    • Set a schedule which allows for narrowing search fields both ways
    • A quick blurb to give some guild info or some info about the group, such as a website for applications or send a guild application with interest in the raiding position.
    That would be all, if you start getting into what achievements the player has it starts cutting bridges, also allows for a complete control on how you tryout people for raid spots still, just helps with the connection between looking on both ends. It could be server only too, wouldn't even need to be cross faction/cross server.
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  3. Psistorm

    Psistorm Cupcake-About-Town

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    I have to say, I kind of like the calendar idea. That does make sense for people to be able to post their raid days etc and do a bit of scheduling up front.
    I would still keep the idea of being able to join a raid more spontaneously if it still has open slots, to make the system even more flexible, but having a calendar etc would be quite awesome indeed, as well as the other things you describe.

    As for having the option for people to use a more "classic" wow-like queue system.. that gets a bit of a maybe. I think people might favor it because it's easier/more convenient, leaving the more social group finder to be bled dry of players in the worst case.
    The solution I suggest could be optionally cross-server as well, with the ability to give +rep etc, you would have the ability to more easily keep track of those players that did good last time, so you can build more of a personal collection of people from your and other servers that you got along with.
  4. Calsic

    Calsic Cupcake-About-Town

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    It's been a long day and I'm tired, so sorry if I'm just being dense, but are you suggesting that the group finder be combined with a guild finder? And how is the suggestion in the OP different from the LFG tool that WoW had before the current one came about? (which no one used btw)

    Also, not sure if it was typos or not, but there is no LFR planned.
  5. Psistorm

    Psistorm Cupcake-About-Town

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    I can't speak for the WoW lfg tool of old, since that was before my time, I only joined when cata came around.

    As for my proposal, its more people advertising themselves or their party, so you can either open a party for people to join, for a specific dungeon/raid, or join those parties/put yourself up for grabs for parties to invite you. BlindSear suggested using a calendar in combination for this for the LFR functionality to provide more long-term matchups, which is kinda cool.

    And while I'm fully aware that no LFR is planned, I liked throwing the idea around, since this imho might have the potential to bypass a lot of the issues an automatic LFR system would have, since it basically is just a social platform for players to organize into groups.
  6. wormed

    wormed Cupcake

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    I personally have no issue with cross-server group creation. I think the option they added solves this well enough.

    However, the biggest issue, in my opinion, is the teleportation directly into the instance. Discussing in IRC with others, I think "summoning stones", or some sort of mechanic like it, would be a solid compromise. This forces at least SOME interaction with the world. A dead world is one of the biggest negatives in today's MMORPG's.
  7. Rumze

    Rumze "That" Cupcake

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    I have terrible memories of running to a dungeon stone to summon folks and waiting for another person to show up so we could actually get the group going. This was before lfr auto ported and was cross server.

    I don't want to do that again. I'll just stop pugging and going with friends or folks I know won't waste my time. It shouldn't take me 40 min to get folks to a 20 min dungeon.
  8. wormed

    wormed Cupcake

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    Maybe you shouldn't blame the idea of traversing the world you should care about, and blame the crappy content dungeon you're speaking of. I agree, a 40 minute run for a 20 minute dungeon doesn't make sense. Blame the dungeon, not the fact that you actually have to do something to get there.

    To clarify, I really don't care about PvE servers having teleportation, but PvP servers should have it disabled, with a summoning system in place.
  9. Rumze

    Rumze "That" Cupcake

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    To clarify, I'm not blaming the world, I'm unhappy with the attitude of folks who expected me to get them to a dungeon. Often with me being the last person or second last to join a group and then waiting for folks to head to a dungeon.
    I didn't care about running to a dungeon, it was expected.
    Again , it was bad attitude among the players. This wasn't a dead server either but a pretty populated one.

    The dungeon was fine as well.

    I actually played on malganis so I'm well aware of World pvp and took it in stride and dished it out as well.

    It's a bad attitude and laziness that hurts the world not the tools.
  10. Calsic

    Calsic Cupcake-About-Town

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    Ah ok. Well, from the dusty cobwebs of my memory, your idea sounds almost exactly like the LFG tool that WoW had until the current one got put in place. Sorry to say, only a few people ever entered their info. It was so poorly adopted that Blizz came up with the current one to replace it.

    I agree with the issue of teleporting straight into the instance. I think that once a group is formed, everyone should be teleported to the closest taxi point, or better yet, graveyard. It gets people into the world a bit (not much, I know) but it also eliminates the horrible ordeal when you wipe and someone has no clue how to find their way back from their corpse run. Plus I really hate waiting at the instance for ages while someone "just does this one thing" before they join us.
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  11. Rumze

    Rumze "That" Cupcake

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    Actually that works well. Have folks teleport to the nearest hub . It doesn't have to be right outside the dungeon but in the vicinity.
  12. wormed

    wormed Cupcake

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    Essentially, the compromise I'd suggested. The whole group having the run through the zone to the dungeon instead of just a couple... sounds like a better plan to me. ;)

    PvP baby!
  13. Rumze

    Rumze "That" Cupcake

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    That actually is a great way to deal with it. I'd happily go for that!
  14. John

    John "That" Cupcake

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    Basically the system WoW used in TBC. Best option available imo.
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  15. Domichi

    Domichi New Cupcake

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    I really like this idea. I remember that I never knew or really even cared where the dungeons and raids were located once the insta-teleport started. Traveling through the game and getting a feel where everything is located in relation to the rest of the world is one of the best parts of playing MMO's.
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  16. SituationSoap

    SituationSoap Cupcake-About-Town

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    Except essentially no one used that system. I played WoW for the better part of five years, and I don't know a single person who actually found a single group using that system. Most players didn't even know it existed. A level-divided LFG world chat channel is a better choice than the system the OP has described, because people will actually use that.

    LFG systems either need to be fully automatic or completely active. If they're active, people will see others using it and join in. If they're fully automatic, you just need to know to push a button. But a middle ground means that you both need to push a button and wait for something else to happen, then take action it yourself.

    An automatic LFG system is overwhelmingly the desire of a huge portion of the MMO playerbase. There are no two ways about it.
  17. John

    John "That" Cupcake

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    I used it exclusively with a lot of success. Perhaps it could be been advertised better in some way.

    I don't agree at all that automatic LFG is the overwhelming desire of MMO players. If you read this forum at all you will see there are actually a large number of players who are very opposed to the tool. Aside from that, the fact that players want it doesn't change the fact that it has a lot of negative effects.
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  18. MassFragg

    MassFragg Cupcake

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    I like the idea of rep or a reputation system, so if they do go afk or grief or ninja loot, you have a way of down voting them so they're performance reflects accordingly. The problem I see though, is everyone is going to pick the top rep guys and those guys are going to get more rep. So I think having a cap instead of a plus 1 kind of system would work best. Maybe a grading system like A through F. But I do like OPs idea of a more social style of raid finder than the style wow has.
  19. Calsic

    Calsic Cupcake-About-Town

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    This forum, and others like it don't represent the majority though. Most MMO players never visit forums. I can't give you a reference, but I've seen enough devs say that to believe it's probably true. I'm not even convinced that the majority of players in this community would prefer not to have one.

    Really, if it were the case that most players don't want the LFG tool, why do the game devs keep spending all that money making them? And when games launch without them, why is there such a fuss? Like it or not, they are expected now.
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  20. Rumze

    Rumze "That" Cupcake

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    I do remember a big fuss in swtor about no lfg tool.
    It had a lfg screen/window that folks could look at to see who had flagged themselves as lfg and see if they had put a note next to their name, and you could whisper them or invite them to group.

    Edit: I have to say though it wasn't a big deal to me. I used what they gave me and I made do.
    MassFragg likes this.
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