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A different take on dungeon/raid finders

Discussion in 'WildStar General' started by Psistorm, Apr 24, 2013.

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  1. Vunak

    Vunak Cupcake-About-Town

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    Did I say that? No I said the developers haven't made a good MMO since 2004. I never said they were horrible at their job. Every game that has come out has been good at what it does. I feel they are wrongly labeled. We have an MMORPG in early game. You level you experience the world and people around you. At cap it turns into a Lobby grind. I think the developers have failed us at endgame by using the same system over and over and then wonder why they aren't doing any better then the guy to their right. Hell some dev's come right out and say its the players fault entirely, looking at you SWTOR.
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  2. BlindSear

    BlindSear Super Cupcake

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    I think what she's trying to say is "show your maths. If we think they're correct we'll show them to Mark Jacobs."
  3. SituationSoap

    SituationSoap Cupcake-About-Town

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    It's really not hard to do some basic math regarding player population levels, average numbers of players logged in at any one time, the number of factions in the game (3), and extrapolate from the fact that there is no PVE content, and it pretty quickly becomes obvious that 50K players isn't a reasonable goal for a new game.

    Let's walk through. EVE regularly publishes concurrent player numbers, their maximum is about 63K concurrent players at any given time, out of 500K subscribers. The conclusion that we can draw from this is that you can never expect better than 10% of your subscriber base to be logged on during prime time hours --remember, that's their highest count ever. A 50K subscriber base means that, on your best nights, with tons of people logged on during prime time, you're going to hit about 5K concurrent players. Those 5K players are spread out over any number of zones -- let's say 20 -- and split between 3 factions (assuming 3 perfectly balanced factions, that's about 1300 players per faction). If those 1300 players are evenly split between the 20 zones, that's a little more than 60 players per zone, per faction. That's enough that you can probably keep something like world PVP going, if you're lucky.

    Now let's say you're a 4PM player. You're playing before people are off work. You might be lucky if 2% of the player base is logged in. That 60 players per zone just fell to 12. That's too small to maintain any kind of PVP action beyond perhaps one or two action points, without a doubt. So you start hemorraghing those 4PM players...and the 2PM players and the 1AM players and the 11:30 AM players, and suddenly you're down in the neighborhood of 30K players and those finances are looking significantly less realistic.

    This is why I say that CU is going to need at least 200K players to be able to maintain itself. It has nothing to do with money and everything to do with having enough players on that you don't hemorrhage players straight out of the gate. If you make the world small enough that only having a thousand players online at any given time is reasonable, you're never going to be able to grow past the 50K mark because the world's going to be way too full when you've got 5K players on.

    That Mark Jacobs is not capable of doing this kind of math on his own shouldn't surprise anyone who played WAR.
  4. FluidD

    FluidD Cupcake-About-Town

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    If you knew anything about the development of WAR... (You are also assuming the game will be seperrated into zones, which may not be the case),Well like I said, I am not talking to you. You lost my respect, and if I could mute someone I would do it to you. We will see, I hope your right so you dont turn into yet another internet jackass. This is the last time I will be responding to you, answer if you must.
  5. SituationSoap

    SituationSoap Cupcake-About-Town

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    I've posted my math. I've also provided that math directly to one of the developers from City State Entertainment on another forum, and he was unable to provide any kind of mitigating factor that would refute my math.

    Honestly, CU is probably not going to get funded. There is a very small group of people who are super excited about the game, and a huge Kickstarter audience that is wholly unimpressed. I wonder if they'll still be able to afford to make the game without crowdfunding, or if this will encourage them to go back to the drawing board.
  6. John

    John "That" Cupcake

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    As Jouk has already said, outside of purely mechanical games like solitaire, role playing is a huge part of almost any video game you will play. This does not mean you have to 'create' role playing such as players typing with a certain dialect in chat, or waiting in line for the bank or things of that nature, but it does means that the very fact that you are playing an avatar in a created world means you are playing a role in that world.

    For example:

    -When you do a typical 'go kill the leader of the village' quest, within the game world you are playing the role of a hired mercenary

    -When you pay 10 silver to ride a flight path, you are playing the role of a paying consumer in a active economy

    -When you kill an endgame raid boss, you are playing the role of a warrior defending his land

    -When you gather materials and craft things, you are playing the role of a entrepreneur citizen trying to earn a living in his world

    I think the point to be made, as others have already said, is that if you remove all the RPG from the game there isn't much left. I don't know how you can possibly say that RP won't even "register in any of the designers' decisions," virtually everything about the game is based on the premise of an alternate world (Nexus) and filling a role within that world, whether it be through Paths, Race, Class, Raiding, Quests...ALL of those things are directly intended to put you into the shoes of your avatar and let you play as them, not as yourself; aka "role playing".
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  7. FluidD

    FluidD Cupcake-About-Town

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    I think this thread needs to be redirected by a mod, as it has become derailed. Lol, everyone is making good points (some arent.... actually) but none of the points are correlating to the original goal.
  8. Soylentgreen

    Soylentgreen Well-Known Cupcake

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    I can't wait until Zap throws LFG Tool into the forbidden topics box and there can stop being a new thread about it every day with the same arguments from both sides in every thread.
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  9. John

    John "That" Cupcake

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    Honestly this thread should have died a long time ago. I thought a certain poster was actually trying to have a intelligent discussion but the longer it goes it circles the more it seems his intent is to just flamebait and troll.
  10. Khrusky

    Khrusky Cupcake

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    I don't know. I thought so at first, but I re-read the thread and it's only been quite so aggressive in the last 3 pages, and only by those invested in discussing the success of other games.

    I think there's actually a broad consensus to be had if the discussion can be narrowed down.
  11. FluidD

    FluidD Cupcake-About-Town

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    Yea I didnt want to talk about the success of other games, but hopefully that will stop now. I would like to bring it back to where it was when I first came to the thread, which was LFG tools and how they should fit into WS. My general feeling is that I enjoy a good journey in my massive worlds.
    I would like to have to find the dungeon on at least one character before being able to que for it, and maybe a quest chain to unlock a lot of the dungeons? Maybe not all, but 50%?
  12. Rumze

    Rumze "That" Cupcake

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    Im fine with no insta port to dungeon but port to a hub in the same region or map zone.
    However if they could get rid of the flying to the closest hub on a taxi part, that would be gold. Folks tend to go afk during that part anyway from my experience, and Im guilty of that as well.
  13. SituationSoap

    SituationSoap Cupcake-About-Town

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    Only in the most absurdly abstract notion of "playing a role". You're stretching the definition well past the breaking point.
  14. Joukehainen

    Joukehainen Well-Known Cupcake

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    Software, like anything else, really, is not made via linear development. Diff software caters to diff needs of different people. That's why we have different game genres and different games with different philosophies. The complaints being made are that too many MMOs are following a cookie-cutter from WoW, that they of course cannot deliver as well as WoW itself does, so they drop off in popularity. There are niches for every market, not every product has to or should be a clone of another, especially if it aims to be successful in competition against that more established original.

    Weren't you just criticizing Mark Jacobs and City State for their projections, saying your own math proved those industry professionals with lifelong careers in MMO development wrong? The irony. :p
  15. Khrusky

    Khrusky Cupcake

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    I would be happy with having to discover the dungeon entrance if the walk to the dungeon was fairly short (<=15mins) or interesting in and of itself.

    One problem I tend to have with dungeons are that it I find it to be easy to over-level whilst waiting for a group to become available. If the quest chain could be done before I reached a point where the dungeon would be too easy, then I would certainly appreciate being able to, say, level up crafting while waiting for other people to come on-line.
  16. Yakzan

    Yakzan "That" Cupcake

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    <Mod Monocle> Okay, this has gone from heated into shouting match. I would suggest ending this line of discussion. </Mod Monocle>
  17. John

    John "That" Cupcake

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    Ok don't be a mercenary. Don't be a Human Warrior Soldier. Don't be a citizen on planet Nexus. Remove all of it. Get rid of all the art and music that defines the world. Get rid of all the creatures that populate Nexus. Get rid of the war between the Exiles and Dominion. Because all those things are designed to immerse you in an alternate world and help your toon fill a role in that world.

    Have fun playing solitaire, just make sure that you don't play an online version that will try to make it look like your playing at a poker table or something, that might danger on playing a role. Stick to the good old Win95 version :p
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  18. FluidD

    FluidD Cupcake-About-Town

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    I just want someone to pull out the ban hammer already. I try to bring back a thread and it instantly gets thrown right back to the wolves. I dont understand why people cant have an intelligent conversation without getting angry or mocking other peoples completely neutral and good willed posts.
    And thanks I missed that ignore button all this time.
  19. SituationSoap

    SituationSoap Cupcake-About-Town

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    I'm well aware of how software works, I've been developing professionally for the better part of the last decade. A lot of innovation involves a singular person making a jump and then huge swaths of the rest of the market making incremental improvements on that design.

    As for your "irony" -- there's a huge difference between the idea that everyone who produces software in a particular genre is bad at what they do (and there's no other way to spin "there have been no good MMOs in ten years") and looking at a very specific stated point on a very particular game from a developer who actually probably isn't good at his job (based on his track record) and then providing realistic, factually-grounded math to show that the mathematical projections provided by said developer couldn't work in any world that you and I live in.

    I'm not saying all developers are bad at their jobs. I am saying that Mark Jacobs is using unrealistically optimistic math as a way to sell a game that won't be out for at least another year. That's not ironic.
  20. Khrusky

    Khrusky Cupcake

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    Please try not to demonise others.

    There are plenty of people who do not play roles in games. There are gameplay elements to most games, and these can be focused on to the exclusion of all else.

    Consider CoD. In the online multiplayer, few are playing the role of their respective faction (i.e. terrorist/special forces). Most are simply exercising twitch skills and basic tactical awareness. While they could be said to fulfil a role, they are not generally effectively filling a role that anyone would want them to be with regards to any kind of coherent, consequential story-line.

    RPGs (in the commonly-used genre sense) have certain combat mechanics, and some people do seem them in the same mechanistic way. The dungeon crawler is further along this line of thinking.

    Also compare and contrast the playing of Starcraft single-player and multiplayer.
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