Discussion in 'WildStar General' started by Crucifer, May 9, 2013.
lol love the way wow players think MMO's did not exists before then ...ahh the kiddies
We know that MMO's existed before WoW, it's just that most of us didn't exist before WoW, or WoW was our first MMO due to its popularity
Such a shame there wasnt a years gap between city of heroes and wow.
Given more folks experience with that game.
Plenty of us were before wow, but wow is a fairly common ground compared to other mmos and it has gone through a lot of different ideas/ideologies so it is easy to discuss things using it.
This was sooo true for me.
Back in the day I was a horses**t hunter (a huntard, if you will) but I wanted to raid, but never got to 60 prior to TBC. However, I got my first taste of end-game raiding and epic quality gear at 70 in Kara, right at the tail end of the expansion. By mid-Wrath, I was a raider, regularly pushing current content.
I know people like to b**** about this, but I was motivated to raid where previously I had no interest by none other than the epic, powerful gear these raiders had. Yup, I wanted to raid for GEAR. Daaaaaaamn straight!!! I was one selfish mother-flipper and I wanted my shiny purplez. Not to strut around like a chicken as if I was hot s****, but because I wanted the GEAR.
Once I began to start raiding, my goals began to shift gradually over time, but never once did I abandon my lust for obtaining gear from raiding. I wanted it for my OWN satisfaction. I don't give two f****s if people think I'm awesome for what I do. I just want to get the cool looking, most powerful gear in the game. Yup, I'm a terrible, awful person. Shame on me. I want gear. I like shinies. I like the gear treadmill. Yes gear is made obsolete over time. I'm ok with that. In fact, I think it's a good thing.
Vertical progression and exclusive gear from the game's hardest content IMO is a must in any serious MMO. At the very least, there needs to be a reason for people to want to strive to greater heights. Ignoring content for the competitive 1% is a MISTAKE. Many are right that making a game for a tiny minority seems nonsensical, but it is important to realize that players change over the course of a game. They become better, more competitive, more and less casual, and sometimes even leave the game, whether it be the game losing its luster or real life cutting away at playing time. Games need not only to motivate new and unskilled players to be better to get better rewards, but they also must provide a way for games to recycle and generate new players. 1 percenters need to be able to take in new players when the old players leave. If you kill off the 1 percent by not including content for them, you will kill your game. Striving to be better and more powerful and making said journey challenging but fulfilling is key to a game's success.
This became sort of a rant so I hope it's somewhat coherent. XD
I don’t think it would have made a difference. CoH was oldschool MMORPG; it had a fairly steep learning curve and difficulty, where WoW was a MMORPGlite; designed to pull over the non-RPG crowd of Warcraft (RTS), and other non-MMORPG gamers.
A prime example of the learning curve is when my first Newb character was told to go to Galaxy City for a mission. I opened my Map, saw Atlas Park, and then saw Galaxy City. I ran to the direct path gate and found that it was locked to my level; so I open up my map again and see that I needed to run through Steel Canyon. I enter Steel Canyon, and every MOB is deep purple. I survived the run (I’m pretty fricken proud of that to be frank.), and completed the mission in Galaxy City. I try the other route and it’s also full of purples. I log out of the game and go to the forums. After a quick search I find out about the Train Stations, and that I was not the only dumb Newb who thought they were just part of the flavor of CoH. I hoped a train in Galaxy City and within seconds I was stepping out of a gate in Atlas Park.
The CoH Devs had wasted an opportunity to teach a new player about the Train System (Which was fairly typical of the other MMOs as well.); WoW would have had a training mission for that aspect of the game.
As for difficulty; In WoW I had multiple characters to the upper teens within a week. In CoH I would not have had any characters to the upper teens within a week.
When I read about a WoW Raider prancing around in Raid Gear I just grin.
i sincerely hope so!
No more token grinding or having loot only Bind on Equip so anyone with a big enough wallet can just gear up (like in *shudder* Neverwinter). Make players actually work for their loot!
Out of curiosity, did you actually do any of the raid content in Vanilla WoW?
As far as I know there isn't any /prance emotes, the guy in raid gear can stand in front of the bank alongside the guy in a rare crafted robe or world drop and I can't tell which one is prancing...they are both displaying their gear.
COH raid content difficulty was on par with basic dungeons in Warcraft. Also, if leveling speed dictates difficulty of a game EQ must have been super hard or maybe even Earth and Beyond I had a friend who played for a year every single day without fail for hours on end and he never managed to cap.
i think you took it the wrong way.
He means not to kiss casual ass. Not to cater only to them. I consider myself a semi casual player and i agree with him. Catering to casuals, making the game too easy with gear obtaining etc, is cancerous. WoW did that, i didnt like it. As a casual gamer.
While on the topic of casuals, I think it would be good to start differentiating between casuals and bad players. Casuals are just people who can't devote the same amount of time into the game as hardcore people can. These casual players can be just as skilled, and in some cases better, than hardcore players.
While I consider myself a hardcore player, I am kind of excited to see how WildStar's raids work for casual players. With each boss constantly changing, you might see casuals raiding with hardcore guilds more often. No more memorizing boss fights, stand here, do that at 30%, cc those Time to rely on skill and ingenuity!
To be fair, the 10m/15m runs of those dungeons were more like the 'LFR' version of UBRS. Groups would just pull random 60s out of Orgrimmar, head to the dungeon with a full group and clear it. I started WoW in a close nit group of competitive FPS players, that was 5 man content. Of course back then the general skill of MMO players was fairly low, what with WoW being the first MMO and all that jazz, these days if you launched a dungeon like UBRS and made it 15 man, people would make references to SWTOR.
I'm not suggesting that making UBRS accessible by allowing 15 people in was a bad thing, simply that these days the dungeons would be split into normal/heroic versions, and the 15/10 man runs of those dungeons would be the normal version, allowing a higher gear tier on the harder challenge.
Maraudon and Dire Maul were not new tiers of content, they were actually lower level than UBRS, Maraudon was 45-50 content, these are just dungeons which were supposed to be in for launch and never made it. Silithus was new solo content, but wasn't a dungeon. I had actually forgotten about the summonable tiers of Twilight bosses that required you to wear silly cosmetic items and involved a giant grinding pyramid that took forever to get anywhere. That did count as group content, and they did add new tiers of gear to it, but I don't know anybody who really enjoyed grinding cultists for days and then forming multiple impromptu groups before getting the chance to spawn 1 raid boss that might possibly drop an item.
Perhaps Blizzard recognised the lack of non-raid content at the time and threw that in as a kind of time sink to fill a gap. Judging by the AH prices of cultist armour there were probably a fair few people doing the summonable content, but I think Sunwell Plateau is held in higher regard as a far more interesting addition.
I don't see the problem about "casual" players not doing raid content. People will actually do some raid content and be satisfied with it. It was like this in WoW vanilla and A LOT of people would at least see some bosses in MC. They would try to do some guild alliance in order to have the sufficient number of player for one or two nights in the week and that was great! Social interactions at their best! The 20 people raid content was <REDACTED>ing great too. ZG and AQ20 (the only 20 people raid of WoW ever) were amazing! Lot of bosses, super fun tactics...
Ultimately, there was quite a big number of players who would have entered BWL (the second raid) by the end of WoW Vanilla. This is one of the thing I dislike with WoW is how a new expansion immediately make the rest of the game useless. AoC managed to add an expansion without changing the level cap with a LOT of content and it was great! While we had T4 and a lot of 5 man dungeon with the expansion with really good stuff (the content was VERY hard too), T1 to T3 was still relevant as well as other 5 man dungeon from the original game.
Catering to the 1% is actually really good for the game because a lot of people will want to do the same content as others and they will try to improve themselves, find a good guild and so on. It adds a lot of social interaction to the game and something to look forward too.
Upper Blackrock Spire was always designed to be low-end raid content. Even when they nerfed the instances so that they were more "accessible" to 5 man groups, it remained tuned for 10 people. 10 man Stratholme, Scholomance and Lower Blackrock Spire, on the other hand... that I agree with.
I personally think Raid Size should be 20...no other raid sizes. Just 20. It's a good even number. Works well, and easy to build content around.
25 is an odd number half a group size and is fubarish. 40 is obscure these days, its too many people and not enough 2009ers and after know how to handle 40 man environments.
But if you do 20 mans you don't do any other raid sizes...just 20 and 5 mans. That's it. And don't stagger the 20 man raids into difficulties like SWTOR with Normal / Hard / Nightmare....just make the 20mans Nightmare difficulty. They are meant to be hard not entry level.
That would be pristine.
20 or 15 is about what I thought would be ideal raid sizes. Big enough to feel like an actual raid (as opposed to 10 mans which still feel like a group vs a raid) but small enough to be manageable while maintaining that large strikeforce feel. Dedicating development time to multiple raid sizes and difficulties is just too risky for an unestablished, unreleased game to take up. Just dedicate to one raid type and make ALL of the content within challenging. Make content akin to WoW's heroic level difficulty or greater in all raids. In WoW currently, normal raids are almost always fully cleared by the first week or two by the serious raiders which is just a waste of development time if that happens.
That said though, I'm still looking forward to what Wildstar has in store for its 40 man raids. I believe I heard somewhere that raids WILL have only one mode, but that some raids will be 40 man raids while others will be 20 man raids.
I think focusing on one raid sIze and one raid difficulty like you said makes the development of that raid set much more focused and leads to less bugs and issues.
It also leaves more time for the devs to get the difficulty and functionality of the encounters just right.
If they could settle on a manageable raid size, like 20, which is decent, then I imagine the "Dynamic Content" feature in raids working a lot better. 40 man raids + herding cats through new environmental mechanics every week would make raid leaders start screaming about more DoTs and whelp groups.