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'Achievements' vs targets you set for yourself

Discussion in 'WildStar General' started by ChiaraBadger, Sep 30, 2013.

  1. ChiaraBadger

    ChiaraBadger New Cupcake

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    I've been, uh, thinking a lot about vanilla WoW recently.

    Something that has struck me quite strongly is how much more enjoyable the play is when you work through goals you set for yourself.

    I can understand why Achievements were brought in. GW2 went the whole hog and 'rewarded' you for everything - completing the map, completing all the quests in the region, etc. But the reality was that this turned it into a massive, soul-destroying grind. If in WoW I decide to complete a map that's just for fun. I get a sense of achievement but nothing else.

    The rewards system in GW2 turned it into something imposed upon me rather than something I chose. That took all the fun out of it.

    I suppose what I'm saying is: I hope Wildstar keeps that sandbox element of allowing players to pick their own projects, rather than listing hundreds of achievements that sound good in theory but in practice means that everyone is grinding through the same tasks with no sense of joy or choice.
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  2. Pejo

    Pejo Cupcake-About-Town

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    Make achievement points meaningless and that will achieve the same thing. Achievements do make someone feel special when they pop up - we can see this as almost every modern game has achievements in some form. I do want to see them myself - there is nothing stopping you from setting your own goals/achievements.
  3. HappinessFactory

    HappinessFactory Cupcake

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    I completely agree being forced to grind achievements to get an item skin blows (talkin about GW2). However I am a fan of titles, but I don't like when they're rewarded for grinding (like the freaking reputation titles in WoW). I prefer titles that make people think "wow that guy is good" instead of "wow that guy wasted so much time on that title".
  4. zekkdarklighter

    zekkdarklighter Cupcake

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    I like titles that are fun. Not just 'good player' titles, but the ones that are "wow, you accidentally did What?" kind. Like if there was a title attatched to the going down achieve in wow, that would be funny
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  5. HappinessFactory

    HappinessFactory Cupcake

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    zekkdarklighter​
    <AKA semi-pro sky diver>​
    Yeah I think wildstar has a lot of opportunities and the right sense of humor for a lot of titles like that haha. Hopefully they won't disappoint us on that front.​
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  6. Veckna

    Veckna Well-Known Cupcake

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    Achievements are like a red rag to a bull for me :oops:

    That being said I think cosmetic or title style rewards are generally better for rewards that require a large time investment ("The Insane" title from WoW would be a prime example - loads of boring grinding but the end goal of that title made it worthwhile for me personally when doing that achievement on my WotLK reroll character).

    For achievements based around player skill but not requiring too much of a time investment (things like the 5 man instance achievements in WotLK where you had to achieve additional goals/complete boss fights in specific ways) I'd say are more likely targets for more meaningful rewards if that type of reward is desired by developers. Again, I tend to be satisfied by the feeling of completion in 'beating' the challenges myself but I know that's not for everybody (the same way I'd raid to beat bosses even if they dropped no loot and others would think I was mad for doing so).

    Not sure how it will work out in Wildstar as I thought they mentioned a sort of currency based reward system for achievements (or am I just getting confused?) - if that's the case it may mean if you only want a specific reward or two then there's no need to 'grind' achievements, but if you want the whole bunch then you'll need put more effort into actively seeking out and completing achievements?
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  7. Baeldan

    Baeldan Cupcake-About-Town

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    To an extent I agree with this, but I wouldn't say WoW has a sandbox-ier reward scheme though. WoW just has more aesthetic rewards while GW2 has more utility and convenience rewards.

    Like you, I'd raid to kill bosses even if they didn't drop loot. However, if that was the case I'd stop playing the game after I've killed each boss once because there's nothing left and I would have effectively 'finished' the game.

    I think the game should support player-driven goals with achievements, but the rewards shouldn't be experience, currency, or items. The way WoW does it with aesthetic rewards - be they titles, mounts or just achievements - is the way to go. You have persistent recognition for your accomplishments, but you're not missing out on a big experience boost by not 100%-ing zones and whatnot.

    They could add housing components to the mix too I guess. Although it'd kinda be annoying if I had to go get an achievement I don't want to do in order to get that nice whiskey glass set for my house that I want. Hmm I dunno.

    Of course this doesn't mean every single thing should be (or can be) rewarded. True exploration isn't following the achievement tracker, it's wondering if you can climb that mountain and finding a hidden cave.

    That said, Rift has a very interesting exploration reward system in the form of treasure caches and puzzles. They were actually really fun to do, especially the puzzles. But they rewarded really good gear - level specific and of often epic quality. So of course eventually it was just a matter of looking up the list on a wiki and running around collecting them all. I think it's a good example of really good exploration being ruined by mechanical rewards.
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  8. Zenatsu

    Zenatsu Cupcake-About-Town

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    I set my own goals, it's just that achievements have the same idea.
  9. Psistorm

    Psistorm Cupcake-About-Town

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    I enjoy having achievements, as long as they make sense. They can serve many functions, among them the ability to keep track of what you did.
    Certain games go the wrong route, by tying gameplay rewards into them or by making them nothing but grind-based, like kill 10.000 orcs or something.

    In my eyes, what constitutes a good achievement system? Well for one, if rewards exist, they should be for special feats, like completing all challenges for dungeons, completing all zones etc. And those rewards are cosmetic in nature, like appearance gear, mounts or titles, as well as housing items if games support it. Basically prestige things you can use to show off and go "look people, I accomplished this!".
    The harder the achievement, the more impressive the reward can be; I'm thinking about things like the Ulduar achievement drake and other things. Basically if it is hard, you can get a shiny reward, but it won't impact gameplay, because else it will feel forced.
    I could also see housing trophies for any hardmode bosses you kill, for example, but these could also simply be drops instead.

    So what makes them useful? Well, they can inspire you to set goals for yourself, by giving you a simple overview of what you COULD choose to strive for. Like getting all those dungeon challenges, or completing the map. And they are useful for keeping track of these tasks. They will tell you just how far you have come along the path you chose and how much more you need for completion.

    That said, I hope we get a nice amount of achievements, and that the mundane things are kept few and far between (like "reach level 5!" or "choose a crafting class!" etc), but that the harder to get things and the completionist things are in there, and possibly rewarding in the cosmetic sense.

    Ultimately, I kind of liked what GW2 did, but that system should have been split, so that achievements were one-time things that gave cosmetic only rewards and so that these daily/monthly "achievements" would be split off into their own system.
  10. Mierelle

    Mierelle Cupcake-About-Town

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    I have a love/hate relationship towards achievements, mostly because the majority of the achievements are mere milestone of what the game expect/force me to do, or other achievements. If just playing the game will get me to lvl 50, I don't consider getting to lvl 10, 20, 30, and 40 as an achievement, and thus draw focus from the bigger/'real' achievements.

    This are the type of achievements I do like, but they aren't completely problem free. The achievements or other type of optional rewards should be rewarding the players skill or effort for going out of the original gameplay, but it should not cater the player base towards that optional gameplay.

    Can't say for sure that achievements are at fault for that catering, but looking back at it before the time of the achievements it feels like these kind of accomplishments were harder, rarer and personally more rewarding since they didn't have an achievemnt that everyone was 'expected' to achieve, attatched to them.
  11. Baeldan

    Baeldan Cupcake-About-Town

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    Following in this vein, I'd like to see a good fraction of the achievements be 'hidden' achievements. Perhaps all achievements related to exploration and select others. This means you won't be driven by the knowledge that it exists, but instead you just get this awesome surprise when you do something rad. And it feels even more special because the feat is more 'secret'. Drives players to truly explore the world rather than just follow a checklist.
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  12. ruff_ethereal

    ruff_ethereal Well-Known Cupcake

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    I love achievements for the simple reason that they are set for me; have clear-cut, no cheating parameters; and I have something to show to everyone and most importantly myself when I do them.

    There is a sense of personal satisfaction when you achieve a self-imposed goal. But achievements are just so, so much more fun. There wouldn't be an abundance of trophy rooms IRL otherwise.

    P.S. I played BioShock 2 today on PC, to see if GFWL dying made it better. The Steam achievements wouldn't activate if I didn't log-in to GFWL, logging-in GFWL will auto-patch to latest version, and the latest version is full of bugs the region-locked DLC will fix. (I'm in the Philippines.)

    I stopped playing immediately. That's how big achievements are for me.

    P.P.S. Not to say it's only for the achievements, but it was a huge factor. The lack of controller support and the awkward mouse sensitivity were the first two nails.
  13. Dragnog

    Dragnog Cupcake-About-Town

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    I entirely disagree with this. For me personally the achievements were just an added bonus in Guild Wars 2 and useful way of knowing if I had explored an entire map. In fact by the end of the first map I was not even bothering to look at what level I was at, instead it was about going out into the world and finding stuff. GW2 was designed for people who will end up playing the Explorer's path in Wildstar.

    You argument would suggest that you feel that Exploring is not a valid way of playing the game. Should people not get rewarded for Exploring?

    Also hadn't you by say to yourself "I want to complete all the achievements" set yourself a personal goal? There was nothing from achievements that you could not get in some other way.

    Perhaps in GW2 you were rewarded too much for Exploration, but I actually think that it was a fair balance for the amount of work you needed to put in to do it. It wasn't as if it was the only way to level in that game either.
  14. Mykor

    Mykor Cupcake-About-Town

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    I have a love/hate relationship with achievements.

    Love to have some goals set for me to achieve, things to do in my spare time
    But I hate "useless" (or very easy) achievements. Those that were only put in to increase the number of points. For example, you get an achievement for reaching level 10, level 20, level 30 etc... yes you have done something, but wouldn't one single achievement for reaching max level be enough?
  15. Dragnog

    Dragnog Cupcake-About-Town

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    Would you consider a name change to these calling them something like milestones instead?
  16. Mierelle

    Mierelle Cupcake-About-Town

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    Depending on implementation, Yes.

    If you only implement a name change the difference between 'achievements' and 'milestones' wouldn't really mean much, you would probably just get annoyed over the splitted UI, confusing people what is what etc. If you on the other hand manage to truly make them separate (normal vs. heroic, is the closest example I can think of right now) we're in a whole new situation.

    By simply rename 'achievements' to 'milestones', you will merly cure the symptoms and not the cause.
  17. Draahl

    Draahl Cupcake-About-Town

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    It is true that before achievements entered the MMO-scene for real your personal goals was all you had and tbh it felt glorious.
    You have to understand tho that its not only the nerds who are playing anymore, gaming has become more socially accepted then it was in the 90's for example and this "new" way of thinking in games is to me what is destroying it. Instant gratification, everything needs to be accessable and quick and so on.

    I miss the good old days when you actually had to play the game several times to be able to do everything, when MMO's was extremely time consuming and difficult, where FPS games actually where fast and quick paced, not slow and tactical.

    For me personally, i blaim the whole "it needs to be authentic compared to real life" way of doing things. To me a game needs to be fun, and until we invent holodecks as in Star Trek im still going to want it as artificial as possible ;)
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  18. Xlugon Pyro

    Xlugon Pyro Super Cupcake

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    My only real problem with achievements are achievements that are available for a limited time or on a first come first serve basis such as server firsts. There's nothing actually wrong with them; I just personally don't like there being something that I can't obtain because I didn't get there first.
  19. Jabberwocky

    Jabberwocky Well-Known Cupcake

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    I like achievement to be exactly that, an achievement with a message that pops up. I can understand giving a title or vanity pet as a reward but nothing else. Even those achievements with rewards should be reserved for the hardest and most time consuming.
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  20. Xlugon Pyro

    Xlugon Pyro Super Cupcake

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