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A VERY Comprehensive Review for WildStar from a 1%er [WARNING! This is Long!]

Discussion in 'WildStar General' started by Crucifer, May 9, 2013.

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  1. Exodus_31

    Exodus_31 Cupcake

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    Perhaps it's an epidemic for your hardcore crowd, and makes sense when put in those terms. However, are you putting into consideration that Carbine not only wants their game to be fun for as many people as possible, but also needs to make money while doing it?

    Excluding the casuals would be a severe blunder to their pocketbook in the end.
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  2. TeoH

    TeoH Well-Known Cupcake

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    It sounds like what you actually mean is they should listen to their players, as long as the players they are listening to are you.

    I can't disagree with your entire post, when you write a post that long it would take an incredible feat of technical prowess not to hit at least some nails on the head, but I can only facepalm at the <REDACTED>storm this 1% thing has kicked up.

    Having content that will challenge people at the top end of player skill and give everyone a high goal to aim towards is great. It's a mistake to do a SWTOR and allow players to easily 'complete' your PvE game and be left with nothing to do, but your wording and the wording of everybody jumping on this bandwagon implies a situation where 99% of the people playing your game don't matter, and you should ignore them. That is utter rubbish and you need to sort yourselves out and bring the dialogue back down to earth.

    The topic of discussion should be how best to provide content for dedicated PvE raiders while still accomodating and retaining the remaining group of pretty-much-everyone which is required in order to ensure the game actually exists in the first place. Not how best to shaft everyone who didn't raid Naxx40 and leave them in the dirt to make you feel better about your position on the PvE ladder.

    The information we have heard about Wildstar so far suggests a wide variety of content that caters to different types of people including multiple raid sizes, dungeons, story exploration and content tailored to solo players - This is a good thing. Notice that this information suggests that the Dev's attitude is not "<REDACTED> everyone who isn't raiding Naxx40, we only care about the 1%". Nothing good will come of the attitude you take in your post, and the suggestion that every MMO in the last 10 years has "dug its own grave" because it didn't directly appeal to you personally is at odds with the reality that the video game market hasn't imploded yet.

    When you take an exaggerated and extreme stance on these issues you're encouraging people to take up the opposite extreme to try and balance the dialogue.
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  3. Crucifer

    Crucifer Cupcake-About-Town

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    Look at games like EVE, they cater to no casual. They are seriously profitable, and do a damn good job at retaining and even gaining new players. You don't need to cater to casuals to be successful. But I can show you at least 5 MMOs in recent years who tried and got the short end of the stick from it.

    Again, I am not saying that casuals should not have content to play. That is silly. I am just saying their word for what Quality of Life should be in MMOs is the world that destroys MMOs. I'm not going to sugar coat this at all...gamer's have gotten SOFT. And by soft I mean they don't know what hardships are anymore. Quality of Life has gotten so woven into how they expect a game to feel that they have never truly seen or felt anything that would feel rewarding.

    Look at things like Raid Finder. This made raiding as mundane as running a 5 man dungeon, just so casuals could experience the content. What is the point of raiding after you have brainwashed an entire 12 million player base that raiding should always and forever be that easy? It's done irreparable damage to the industry. I for one would go on a campaign for any game that stands up to casuals and say that their game isn't going to lose its rewarding feeling for convenience.

    The industry needs to change again, it needs to feel like the past not because of Nostalgia but because no MMO that comes out anymore has a chance in hell at feeling exciting if the mechanics it's going to launch with are so dull.
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  4. ruff_ethereal

    ruff_ethereal Well-Known Cupcake

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    The only things I disagree with you about is the Flying Mounts, the Teleports, and the Telegraphs.

    If people want flying mounts, let them. People who want to interact with the world will interact with it. Those people who don't want to or don't have the time to travel the world on foot or by land-bound mount will spend that time grumbling about how they wished there were flying mounts or praying to the gods above that they'll make it in time, and wish that these minutes spent traveling could be better spent playing.

    Also, the world was specifically designed from day 1 with flying mounts.

    Same issue with the whole housing bit. It's instanced so as not to blow up so many computers with the amount of <REDACTED> we'll inevitably put in our "houses in the sky." Some people like the convenience, and I say let them. Like with flying mounts above, it's their choice if they want to stick around in the cities or rush to the raid portals.

    From what you're saying, I assume there is a LOT of people who will do the former because they simply want to. If the latter miss out on the experience, their loss, and maybe we should try coaxing them into enjoying the fluff?

    Finally, with Telegraphs: you've only seen the basic telegraphs, I assume? These things can get [REDACTED] crazy in the later levels, and they add a layer of challenge, not remove it. Instead of going "Where the [REDACTED] is this damage coming from?! [REDACTED]!", I can go "Oh [REDACTED]! It's everywhere! What part ISN'T painted!? [REDACTED]!"

    This also allows the devs freedom and ease to make SUPER complex attack patterns, and allow you the ease of making interesting attack formations and patterns of your own. When you don't have to worry about your players trying to find out the patterns in the first place, you've basically got free-reign to go crazy. They will literally know what's coming to them, after all.

    As for your post, excellent points with "Everybody can be Epic!" and "Build a Game, Not A Cash Cow." Like they said in The Incredibles, "When everyone's super... no one will." and the point also made by an interesting book I read, "Obliquity." With regards to the latter, it points out that companies got filthy rich by being the best in their field, not trying to be the best and the highest in the almighty "NUMBERS!" There was even a hilarious quote where one executive who saw his business tank EPICLY when they chased the "NUMBERS!" said that whoever thought up of the concept was a [REDACTED] idiot.
    Zilvoran and Kataryna like this.
  5. Flawz

    Flawz Cupcake-About-Town

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    I agree with the Cassian with all the slave bots...


    As i know both of us have posted on each of these topics in separate threads.


    I love to brag but Im a great PvPer and as PvP is much harder and tactical than PvE im sorry I have to object to the quoted post as well. I played vanilla WoW as well as many games before its time. I did not raid hardly at all in the beginning.. I PvPed and I kicked major cooly. I raided after and saw that the tactics involved were predictable and easy. Even in Vanilla once you got used to the tactics they became a bit easier.

    So no, the Great PvPers did not all start out as Great PvEers, PvE is a fraction of the difficulty. They are completely different.

    PvPers had to coordinate even more, which trust me was very difficult due to stubborn people.


    but you made sense on other topics. well written.
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  6. Crucifer

    Crucifer Cupcake-About-Town

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    This is where the casual mindset has gotten the MMO market destroyed. "Time spent traveling" is still time spent playing the game.

    What if you were a 40 man raid guild and you have a strict raid dead line at 7pm every night. You get all your members together and head out. Some people come back 30 seconds later cause they were getting their snacks and drinks finalized so 12 or so of the 40 man raid team is 30 seconds behind the rest of people running down to the instance. (Traveling to the instance not teleporting there) Then all the sudden 2 badass faction heroes from the opposing faction cut you off from your path and decide to fight you 12 vs 2...and end up killing you all?

    Guess what, the time you spent losing your 40 man raid quality minutes was time spent playing some PvP, hating the other faction, playing the game, interacting with the other members of the world, and having fun that something unexpected happened that often never happens.

    This sound to crazy to be real? Think again, this was an experience done in Vanilla WoW back when there was no teleports / flying mounts...and two men named Wheelie and Champ refused to let Alliance 40 man raids peacefully go about running to BWL.



    Almost 8 years later I still know this video, because it is a shining example of what used to exist in World PvP / unexpected great moments in Vanilla WoW. That isn't just nostalgia it came from there being nothing that catered to avoiding being out in the world all the time.
  7. ruff_ethereal

    ruff_ethereal Well-Known Cupcake

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    I see your point there. But, you miss the fact that maybe some people know exactly what they want to do and don't want to PvP? Time is limited; there are some people who really don't have time to get into a cross-faction smackdown and just want to finish this raid boss.

    I do see however that we have very different opinions on the subject. Might I suggest we end this with thanks and part ways?

    Thank you for the interesting post and the conversation. It was pleasant, thought-out, and a nice change from "RAWRNOURWRONG[REDACTED]YOURMOMYOU[REDACTED][REDACTED][REDACTED!!!!!!11111!!!!!" that seems to be the norm elsewhere.
  8. Moor

    Moor New Cupcake

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    I think people in this thread, and in general, are misinterpreting what the self proclaimed hardcore crowd means by "catering to casuals". They don't mean that people with less time and interest to commit themselves to a game should be excluded from the fun, shouldn't get the story or a sense of character progression. No, what they tend to mean is: making a game friendly to casuals should not banalize the more difficult content. Most people, no matter how casual, don't want everything in a game to be effortless, yet some developers do seem to think that it's punishing to casual players if they have even some content that's either difficult to access or to execute.

    Many of the more casual players fear that the devs will listen to the hardcore players and create a game in which there's nothing meaningful to do if you don't have a lot of time in your hands. Many of the more hardcore players fear that the devs will listen to the casual players and create a game in which there's nothing challenging to do if you have the time and the interest to do it. In reality, I believe, most MMO players want the same things: a game in which there's always something feasible for them to aspire towards. This, in my humble opinion, can be achieved only in a game with very diverse content with appropriate and meaningful rewards attached to it. I don't understand from where some devs seem to get the idea that casual players, meaning mostly people who don't have all that much time to play, want ridiculously easy content with very high rewards compared to the effort required to get them.
  9. Crucifer

    Crucifer Cupcake-About-Town

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    It may be different, but it builds community. Calling out for help from other faction members around you so that you can get past people in your way builds friendships and alliances within factions. Having maybe lost a night of dungeons because you got stopped by the opposing faction builds resentment for the other faction which builds community and realism of waring factions in this MMO world. You, then the next time do the same back to them. Or maybe one night you go pay your respects by ransacking one of their small towns and grief a few lowbies just to send a reminder that you don't like them.

    It's all in good fun to have competition in games.

    You sir get a thumbs up. I'm glad you understand the point.
  10. BlindSear

    BlindSear Super Cupcake

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    I think the main thing the OP's trying to push forward is that Wildstar should be one game that's an MMO. The main game should be the world, the rest of it can be fun and extra stuff for people to do, but mainly focus on the world and community. I like this idea. Put the M back in MMO. This way casuals have plenty to do, in that... the world is the game. I don't completely agree with everything he's(?) saying, but the overall idea rings loud and clear.
  11. Crucifer

    Crucifer Cupcake-About-Town

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    :up:
  12. TeoH

    TeoH Well-Known Cupcake

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    This is not an argument for any design proposal, because the purpose of the game is not to make people "HARD", it is to provide long term entertainment for a large group of subscribers in order to make money for a development studio. The game is not an army boot camp designed to 'weed out' players who can't cut it and skim the cream off the top to send in to war, that analogy is pretty much the opposite of what you want the game to be doing.

    Challenges are an important tool that you use to make the playing experience more interesting. You want people to struggle, and then overcome, and you want to provide ample challenges to accomodate people of higher skill levels all the way up the ladder so that players are never left wanting for a challenge. But you also want those challenges to extend down the ladder, because different challenges are appropriate for different people, and as this is a game and not an army boot camp you are not trying to create a bar in the middle of the ladder that tells people to go home because they can't cut it.

    Challenges are not measured purely in mechanical skill, players also face social challenges and the challenge of time commitments. If forming a group, getting the group to an instance and clearing the instance is a 4-5 hour affair, then you just ruled that content out entirely for a large group of people who cannot ever complete that 'challenge'. A large number of people play MMOs almost as solo games, do not join guilds and often do not communicate with many people in the game, some of these people are not native english speakers, they are faced with social challenges that prevent them from playing much of the content.

    Those are groups of people who you will never see come onto an MMO forum and argue their side, but they're a massive chunk of the game's players, and you can't say they don't matter.

    You do not have to adjust your entire game to allow these people to do everything in the game, however you also cannot ignore them. If all of the content you add to your game, all of the interesting story progression and new art, cinematics and interesting gameplay mechanics exist only in end game raiding content, then you need to allow these people to see it in some way. The alternative is not to invest all of your resources solely into adding more stuff to the top of the raiding pyramid, and spend a significant amount of time producing content that these players, who are a big deal for your game, get to see.

    In otherwords, if you want to make a top tier of raiding that is exclusive content for a small group of players with a lot of free time, then you also need to make other interesting content that caters to everyone else. You cannot only provide things for 1% of your player base to do. So yes, the 'casuals' do matter, yes you need to accomodate them.

    Finally, what you're left with is a question of finite resources and how to allocate them. Blizzard chose to produce elaborate raids with cinematic sequences, lots of unique art and plenty of lore to them, that's where the bulk of their development time was spent when adding new content patches to the recent expansions. To justify that expense they allowed more people to see those raids. That isn't the only way of solving the problem, but putting all of your effort exclusively into raid content and then only letting 1% of your players into it is not the alternative.
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  13. Jeuraud

    Jeuraud Cupcake-About-Town

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    To be frank there is a lot of arrogance in this post, and a lot of ignorance of W*, and the W* Devs. This is a post to the W* Devs on how to make a proper MMO; not a recap of W* (Thus the "for" and not "of" in the title.). Normally I would just read, and go on but this
    made me start thinking about you personally.

    Telegraphing is the W* combat; every bit of the combat in this game is built around telegraphing.

    Your negative judgment of a “Telegraphing” system in general makes me wonder what you are doing here in the first place.

    That people are responding to your Big Ass Thread of Ignorance of W*; makes me wonder how bored people are ;) .
  14. Rumze

    Rumze "That" Cupcake

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    Seriously bored. The visions of the devs may not match yours and thats fine that you can argue your points to get across why yours should be considered as well. As you should.
    But the tone is just off putting and arrogant.
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  15. Crucifer

    Crucifer Cupcake-About-Town

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    I want to clarify when I say soft I mean it's forgotten it's roots. LOTR's to DnD to UO to EQ to WoW...these games used to be number crunching, mathematical calculations to perfect a character. To live in a world that was challenging, full of obstacles, full of new adventures that took choices and events and made it challenging. You couldn't just walk into a city in DnD and the mayor give you his golden sword with levitation just for showing up. No you had to go level up through side quests so that you could come back and slay the dragon plaguing his town. Then you got rewards. In DnD this possibly took 3-5 months. In EQ this took 6-8 months. In WoW it took 3-4 months. But it was never just flat out mind numbingly easy.

    WoW didn't start off with 12 million players they barely started with 300,000. You don't need to launch with 3 million players to be successful. You need to launch with a game that has a core platform that is fun to play. The gamers will come in time if the game is worth playing. Again I reference DayZ here...

    Worry about making a game worth playing and the money will show up. Don't worry about the money first.
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  16. Crucifer

    Crucifer Cupcake-About-Town

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    It's not Ignorance it's experience. I've been around a long time. I've played all the MMOs that have came and gone. I've tried the worst of the worst and hoped for the best of a lot of them. These are my consolidated hopes that W* avoids not to diss the developers, but to avoid the pitfalls of their predecessors.

    Telegraphing to me is casual friendly. Sure laying out mazes and patterns can be a cool mechanic here and there (look at the first boss in SWTOR's first raid, same circle telegraph mechanic) but it doesn't mean I need every single move telegraphed for me to know to dodge something when the enemies cannon is turning bright red. It's casual friendly. I've watched every video of the game play that I could find on youtube and it all looks too easy. To mapped out, and too noob friendly to ever be truly challenging.
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  17. Haburik

    Haburik New Cupcake

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    Well said.
  18. Crucifer

    Crucifer Cupcake-About-Town

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    Here is the part as a casual that you are not seeing. This hurts the 1%er's a lot. They see casuals with slightly less powerful gear that looks exactly the same as theirs...why are they busting their ass 10x as hard to get slightly farther ahead of someone doing 10x less work? Going through 10x less stress? And for what so that when you walk into a city together the average person can't tell you two a part?

    This is the exact reason casuals don't realize the damage they do to the core foundation of quality of life. These little things that you enjoy feeling just as empowered as the hardcore guy means that the epicness of being hardcore is removed completely. And the 1%er's who are always on, always vocal, and always willing to broadcast their accomplishments quit. (Exodus / Vodka...most recently) Because why is it worth doing at that point?
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  19. TeoH

    TeoH Well-Known Cupcake

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    WoW didn't start with 12 million players because when WoW launched the entire western MMO market across all titles wasn't as large as that. WoW's ridiculous subscriber base is due to it being single handedly responsible for an explosion in the number of western gamers playing MMOs - not old EQ and UO players, but completely fresh heads with no prior experience. There's a reason "WoW was the first MMO" is a meme, it's because it was and still is the first MMO for a huge number of people. It wasn't Naxx that did that.

    People who can't be happy unless other people are unhappy are not a good demographic to design a game for. I'm not against the idea of unique cosmetics as a carrot for harder content, but keep in mind that any enjoyment which depends on other people's suffering isn't sustainable.
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  20. Moor

    Moor New Cupcake

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    I will have to point out that every single video of gameplay on youtube is from low level solo content. You seriously do need to keep this in mind.


    This is 100% irrelevant in regards to the point he was making. It is also quite aggressive. You sort of do need appropriate rewards for activities of varying difficulty. It has nothing to do with unhappiness of other people, but rather with you feeling rewarded for doing a difficult thing. Similarly, doing a very easy thing and getting a great reward will infinitely diminish the value of that great reward.
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