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Accessibility Discussion

Discussion in 'WildStar General' started by Praiz, Mar 14, 2013.

  1. Praiz

    Praiz Cupcake-About-Town

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    Since we seem to have a lot to discuss on this topic, it was suggested that a second thread be created instead of cluttering and derailing the thread regarding cross-server interaction.

    I'll post the video I posted there as well, credit to the reddit thread it came from; fantastic find.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8rd0-zVIBVo

    If you don't have time to watch it, or would just like some recaps on the content of the video I'll list some points that struck me. They can hopefully serve as useful quotes for people's opinions.

    • Less than 1% of the population playing World of Warcraft at the time, experienced Naxxramas (we're talking Vanilla)
    • TBC was released on 16th of January, 2007 - The Final boss of the first tier raid died on the 29th of January, 2007 - 13 days after the expansions release
    • High King Maulgar - The first boss in the first 25 man raid instance died on the 26th of January - 10 days after the expansions release
    • Gruul, the second and final boss of the first 25 man raid instance died on the 3rd of Febuary
    • Magtheridon - the second 25man raid died on the 24th of February, 6 weeks after the expansions release.
    • Lady Vashj the final boss of Serpentshrine Cavern, the first full raid instance, died on the 29th of March, 2 and a half months after the game was released, she was in the game from the beginning of the expansion.
    • Kael'Thas, the final boss of the other complete raid instance died on the 25th of May, almost a month after Lady Vashj.
    • Blizzard released the next tier of raiding content, before anyone had killed Kael'Thas. The last boss of the previous content.
    • Blizzard's next expansion - Wrath of the Lich King had all the first raid bosses killed within 48 hours of release, that includes levelling 70-80, gearing, and raiding. 48 hours.

    Aside from the video, how do people feel about things like attunements, journeys you have to go on, stepping stones, if you will, to the next level, eventually culminating in the raids.

    Do people generally think it's unacceptable that content be so difficult that only 1% of the playerbase experience it? What's not to say that's not right, in fact, ideal?

    I'd like to leave some of my views and opinions for the discussion, but please, let me know what your thoughts are.
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  2. Black Wolf

    Black Wolf Super Cupcake

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    Attunements: Very good for gating content. Also a way to make sure people are skilled enough for doing the content. One note: attunements should be soloable so it wont force guildies to do it over and over again.

    Plus I really liked the key system in The Burning Crusade. It made sure people did every bit of content the developers created for us. I had a whole chart on which I could check off 'gates' and keys.
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  3. Slyndria

    Slyndria Cupcake-About-Town

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    I miss the old days of WoW! Bring them back!
  4. Praiz

    Praiz Cupcake-About-Town

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    Yep, loved the key system as well.

    Mentioning solo attunements, if that's the case, what sort of attunements would you like to see? How far should the game make you travel? If you sat down to focus purely on getting attuned, how long do you think is reasonable to expect someone to spend?
  5. Black Wolf

    Black Wolf Super Cupcake

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    Like I said, attunements are a great way to check if a player can do the content which (s)he is attuning for. So the harder the content, the harder the attunement should be. This doesn't have to be longer at all. Make it a questline to remember is all I ask. I still remember the Molten Core and Black Wing Lair attunement quests. And lets not forget the awesome and amazing Onyxia questline with an ending that made you feel like a hero.
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  6. Praiz

    Praiz Cupcake-About-Town

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    Indeed, god they nailed it back then. I guess my question wasn't about how long it should take, but you summed up what I meant with 'a questline to remember'. I think that's the important part.
  7. Gempulse

    Gempulse Cupcake-About-Town

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    I am all for attunements, because it gives the player a sense of epic adventure leading up until the actual raid. Doing the raid feels more epic when you have completed an attunement chain.

    I think inaccessibility is a good design in MMOs, because it allows players to be constantly be striving to achieving the next great goal.

    Too much accessibility ruined WoW.
  8. Elthic

    Elthic Cupcake-About-Town

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    I have been following most of the new different MMOs over the last few years, and I have noticed that the reason most of these games fail is because the majority of the content is so accessible that players get bored with the game fairly quickly, and then quit. They having nothing to work towards till the next big patch, which is usually months later(there are exceptions). Though, in a lot of those games released it seems as though the end game was heavily neglected in development, and the game didn't seem ready for a release which caused those games to fail (This seems like something Wildstar is trying to avoid).

    For Wildstar to be successful the elder game needs to be ready(not rushed or neglected), and finally it needs to have barriers that cause the player to work towards something that isn't just a you can't enter here yet, because it hasn't been released for a week. I am all for attunements, and forcing players to go through the game step by step, and completing certain things in order to advance to raids. However, I believe that 40 mans are almost a gate in themselves, and that getting 40 people ready to group at a raid level is an accomplishment in itself.
  9. Celtkhan

    Celtkhan Well-Known Cupcake

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    I'm of the opinion that the BWL and Ony attunements were too long; getting my key to Kara was pretty epic, though. I still miss my tankbag full of keys (and my rogue saying " Keys? I don't need no STEEEEENKING keys!").

    I love collecting keys, I don't know why. I also tend to collect mounts and pets, but nothing gives me the same feeling as walking up to a dungeon door, cracking it open, and saying "ta-dah!"
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  10. Shadydemise

    Shadydemise Cupcake

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    I think attunements should be required for all end-game raids. They force players to experience content on a tiered approach that really fosters the development of the "Elder-game journey" referenced in the video. They've said 40-man raids are going to be extremely difficult. Why not require you to master some of the 5-man dungeons prior to being able to enter? I don't think it should be "solo-able" but it should be able to be done without a raid. Completing long quest chains and 5-man dungeons seem like a great route to return to for attunements.

    As Elthic mentioned, returning to 40-man raids is somewhat of an accomplishment itself. Given Carbine's previous mentions about 40-man raiding being for the "hardcore", I think we'll approach this model (more-so than any other recent game). I also don't think raids are something that has to be experienced by 100% of the community. They should be something that takes effort, dedication, skill, and possibly some luck. That said, I realize the problem that arises when you want to give everyone a taste of what raiding is.

    For this reason, I am in favor of a very difficult elder-game raiding tier. If they want to make an introductory raid that is a bit easier, that's fine. However, it should merely serve as an introduction to what 40-man raiding is all about. Killing a "final" boss should be the culmination of the "raiding journey". However, that seems to be missing when bosses can be killed within the first few days of release.

    Lastly, I think the highest tier of raiding should always seem near-impossible. After all, that is what keeps players trying to progress. "In a raid, no boss is impossible (as bleak as it may seem)." While that mentality may not always be true (due to bugs, etc.), it is through adversity that we display the extraordinary things players can do when they put their minds to it. I think by returning to a difficult raiding system, players will rise to the occasion and show they can succeed.

    All of that said, I'd like to reflect on one point of the video that I had forgotten about the Burning Crusade. Blizzard released the Black Temple before anyone could even go in it!! They did not nerf Kael'thas to allow the progression, but rather, offered raiders extra motivation to finish the tier of raiding. From today's standards, that's pretty ballsy by Blizzard :p I wonder what the public reception would be if something similar happened today.
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  11. Patrician

    Patrician "That" Cupcake

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    I actually agree that content being insanely difficult can never be a bad thing. I also believe that WoW taking away 40 mans and making Naxxramus the last gigantically difficult raid was a mistake.

    Sure, 1% of the population at the time might have seen the content... but that's only because it wasn't there long enough. I think Blizzard didn't factor in the fact that more and more raid alliances were slowly developing.

    To top it off, the minute it was announced that Burning Crusade was coming and the level cap would be raised and greens would then become BETTER than raid gear, a TON of people lost interest in raiding until TBC was going to come. Only a handful of Vanilla raiders continued to raid once TBC was announced, and even then, we all were a bit worried at the time how losing the 40 man system was going to change us.

    It changed us quite a lot. There were arguments, people wanting certain people to join THEIR 25 man group, and just a lot of drama. I think that contributed quite a bit to the overall number of raiders at the time as well when TBC first came out. A ton of us were burnt and never even recovered fully.

    I remember I had the perfect opportunity to get back into raiding with Karazhan. Running it with 10 people... meh. It's sad because it was such a lovely designed instance, but it was a cakewalk. It was just so... easy. >.< We were all new to the raid at the time and the leader was the only one who had done it before, but he'd watched a lot of videos and he basically explained every fight to us and we didn't wipe ONCE. And things only got easier from there as I understand it.

    Now one important thing to remember in this discussion is we all may be guilty of rose colored glasses here to some extent. Those players who didn't raid as much in vanilla (You know, apparently 99% of the playerbase) might not all have liked the difficult bar of entry to get into raiding at the time. It is important to make sure there is content for them at cap that makes THEM feel special, and epic.

    However it's also important to remember that the WoW raiding scene didn't have very good social tools in place to get 40 people together to raid. If WildStar gives people better organization tools, and in game calenders, and message "reminders" that pop up like an alarm, and raid tools, then 40 mans can retain their difficult encounters but allow players to band together and organize more efficiently and easier. People who shunned the content previously might change their minds and actually want to try it. That would be wonderful!

    However content should never be easy. Then what's the point of playing these games, in groups? Heck even the single player stuff should be difficult in high levels! A single misclick and you should be in trouble. If you don't dodge out of that power attack, you die!

    I don't think we need to worry about WildStar in the "will it be difficult enough" department, though. They seem to suggest in various talks they want to make the content at cap very challenging. I just hope they live up to it.

    (Also yeah, the key quests to unlock raids were AWESOME! And it also brought people together and was something you could do in small groups or even solo sometimes yet was "preparing" you for "psyching you up" for the big raid. I think their return would be absolute heaven.)
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  12. richio89

    richio89 New Cupcake

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    I loved all the attunement quests and keys, it was like a badge of honor to show of all the hard work and dedication, it also showed a progression path. The problem with MMO's now is the mentality of players that they want content now and i believe Wildstar's biggest problem if they do add attunement quests would be to change that mentality but if the attunement content is enjoyable i dont think that will be a problem.
  13. Celtkhan

    Celtkhan Well-Known Cupcake

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    Patrician, I have to disagree on your opinion of Karazhan. For the best raiders, it probably was a cakewalk. When I walked in with my crafted/normal dungeon drop blues (I think the only purples I had was the Aldor rep sword, which wasn't even itemized for tanking), I thought it was pretty hard. We took down Attumen on the second attempt, but he was just a gear check; it took us a couple weeks to down Moroes, and when we finally did, it was so late we had to call it.

    I think after about a month, we'd gotten as far as the Chess Event (which is when RL forced me to bow out). Kara is, in my mind, one of the better intros to raiding I've seen. It required a small enough group that casuals could still do it as a guild event, but complex enough to teach you what raiding entailed. Maiden was certainly not an easy fight for a spellcaster!

    I raided Molten Core through Executus in a raid alliance (yup, pure casual here), but when I compare the two, I enjoyed Kara more.
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  14. Patrician

    Patrician "That" Cupcake

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    Oh one thing I'd like to say about attunements and key quest chains. Make them long, make them epic, make them span all over the world (or even ship rides to other planet "instances" ?) But only make us do them ONCE. After that, allow us to give "copies" of the keys or attunement process to our alts.

    Yup, and that's actually the popular opinion I believe. MOST people I've talked to loved Karazhan. I liked the story elements, and how we were finally exploring Medivh's grand castle/mansion, and how the stage was a different production each time so the fight was always different (wonderful design) and how fun the encounters and story telling was.

    I loved all that! However, it did not feel like a raid to me, not in the least. It felt like an epic dungeon run. And it was very easy for me and those with me, and it put me off raiding just because the game had changed from what I enjoyed.

    But that's always gonna be a personal experience. As you yourself prove, lots of people may have originally found the content challenging and a good bar for entry. ^^ Also remember too... didn't they nerf Kara? At some point, didn't they make it easier? My experience there could have been AFTER said nerf, dunno.
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  15. Lethality

    Lethality "That" Cupcake

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    That video is brilliant, by the way :)

    I think a step back to difficult team content is absolutely key. Players who complete the content quickly, and without challenge, grow bored and are likely to leave the game. I absolutely feel it's better for the game and themselves if they *try* content and don't complete it, rather than complete it quickly. LFR has flushed WoW end-game into entirely new sewers.

    So, team content shouldn't be something designed for everyone... And not even all of those that it IS designed for will get to see it through to completion (before other content replaces it.) I think that is as it should be. At least for my money.

    Also, attunements are a good thing, because it gets back to the crux of needing to play as a team reliably and accountably. It was a bit of a pain to back-flag new guild members when they came on board sometimes... But even then, it put for value on the process for them, and value on them for us. For us, it was even a part of the application process when possible.

    So for me, difficult team content is absolutely integral to building a strong social structure (which these games thrive on) as well as longevity.
  16. Joukehainen

    Joukehainen Well-Known Cupcake

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    See my signature for my thoughts on the matter. :D

    Yup and I agree, imo that's a good thing. I wrote a post as to why here, I'll repost the crux of it:

    TLDR: gating, raid attunements and difficult content gives people a goal to work up to and a reason to keep playing. Too many games, MMOs included are too focused on 'accessibility' which often ends up translating into dungeons and raids that are just boring zergfests. Devs should find a niche, not try to go for mass appeal bc lately, most MMO devs have been going for mass appeal and it so far hasn't really worked for any of them. :p

    /agree with Black Wolf on this:

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  17. Extatica

    Extatica Super Cupcake

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    Seeing alot of your posts I have the feeling you where a hardcore raider. I myself was a ''semi-hardcore'' PvP'er throughout all of WoW but only at WoTlk (and begin TBC) have I started raiding.

    To me and my guild (consisted mostly of PvP'ers and sometime we raided once in a while), we thought Karazhan was awesome for those times we didn't want to PvP with the guild. It was a great introduction to raid content, yes I admit it was too easy (even for a PvP guild). But if they made it just a bit harder, even we would be fine with it.

    Blizzard made the grief mistake (with TBC but mostly with Wotlk), to make ALL (or almost all) raid content acceseble by less hardcore people.

    Not always a wrong thing to do, but in my opinion it would be better if they have made the change to acces a raid go up by a bigger amount then they did in TBC (but mayby a bit less then in Vanilla).

    Karazhan was almost 125% acces (PvP'ers could do this in TBC so it wasn't really 100%) but the % of acces of the raids didn't went down fast enough.

    Hard to say it correctly without using my own language but i'll try to give some examples.

    The % is the acces a raid has my the players.
    How it was: ------------------------How it should be to me:
    Raid 1: 100% ----------------------------Raid 1: 100%
    Raid 2: 90% -----------------------------Raid 2: 75%
    Raid 3: 80% -----------------------------Raid 3: 50%
    Raid 4: 70% -----------------------------Raid 4: 25%
    Raid 5: 60% -----------------------------Raid 5: 5%

    The first column can be even higher because I stopped raiding with WoTlk because it was too easy. But I don't think the last raid should be accesed by everyone but a 1-2% is a bit low to me.... a 5% would be better to me! (my opinion!)

    This is just to show you guys how I think the % acces should drop the further you get in the raid content of the game. The way it should be with me is that the first raid may be open to all people but don't let ALL raids have a high % of acces....this happend in WoTlk the most obvious. All raids in WoTlk could be done by almost anyone in my opinion. This should NOT be the case, or atleast not so easily. Make it HARDER for people to get to the next raid!

    But by atleast making 1 raid have a 100% or almost 100% acces, you make alot of people happy to just get the ''raiding'' feeling. And mayby with this you can get more people to the next raid because they now have a ''feeling'' for raiding, and they try to get better.

    But this is just my opinion :D

    Also + to the attunments, it's great story wise. Good to get accostumed to the Lore and just great to strife for getting acces to a raid by obtaining a key or in Wildstar case some kind of electronic device?
  18. Joukehainen

    Joukehainen Well-Known Cupcake

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    Good post Extatica and I agree generally, though one idea is that people first have to be dungeon/instance attuned and go through them all (like in good ol' WoW days) before they can get to see the raid. That way Raid 1 isn't 100% accessible. Personally I like that structure better bc it forces people to first learn their class, role, and group play in more manageable numbers before going into a 40-man, where it's so easy to be carried and never learn or even be aware that you're doing something wrong.
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  19. Celtkhan

    Celtkhan Well-Known Cupcake

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    I don't believe in limiting access just for the sake of limiting access. The Kara key chain was long and involved, but you could do it in a (somewhat long) day of gaming. It wasn't soloable, since you had to mostly/completely finish three dungeons, but you COULD PuG it. You didn't have to badger your guildmates into helping out.

    That said, I do agree with the Sunwell Vials attunement (if I recall correctly, you had to beat Kael'thas and Vashj to get into Mount Hyjal CoT). That sort of thing is pretty much a "you must be X tall to ride this ride." You need a certain level of gear/skill/coordination or this place will stomp you flat.

    If you must limit content, limit it by challenge. Make it hard. We play games for the thrill of Victory, not phat l00tz. We want the gear to show off our skill, not for the sake of having it. In my days in CoH, we scrappers showed off by making vids of soloing Archvillains. I still remember the day I soloed Bobcat. She was one of the weaker AVs, but I did it! It took 12 minutes and everything I could throw at her, but I did it. And I got absolutely nothing for it (she wasn't even required for beating the mission).

    More important to me, though, is that raids should be fun and interesting, and the first one should be the most fun and the most interesting, even if it's a "training wheels" raid (like some feel Kara was). My first raid experience was Molten Bore. Wandering through a cave where everything was brown (the walls) or orange (the lava). You could count on one hand the number of unique enemy types (fire elementals, core hounds, fire naga, rock elementals, and Rags himself). Kara, on the other hand, was a stable, a dining hall, a library, ruins, kitchen, living quarters, and more! You faced humanoids, ghosts, zombies, demons, dragons, elementals, golems, werewolves, etcetc. It was FUN. It was Epic. And for those who'd never really raided before, it was hard, but so worth it. Anyone who was a raider could pretty much skip it, too. I remember there were alternate ways of getting Kara-class epics.
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  20. Extatica

    Extatica Super Cupcake

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    I meant the acces 100% after you obtained the attunement :p

    But just 1 more thing looking at the video aswell, releasing EASY content makes people finish it early, makes people want to get new content faster then normal, makes game designers have less time to create new content, makes the content that comes less hard and less well thought off, makes the people finish it even faster, makes......etc.....etc...

    Too much acces is just a down ward spiral to making it a rubbish game. They need to avoid that.

    Looking at the WSC atm i see alot of grown up people, adult conversations. Almost NO kid reactions (mayby there are, but I haven't checked each post :D), but I hope Wildstar will want to make this game for the ''normal'' players. I don't want them to agree with all the crying kids, every game has those kind of players that want everything but don't have the skills for it, well if you aint a miljonair (in real life) do you think someone will give you a villa just because you think everyone deserves to get ''THAT CONTENT''. Not everything in life is accesable, deal with it and try to grow! Grow in power, know your class, know the raid, help others, make good guilds/party's to overcome problems etc.

    Gash the reason I quit wow is because I could quit WoTlk for 2-3 month and come back and just as easily down the next raid without spending alot of time on it....too easy --> is a no go.
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