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Accessibility Discussion

Discussion in 'WildStar General' started by Praiz, Mar 14, 2013.

  1. Cassp

    Cassp Cupcake

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    I'm gonna get all contraversial here, My worry is they have an off idea of what hard content is. There are so many people who believe that vanilla wow was the hardest raiding wow had ever seen (this is the controversial part). But people must consider how the raiding community had grown and evolved in the past 6 years, as an example if you dumped a current world first guild from wow back into vanilla, i'd hate to inform you, but skill wasn't the main barrier.
  2. Gempulse

    Gempulse Cupcake-About-Town

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    I'm worried about what their definition of difficult is, also. We will just have to wait to find out!
  3. Naunet

    Naunet Well-Known Cupcake

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    This is very true. The bulk of raid encounters in Vanilla WoW were not very complex mechanics-wise, with a large amount of just "move from [fire] when it spawns on you". Not particularly interesting. Since we're talking relative to WoW, I hope WS's perception of difficulty is more 25man heroic Lich King or Yogg-Saron zero lights or Sinestra or heroic Spine of Deathwing, in terms of complexity.
  4. Bellaby

    Bellaby Well-Known Cupcake

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    Well, I think Vanilla WoW raiding was also hard because there wasn't really anywhere for people to look up strategies yet, so we all had to just wing it : /

    In fact, nowadays only one guild has to figure out the trick to a fight, and then everyone else knows.
    And there really isn't a way to combat this, outside of Developers finding these tricks and changing the boss in a devious way to disallow it the following week.
  5. Naunet

    Naunet Well-Known Cupcake

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    There is a way - do less scripted fights and more RNG-based, dynamic fights, and code bosses that react differently depending on certain things players do. Basically, take the kind of boss AIs you get in a lot of good single-player RPGs and stick 'em in MMO raid bosses.
  6. Cassp

    Cassp Cupcake

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    You wouldn't get some of the best fights of all time like yogg 0 or hc lk with that. But all fights have RNG, on HC LK you would get horrible insta wipe defiles and tanks getting pretty much one shot but that was phased out quickly as he got nerfed. On yogg zero you could get really horrible mind links and pretty much had to insta wipe.
  7. Naunet

    Naunet Well-Known Cupcake

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    I was just providing a means of avoiding the downside to scripted encounters (one person figuring out the strategy and then everyone having the strategy), not saying it was the best way. I think a healthy mix of scripted, executionally complex fights and ones that are much more RNG and dynamic would be a nice balance.
  8. MrBushido

    MrBushido Cupcake

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    I really hope W* takes a feather from Vanilla/TBCs cap in terms of raiding difficulty and progression. Inaccessible content made them so much more fun. I didn't get past C'thun in Vanilla, I never entered Sunwell during TBC, however the experiences I had raiding through them were fantastic. There is nothing wrong with only killing 5/10 bosses for a few weeks, for me it only makes killing that boss so much sweeter. The cries on vent of "omg 10%, "5%" then the thundering roar of a guild cheering because they finally got that kill.

    I also hope that W* has attunements that require you to have cleared at least a decent portion of the previous raids content, that they make you travel the world and unlock new bosses/events in existing dungeons. It adds to the atmosphere of raiding, you're not just entering a raid to kill a pinata of items and tokens, you're literally on a quest to save the world from a new threat. There is nothing wrong with having to clear old content, sure add some new vendor gear along with new raiding instances to help aid guilds through the old content and get attuned. However just being able to walk to the door of the latest raid deprives new players of a ton of content. Instead of new players getting to see 4 tiers of content, they only get to see 1 or 2 while they farm item points to get ready for the next tier. Again, sure, let them get items from vendors to help them on the journey, but make them go through all 4 tiers in sequence.

    There's also an irony in saying that a vocal minority are trying to force carbine in making the game inaccessible to some players based off things like percentages of people who actually saw content. The reason the percentages can appear so low is because not everybody raids. Some people Raid, some people play battlegrounds, some people play arena, some people make 20 level 10s on 5 different servers, some people like running around pvp zones killing other players, some people like crafting items, some people like playing the auction house, some people like like to roleplay, hell some people like using it as a glorified chat client. To say that only 1% of people of saw naxxramas in that context seems somewhat biassed, I wonder how many of the 99% even hit level 60 let alone were even interested in raiding.

    That said, for those who were interested in raiding even after reaching the level cap 12 months after launch, there was a ton of content available to them. They had to go to Molten Core, then Blackwing Lair, then Ahn'Qiraj. It didn't matter that they never saw Naxxramas because they had plenty of content to do, just like the handful of guilds that were struggling their way through Naxxramas. Why? Because of difficulty and inaccessibility.
    Mierelle likes this.
  9. Lethality

    Lethality "That" Cupcake

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    I know this is a hot topic, but what Blizzard has done with LFR is everything that is wrong with the genre. What is supposed to be the hard content - the stuff that players are supposed to strive to achieve - should not be presented in a "walking tour" fashion. The players who do LFR are simply not raiding, and therefore they're not getting the gameplay experience that was intended by that sort of content. That means they perceive it to be something else entirely, get bored quickly, complain and quit. Because there was no challenge whatsoever.

    Thankfully for raiding, Carbine isn't making any apologies about it being difficult and inaccessible. And as BW said, there will be plenty of elder game content for the folks who don't like to raid but still want to progress their character and participate in the story!

    Edit: Actually, what you mention about LFR being a raid prep tool... it is not intended to be part of the progression. But because of the "accessibility" many players just walk through it to gear up, which further contributes to the deterioration. Many of those would-be raiders actually bail out because they've seen the content and have gear similar to the raid gear, with 20x less time and effort.
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  10. MrBushido

    MrBushido Cupcake

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    The funny thing is that adding normal mode raids and even easier LFR raids is redundant if you just force players to play the previous content. In vanilla you had to go do dungeons of varying difficulty, mini 10-man raids like scholomance and ubrs, then progress through each tier of 40-man raiding content. By the time you got to the challenging content you were more than ready for it, progressing through content forced you to learn how to play well. The separation of normal modes and the removal of attunements is kind of sad, instead of new players going through many tiers of content, you end up having to play the content same content you have to play on "hard" mode to have a challenge.
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  11. Lgr

    Lgr Cupcake

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    And there, is where you implement a harder mode for the already existing raid, you can make a somewhat "Easy", but you still have that mode that is challenging for the people who can go further, takeing in mind that they want to actualize their PVE every week, they can tweak the harder mode on its own if they see that it is not that challenging for the top notch players
  12. MrBushido

    MrBushido Cupcake

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    That easier content is already there, it's the content leading up raids and/or the early raids themselves. Why would you want to deprive yourself of a slightly more difficult challenge and the motivation not being able to instantly progress to new content without clearing old content first. People are saying the "we want inaccessible content" people are self-entitled, but as somebody that never saw naxxramas or sunwell, technically I'm asking for Carbine to create content that I won't see and the people that want to see it are the entitled types.

    And as you said, they can tweak difficulties after the fact. If they make everything extremely difficult to begin with, they can always tone it down when they release new content.
  13. Kataryna

    Kataryna Super Cupcake

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    (i'm behind on the thread, but had to reply to this)

    i'm sorry, i did 10 man "raids" in WoW. they're not "raids," they're just large dungeon groups. look at UBRS (and Scholomance and Stratholme) when it was 15man (then 10man), that was actually a dungeon not a raid. it was never classified as a "raid" by Blizzard, the first raid in WoW was Molten Core and then came Onyxia's Lair. Carbine is not being elitist about the content, they're giving the people that do not wish to raid the ability to do other things that interest them (5 man dungeons, small group content, solo stuff, crafting, housing, etc, etc, etc). if you want to raid, do it! will it be hard? yes! will it be annoying for people who don't like the 20/40 man set up? sure, but if you really do want to raid, it's what you get. Make an alliance with another guild that only has 10 people that want to raid and go do 20mans, or an alliance with 4 guilds that only have 10 people wanting to raid and do 40 mans. I for one am happy that Carbine are sticking to their guns about what they see for the game.

    also, Carbine has said that Raids are not the one and only place you're going to be getting Lore and Story content. They're adding the solo content as Elder Game Stories.
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  14. Celtkhan

    Celtkhan Well-Known Cupcake

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    Kat, while I agree that 10-mans are more akin to "biggerized" dungeons, I have to disagree on the classification. In WoW, you can't have a group larger than 5 without pressing a button marked "convert to raid." Whether they called it a raid in the marketing bits, it was, technically, a raid.

    This is probably my biggest issue with WS endgame (and if it is the biggest "problem," then this game will be the best I' e ever played); I prefer my "dungeons" to be relatively short, but I don't like hugeass raids. I like the Karazhan model: big enough to be worth the time investment of a raid, but a small enough group size to feel like a dungeon run. I sincerely hope we get an in-between content at some point, even if it's only a one-off. Don't call it a raid or a dungeon, come up with a new term. Citadel, maybe?
  15. Black Wolf

    Black Wolf Super Cupcake

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    Sorry, but I have to correct you on this, but it's the other way around. First Ony, then MC! :D
  16. Slyndria

    Slyndria Cupcake-About-Town

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    I just pray to the raid God's that 40 man loot is quite a bit better then 20 man loot!
  17. Slyndria

    Slyndria Cupcake-About-Town

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    What about LBRS and UBRS, they were both in before Mc and Ony and you could take multi groups into these instances.
  18. Black Wolf

    Black Wolf Super Cupcake

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    They weren't considered raids.
  19. Drasas

    Drasas Well-Known Cupcake

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    MC and Onyxia were both enabled on the day 1 patch that you downloaded before you logged into Warcraft for the first time...
  20. Kataryna

    Kataryna Super Cupcake

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    what Black Wolf said...they were not "Raids" they were dungeon instances. Vanilla WoW only recognized 40mans as a "Raid", doesn't matter that you had to "convert to raid" to add more people after the 5, it was not (not! sorry, not!) a raid.
    and actually, you were insane for taking less than 10-15 into UBRS at the beginning...

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