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Aircraft. Flight and why it could be awesome.

Discussion in 'WildStar General' started by WakeskaterX, May 25, 2013.

  1. Ohoni

    Ohoni Cupcake-About-Town

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    Maybe. Not really relevant here though, since nobody is on the side of "too much convenience" here. I mean, XYZ teleportation isn't even on the table.

    If it were then it would be in already. They're halfway there, they won't have to reinvent any wheels to implement it, but it's by no means implemented yet.

    It is a strawman because it's a non-problem. It could be a problem, but it's too easy to resolve to actually consider it a reasonable problem. Again, it's like saying "but what if you could rez instantly whenever you wanted?!" It's not something worth getting worked up about because by hook or by crook, it's not going to be happening. If they could not reasonably resolve the JP issue then they would not have flight, but there are too many perfectly valid ways of resolving it that considering that they can't is just preposterous.

    So. . . in other words, "I don't like flying mounts. They are stinky and I don't want them?"

    Look, I can't make you like them, nor do I care to. I can't really expect to change your personal opinion any more than you can change mine. All I'm interested is in settling the rational arguments, not the irrational ones. If there are rational, objective problems that flight could cause, then I would like to resolve those, and I believe I have done so to at least a satisfactory level. There may be better ways to resolve them while keeping flight fun and functional, and Carbine could solve them in completely different ways than I have and that would be fine.

    Basically, there are two elements to this discussion, "why I do/don't like flight," and "why flight would be good/bad for the game."The former element is purely a personal reacton, there's absolutely no point discussing it because that reaction is mostly fixed, at least until we get to try out the system they offer. The latter element is one where substantive discussion can take place, because if there are functional and objective problems that flight might present, it's worth figuring out functional and objective solutions to those problems. I believe we have managed this, so that it all boils down to "Ok, it wouldn't in any way harm the game, but I still don't like it."

    Depends on how the terrain is laid out and how you can traverse it. If there are a lot of pointless box canyons, and on foot you have no way of scaling them, then yeah, flight is probably faster when cutting across them. If the terrain is relatively flat, it wouldn't. I mean, if you take every map in GW2 and allowed flight in them, and tried to travel from one corner to the other, 100% speed flight would be significantly faster than jogging on maybe 10% of the maps, slightly faster on maybe half or more, but for the most part significant detours are not all that necessary to avoid terrain. If flight moved at 90% run speed, or if the runner had Swiftness, they would likely reach their destinations faster on most maps.

    Personally I think they should use the same balance as the many flight-capable superhero MMOs, in that fliers are faster than jogging, but super speed (ground mounts) are much faster than either.

    I think that alone is plenty of reason. Being able to turn on autopilot between destinations is a very useful element to have available. That's one problem I have with getting around in GW2 (without using Waypoints), that you can turn on auto-run and move around with relative convenience, but you still have to pay attention. It's neither engaging enough to actually be fun, nor mindless enough that I can look away and do other things with my attention, which is the worst of both worlds. If travel from A to B is not the most fun part of the game (and out of dozens of MMOs I've never found a single one where it is, except for DCUO and CO, I guess), then the game should try to make it convenient instead.
  2. Livnthedream

    Livnthedream Super Cupcake

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    I find flying in general too convient. Based on many of the arguments I am not alone in that feeling. The sheer fact that you are so dismissive in that regard is part of the problem with conversation.

    Actually, the world building+physics is more like 3/4 of the way there. The actual modeling of the mounts and any animation they require are childs play by comparison. Go play around with an actual engine and then play with 3ds Max. They are worlds apart in complexity, and Hero is almost a play thing in and of itself.

    The fact that Gaffney himself has stated that they did not consider how it trivializes some content speaks volumes. If they did not see an actual problem do you honestly think they would not have changed their stance? Especially with how small a population it is that is yelling at them? I mean even if you cannot use it to directly finish a puzzle, just getting a full 3d point of view makes forming a strategy on how to beat it many times easier.

    Oh please. Your position is certainly not he only "reasonable, functional, objective" side to this. Do not even attempt to pretend that you are unbiased. The sheer fact that you jumped all over the 2 people who said "flight only at max level" and "landing pads" (great idea by the way, the more I think about it the more I like it. Especially since it ties into settler so well!) shows just how unreasonable you actually are. You refuse to give any ground at all, but anything that allows you to have your convience is a ok.

    I would love to see some actual analysis to back that up. My personal experience with the game says you are drastically under representing the sheer number of hills and walls in the game just to make your argument look good. Besides, based on what has been shown and who had a lot of influence in pre production I would take a wild guess and say this is going to be much more similar to WoW than Gw2. Which even in BC the slowest Flying mount was usually faster than an epic ground mount entirely because you did not have to deal with mobs rooting you or knocking you off your mount. In fact there were many zones where it was flat out faster to just fly across the chasms on your jalopy than it was to hit a flightpath. And the flightpath was nearly 3 times the speed.

    A) That is what flightpaths are for.
    B) Why do you need something more convient than a flightpath in the first place?
  3. TeoH

    TeoH Well-Known Cupcake

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    Erm. No.

    Now I am of the opinion that WoW's flying mount design may have ruined flying for everyone by making it seem reasonable or even normal to present flying as a character floating motionlessly in the air and then pressing direction keys to swim. So I am not in any way fond of the way they handled flying mounts, but this paragraph is simply face poundingly wrong.

    In Cataclysm Blizzard went out of their way to make Orgrimmar the default, unquestioned social hub for the expansion by having it be the jump off point for every new zone, and putting all relevant NPC services there. Every player above level 80 had their HS at this city, all travel involved going to Orgrimmar so that you could use a portal to reach any relevant content. It was without argument the enforced player hub for the expansion, just as Dalaran and Shattrah were before it.

    Ontop of having a standard afk hub, Blizzard also made a definite effort to make decked out end game players stand out cosmetically so that all who passed through this hub could be dazzled by their brilliance and wonder how they could aquire the same fluff. Except they didn't (only) do this with the gear, they did it with the flying mounts. Flying mounts by Cata had reached a ridiculous state where they were 5 times the size of a player, elaborately detailed and probably glowing and/or on fire. These flying mounts take the place of Vanilla's Spaulders of Valor, as the way for decked out players to show off while they idle in a city.

    They are the obvious choice for that job, as you can't exactly keep making shoulder armour bigger every year for 7 years, the players still have to fit into the raid instance.

    This is how they incentivised difficult achievements on Cata launch. They put a big volcanic dragon mount in there as a reward for completing the challenges in all heroic modes, and for the raiders they added a guild achievement which hands a big glowing black Phoenix to guilds who clear all the raiding content. Orgrimmar had flight enabled, guilds which got this mount first would afk in the city, and anyone passing through would very clearly see their giant e-penis on display.

    You're trying to suggest that flying mounts in Cata prevented players from gathering in a hub, and that the game's community was somehow damaged by levelling players not seeing impressive cosmetics on idling end game raiders. The reality is the exact opposite, with flying mounts actually providing a far more visible indication of progression than anything they could do with player armour.

    If this situation did not fill you with as much child-like awe as it did 7 years previously, the problem is most likely not with the game.
  4. Ohoni

    Ohoni Cupcake-About-Town

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    Yes, but some people find any number of features "too convenient." Some want the game to be the most grueling, traumatising slog through hell that any gamer has ever experienced. I just chalk that up to "difference of opinion" and ignore them, like those "end of the world" prophets outside the subway station.

    You're forgetting the systems related to assigning mounts, activating mounts, setting up when and where you can and cannot use the mounts, etc. Implementing them completely likely would take a good deal of work fro several teams. Most MMOs have the physics necessary to have basic flight, GW2 for example could easily allow players to "swim in the air" with a simple cheat code, but actually implementing it as a feature is not effortless.

    Depends on how close they let you fly to it.

    I'm not. I'm saying that there are two components to this, the personal opinion side and the fact side. Obviously my personal opinion on this is "I want flight," I make no bones about that, just as yours is "I don't want flight," but then there are the objective points on the matter, points where flight would have a measurable impact on the game. You are trying to make the argument that we shouldn't have flight because there are factual problems involved in having flight, my point is that I've gone through those elements and resolved them. It's a bit like if you have a given food item, and I say "I like that food," and then you say "I don't like that food, and it is unhealthy." All I'm doing is pointing out how it's not at all unhealthy, but you're still free to not prefer the flavor if you like.

    How is that unreasonable. Both of those changes would make flight significantly less fun and convenient, and if it's not fun and convenient, then what's the point? We can't satisfy everyone on this issue, and attempting a compromise that satisfies no one is pointless.

    I would very much hope that mobs will not be able to pull you off your mount, and that CC effects are easily dealt with. Riding a ground mount should not be more hassle than running on foot. If you're on your way from A to B, and you don't want to engage the mobs along the way, you shouldn't have to (in most cases, at least).

    Flight paths typically aren't available from any given point to any other point. If there is no flight path between where you are and where you want to go then it is not an option. Also, flight paths often cost money to use. If flight paths are free and you can charter them from the location you're at to any other location then they would be a suitable compromise, but personally I would prefer open flight.
  5. Solarthermal

    Solarthermal Cupcake

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    No, you wrong. These cities were original hubs of game. Everyone go home there.
  6. WoodGoat

    WoodGoat Cupcake

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    Did you play before Cataclysm? Orgrimmar was the horde city in which people would congregate way before blizzard made all those changes. Alliance side it was Ironforge, and blizzard, instead of adapting Ironforge for the new expansion decided to make changes to Stormwind in an effort to fit with the story they had created, thus making Stormwind the new place to be. The thing is up until Cataclysm hit PLAYERS chose these cities.

    Any kind of upgrade, in power or purely cosmetic was implemented as something for players to try and achieve. I am not suggesting that flying mounts prevented people from gathering in a hub. What they allowed was for people to idle on top of buildings, walls, cliffs outside the city, and high up in the air. This is walking through the cities the feeling of emptiness.

    The situation did not fill me with "child-like awe" because I had become one of the top tier players sitting on top of my gladiator mount on top of Stormwind's gates. (hardly visible to new players might I add.)

    WoW currently has tons of flaws, and I am not arguing that this is the sole cause for the current of that game, however it does have some negative effects which unfortunately lead to a decline in the game environment
  7. Solarthermal

    Solarthermal Cupcake

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    You guys are blaming flying mounts on decline of WoW. Is this joke?
  8. WoodGoat

    WoodGoat Cupcake

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    WoW has lots of problems that are causing its decline. WoWs implementation of flying mounts does introduce quite a few indirect problems.
  9. Solarthermal

    Solarthermal Cupcake

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  10. Ohoni

    Ohoni Cupcake-About-Town

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    I'm curious as to why they would do this? What was the advantage to them doing so, and why shouldn't they be doing this if that's what they like to do?

    Yes, obviously, but they are taking it too far. It wasn't even that funny the first time but they just keep stretching it out.
  11. Solarthermal

    Solarthermal Cupcake

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    I dont believe that WoW is declining for any other reason than age. All things in life climax and decline.
  12. Livnthedream

    Livnthedream Super Cupcake

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    LOL.

    Thats actually rather simple. The UI item is tied to an activator that makes a call to summon x graphic. The basic script takes all 5 min to write.

    Yes, cause invisible walls to fly into all over the place is super fun!

    See, that is where you are horribly mistaken. I like flight being in the game. The limited flight that they have advertised is pretty cool, assuming of course they keep it in reason. The low gravity moon stuff looks great! I care about the very negative side effects on free form fly as you want. Many of the very reasons why you want flight are the very reasons I do not want free flight in the game.

    I do not see how it deminishes fun in the least. Convience though, yeah that needs to me taken down about 3 notches.

    Why? That is why traditionally roads exist. Generally riding along those will leave you unmolested. Its when you take off cross country that you take the risk of being slowed/rooted or knocked off your mount. Risk vs reward ftw. Flying takes all of the risk out.

    Yeah, thats not a compromise. Infact I am now sure that you do not know what that word actually means.
  13. Ohoni

    Ohoni Cupcake-About-Town

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    But designing how and when those abilities can be activated, what goes into earning the item, making the landing and mounting animations, making the UI icons, testing all possible exploits, there's a lot of work that would go into making it a balanced and polished retail-ready system.

    You clearly didn't read the rest of the thread before deciding you knew everything there was to know about the system. There are far more elegant solutions than invisible walls to the problems of players going where you don't want them to go. Even the most serious "we want flight" people do not want invisible walls, and also do not want to be able to travel to locations that would break the game.

    Ok, then "I do not want free-form flight," It means the same thing as far as this thread goes. taxi flight is not some middle ground between free-form flight and no flight at all.

    You honestly don't see how it could be more fun for some people (if not yourself) to be able to fly almost anywhere they like? Flight at max level only means that you don't have flight until you get there. We have no idea how long that might take, but for many players it could be months or more. Why deprive them of all those months of fun, just o give them the tool when they're at endgame and have the least use for it? And as for landing pads, it turns it into a glorified taxi system, on rails in all but name only.

    If you don't want to fight you shouldn't have to. You might need to activate your defensive abilities to stay alive, but you should be able to pass through their agro radius easily enough. What's the point of having faster and easier travel methods if they are neither because they become pointless unless you take the long way around?

    More that I just have no interest in compromising. I don't see the point to it. Some of us want to have fun, some of you want to ruin that fun. I don't see why we should have to accept ruining it just a little bit. I'm willing to help to solve any of the objective problems that flight might cause, but the subjective ones that cannot be solved without breaking flight entirely, you're just going to have to deal with.
  14. Livnthedream

    Livnthedream Super Cupcake

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    Which is exactly the problem. This is done.
  15. jackashflash

    jackashflash Cupcake-About-Town

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    I haven't heard a decent compromise. Implementing flying badly is worse than not having it at all!

    Launch Pads - Glorified taxi service
    Fuel - Trivialized item you are forced to keep in your bag, like ammo. Only purpose it serves is wasting a slot in your bags.
    What else?
  16. Infamouz

    Infamouz Well-Known Cupcake

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    You do know that sentence of your's backfires on you majorly if you think about it more than two seconds? :p

    There are many problems with flying in MMO games. There also is alot of fun to be had with flying if it is designed proper. The way World of Warcraft as example handles flying is one of the worst ways to handle it I have ever seen.
  17. jackashflash

    jackashflash Cupcake-About-Town

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    Not really. Your opinion is merely subjective, like everyone else.

    For some having flying is fun, removing flying is ruining fun.
    For others not having flying is fun, adding it is ruing fun.

    I have never heard 1 problem with flying that wasn't subjective.
    One person's fun is another person's nightmare.
  18. Grim Fandango

    Grim Fandango Well-Known Cupcake

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    If it wasn't for the Explorer path, I'd be all for indefinite flight capabilities.

    But that one, solitary path makes it kind of crappy to have. Even if it were only limited for a short time due to fuel or the like, it would still trivialize a great many potential puzzles and vistas.

    So on one hand, I'd love it if they didn't have it at all, and instead just had some kind of gliding or jet boots ability that gave you limited mobility (and thus puzzles could be designed to incorporate that). On the other, it's kind of hard to imagine multiple races with advanced FTL technology can't tinker together some simple one-man aircraft. Especially when you have another path that's all about building stuff, and rumor of a class that basically has "builds all kinds of tech" as a synonym for its name.

    I really hope they find some kind of compromise that works that won't negatively affect the Explorers in the game. The only possible solution I can think of is some kind of monitoring code that checks to make sure you never use a flying mount while performing a puzzle or exploring some exotic locale.

    Otherwise, none of the concerns about flying mounts bother me. Least of which being PVP or taking a safe AFK.
    Neurotic Cucpake likes this.
  19. Infamouz

    Infamouz Well-Known Cupcake

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    Indeed I have never said anything different. The reason his sentence backfires is exactly the argument you just gave to me; His basically saying his fun is more important than the fun others. As fun is subjective therefore his not in a position to determine acceptance of any certain way of playing the game.

    Exactly my point. I don't quite understand tho what is your problem with my sentence. You seem to disagree with me, yet you agree with me? :p

    1. Free flying makes areas feel less populated as players have one more axis in wich they can move. This wouldn't be a problem if majority of questing gathering and leveling didn't happen on only X and Y axis.

    2. Free flying kills Word PvP as people meet less often and are able to retreat on demand always without chance to be catched. Also there is no punishment for being AFK in air. This comes with PvP servers, if you do not like world PvP there is option for it, it's called PvE server. I know revolutionary idea ain't it.

    3. It has pottential to make one of their Paths completelly obsolete, even if free flying is only available at max level. Path content is suposed to continue at max level but how do you balance exploring and it's platforming puzzles if you can just fly and be done with it?

    4. Free flying is the third easiest way for farm bots to farm resources, right after teleportation and under the world hacks. This hurts game economy.

    5. Flying makes the world feel smaller. Ever been on a airplane? World looks abit smaller right? That's due to point of view. Having bird's perspective on the world makes the world feel small and insignificant.

    6. Flying makes the population go trough the content much faster just due to the fact it's easier to travel as the bird flies. It is always slower to write a book than to read a book, if you give players tools to read the book even faster what happens when the books can be only writen so fast as there is only finite amount of good game developers and coders in the world?

    That's what I could come up with. You can decide what points are completely subjective and if there is anything objective.
  20. jackashflash

    jackashflash Cupcake-About-Town

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    I sort of agree with all of these, but all the problems are essentially rendered void by simply only allowing flying mounts after you get to max level. Which would seem like the most logical course of action, if they even implemented them.

    1. Everyone below cap will be forced on ground. That means that the only zone that might feel less crowded are the max level zones, where absolutely everyone ends up.

    2. Zone population is the same as #1. Chances are if you could retreat on a flying mount you could retreat on a ground mount.

    If I am AFK on my mount in the air, then I can't engage in PvP. You could gank me, and you might call that PvP, but I don't. I won't even kill people who are AFK on the ground. What fun is that? Doesn't mean I don't want to be on a PvP server, it just means I want the other 'P' to mean something.

    3. True. Not sure how to fix this one.

    4. Never heard of this. I was aware of the underworld hack though. You can't stop gold sellers though. They will always find a way.

    5. True. But by the time you are max level, you pretty much already seen it all.

    6. As long as it is max level, you aren't going through content faster, because you already did it. Now it might cause new content to go by faster, but they can easily make new content with flying mounts in mind.


    I could easily live without flying mounts if that is the devs decision. However, I think they would make a good addition under a couple circumstances.
    #1 Max level Required
    #2 Very high cost

    This ensures they are kind of rare, especially early. This can become a status symbol. Especially for non-raiders who can hoard their money, as opposed to dumping it on consumables and repair bills.

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