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Anyone else leary of modding?

Discussion in 'WildStar General' started by Narthen, Apr 8, 2013.

  1. Soylentgreen

    Soylentgreen Well-Known Cupcake

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    Well good to know, I didn't expect it to be that long between beta waves but it is what it is and I'm glad we know now at least.
  2. Jeremy Gaffney

    Jeremy Gaffney Carbine Studios

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    Got an office full of peeps today. Some of the guys have started organizing weekend "Game Jams" where artists, designers, and programmers get together and knock out an area or feature together for fun that might or might not actually be on the schedule.

    While all us senior management weenies were off at PAX for instance the team came in and knocked out a bunch of solo housing minidungeons (we've never announced 'em before, basically items that you can bring back to your house and unfold into a dungeon to fight stuff in, like 1-3 player content). They were falling off the schedule, so some of the folks here decided to come on in and knock as many of them out as possible to keep me from cutting them as Evil Schedule Crackdown Guy. So I and the department heads returned from PAX to find 8 brand new housing minidungeons.

    Pretty awesome actually. Today's Game Jam is on the (unannounced as far as I know) city which Malvolio runs...dunno why, the guys just felt like doing it, so that will now likely be seen as part of the CBT2 deployment.
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  3. Jeremy Gaffney

    Jeremy Gaffney Carbine Studios

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    Well to be clear, each CBT deployment we then do multiple waves of invites within the deployment. Sorry I wasn't clear.
  4. Soylentgreen

    Soylentgreen Well-Known Cupcake

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    Oh okay that is much more along the lines of what I expected, thank you for the clarification.
  5. JarNod

    JarNod WildStar Haiku Winner 2012 / Lead Guinea Pig

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    Holy <REDACTED>! That's awesome to hear. I can't wait to get ahold of it
  6. Bisqquit

    Bisqquit "That" Cupcake

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    I actually started out as a grizzled anti housing (its fluff for the casuals!) kinda guy but the more I hear and see, the more I want to get up there. Cheers.
    Maddog Charlie likes this.
  7. Jeremy Gaffney

    Jeremy Gaffney Carbine Studios

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    Clipped this up a bit for time, forgive the compressed response:

    We see the burden being on us to provide non-automatable (or very hard to automate) game designs, in part because one could strongly argue that a good game design requires you to actively play, not do an automated task.

    Specifically, I'd posit a theory that IMO holds across much of design:

    A poor design is implied if automated instruction lists end up on the web which can be trivially followed.
    A good design is implied when strategy guides appear guiding how you should react to things.

    So what's the example? Take combat. Our goal with combat is "make the players have to play the game, not the UI". We don't want something like Grid to be the standard way to play (16 pixels of the fight is visible around all the UI mods during raiding, for example).

    And don't get me wrong - Grid and UI based systems don't have to suck. They're just not our vision.

    So: in combat, making things be AOE based is good. You need to look at what's going on in the world. Automating it is hard. Lining your opponents up properly through multiplayer taunting and crowd control is interesting. Lining your buddies up for heals and buffs is interesting - especially the bad guys are laying down dynamic zones of bad stuff going on. Letting you quickly, visually communicate through telegraphs to your team/raidmates is key (having the tank run away from your heals sucks even in simple target and whackaspell MMO combat). Movement is key. It's hard to automate, it's skill based - even if you are using target lock to guarantee one target of your spell, the skill is in using your positioning to hit as many other targets as possible. And if you've gone full freeform, then your position plus the optimal positions of your targets is very interesting even in 1vN PVE combat, and super interesting in NvN PVE or PVP combat.

    Especially since the mobs disrupt trivial "get into position X and just spam spells in a certain order" by laying down their own hazards dynamically.

    In a way, all of combat was designed around combatting this issue. And don't get me wrong, some folks won't LIKE that - they didn't have a problem playing 1000's of hours of the more static based UI combat. That's cool by us - we just wanted to do it differently.

    So, our bold choice: At the moment we don't reserve "developer only" mod commands, all the interfaces you see are fully modifyable by players. We might ban some game-wrecking mods, but the mantra in general is "play the way you want to play". We'll see how it works out.

    First player-written mod happened on day 1 phase 1 of CBT by the way, in the first 100 people to log in, in the first evening the game was available. Only gonna get crazier.
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  8. JarNod

    JarNod WildStar Haiku Winner 2012 / Lead Guinea Pig

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    Wait... <REDACTED> is redacted? :O
  9. Bisqquit

    Bisqquit "That" Cupcake

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    If you're talking about <REDACTED> then yeah. Must be a slow week.
  10. iiFrank

    iiFrank Cupcake-About-Town

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    Made me.. Can I haz it!?
  11. Xryus

    Xryus Cupcake

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    My first MMO was City of Heroes. I started playing it a couple months after it came out. Since then I have played or at least tried every major MMO. I have also ben in tons of betas. In all that time I have never seen the level of developer interaction I've seen by Carbine.

    Just wanted to say thanks. Hopefully I'll be able to give something back besides just playing the game =).
  12. Drasas

    Drasas Well-Known Cupcake

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    I'm a healer. I've been a healer since EQ and frankly TERA healing doesn't interest me. I think making healing fun and dynamic doesn't require the removal of the raid frame. I'm likely in the minority of people following this game who are of this opinion, but I think you can make healing fun and challenging without turning it into a third person shooter style. If I'm reading this correctly there's going to be almost no reason to pay any attention to raid frames. While I'm sure some people are excited by this I was under the impression that traditional healing was going to be possible. Personally, I was hoping to play a healer here too, but I'd rather not play Gears of War 3: Crazy Combat Medic. Not being in beta I can't be certain of what I'm saying, but I am afraid that the traditional healer like myself wont really want to be a healer in this game if everything is based around free-form healing. It seems too similar to a Resto Shaman spamming Healing Rain and nothing else.

    This is just my opinion, but I fear I'm going to end up playing a DPS'er because healing wont appeal to me. Please tell me I'm wrong and that I'll be able to build a healer that incorporates standard target healing and free-form healing. More and more I feel like I'm being chased from the genre. There's no room for niche healers(in my case a primary tank healer) to exist anymore and it's depressing. That role which was the foundation of the raid from EQ until late-Wrath Warcraft is vanishing. Healing is my favorite role and I'd like to continue playing healers, but the future doesn't look promising to players like myself.
  13. Crow

    Crow Cupcake

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    Does this mean the UI still needs a lot of work? Or just player curiosity? :)

    Also, is there basic documentation or just trial and error?
  14. Jeremy Gaffney

    Jeremy Gaffney Carbine Studios

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    There are at the moment different single-target main tank healing/damage prevention type abilities, freeform AOE ones, ones that drop healing items onto the battlefield letting off-tanks self heal while you DPS, and many more, including specability around various ways of healing. I don't promise everything but there are a lot of options to heal the way you want to heal.

    However I will say you're pretty much gonna have to be involved in the main battle. Standing in one spot with one target and hitting a series of heal spells will rarely work in the tougher raids etc just due to the environmental hazards/boss AOE attacks, adds, etc. Minimally you have to bounce (or shield thyself, etc) out of danger, manage adds, direct your groupmates via positive spell effect telegraphs, and more.

    But I'm not a marketing guy, so I won't try to sell ya - as we polish up more raids/high level dungeons you'll see videos of it, and if you get a chance to get hands on you can call BS or not as well ;)
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  15. Exa

    Exa New Cupcake

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    Could not have said it better myself.........
    I too am for mods......... but not for people to use them maliciously. =]
  16. CRB_Gortok

    CRB_Gortok Carbine Econ Designer

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    My opinion on the OP:

    Mods have been a net positive for MMOs. The community innovation is great, and there are many mods that have become industry standard by this point. We discuss existing mods when talking about how to design marketplace, bags, banks, etc.

    That said, mods do have a few negative impacts. They do change the way the game is played. Some expose the workings of the game, to its detriment. Some automate tasks that were previously interesting. Some change game balance and give an edge.

    Most players will do whatever is optimal over what is fun. I feel that there are a few mods that came along and made the game less fun, but because they gave an edge people felt they had to use them.
    Sonntam, Kataryna, Archales and 4 others like this.
  17. Pixie

    Pixie Cupcake-About-Town

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    I must admit I had been avoiding this thread a little bit because it is such a touchy subject, the whole modding thing, and something we've been discussing a lot back and forth in our gaming community.

    But I have to say: Mind. Blown.

    I think the only expression that even begins to cover the amount of interesting news, philosophy explaination and explosive cookie crumbs in this thread would be Gaff-nanza!

    Explaination for modding approach: More than fair and acceptable, in fact, it sounds great.
    Housing mini-dungeons: Squee!
    Descriptions of healing role: Double squee!
    Carbine work ethics: Triple squee!

    I think what I'm trying to say is... Squeeee!
  18. Pixie

    Pixie Cupcake-About-Town

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    Hoookay, let's see if I can add something actually useful to this thread shall we? :whistling:

    In our community, like I mentioned, we had a discussion about this as many of us felt that modding tends to take away from certain aspects of the game, especially raiding.

    But the good thing is that communities have the ability to self-govern, and for this reason, mods that dull down fun and interesting tasks or give an edge can be unproblematic as long as you find a community that shares your opinions.

    The future guild leader for our community's Wildstar guild suggested banning certain mods within the guild, specifically during raids and other guild group content.
    Basically he's thinking about banning mods that make the interface play for you to any extent and also make quoting damage metres in guild chat or on guild websites a kick-from-group reason, with further sanctions upon repeat offences.
    He's not saying nobody should have damage metres, and we all agreed they are a useful tool for a diplomatic raid leader, who can then use the information gathered to have a one-on-one talk to someone if he/she thinks they could benefit from some pointers etc, but the gist of it is that he won't allow peer pressure to install certain mods even if they give an edge.

    And sure that may mean we won't see the topside of any raid leaderboards any time soon, but that's not my definition of fun anyways, I just want to have fun with the game content and with my guild.

    I think this is a good solution, which allows you to play the way you want to play.

    Don't like mods? Find people who share your opinion and make a guild that plays without them. That's what makes good gaming communities so powerful, they don't just create connections, they allow you to tweak the way you play the game, and share it with others. Kinda like modding ;)
  19. Zapp Brannigan

    Zapp Brannigan Cupcake-About-Town

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    Would you allow mods that change the appearance of in-game models (only to the people that have downloaded the mod)?

    I know that LoL used to allow fan-made champion skins (I'm not sure if they still do), so it's not something that would break the game (or maybe it is, what would I know). I know that you guys are under a heavy load, but something that I'd love to see is customisable spell effects (black esper abilities, for example). If those are something that can't be officially implemented, if someone were able to create a mod that allowed the customisation, it'd be nice to have, even if I were the only person able to see it.
  20. Veckna

    Veckna Well-Known Cupcake

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    Pretty much this - we've kept poor Jeremy busy :D but gotten some tantalising new tidbits of info :notworthy: .

    I now have the 'squeeee' sound in my head from some game I've played in the past or something but it's driving me nuts trying to remember where it came from. /salute to your ability to drive me mad in a single word!

    That's getting close to the area of spiked models etc that people use in fps games to gain advantage. I'd either hope they don't allow any customisation of player/objective models or at the very least have it rigidly controlled (if they're putting competitive pvp in there).
    Spell effects etc might be nice for people but again it would have to be in a manner that avoided giving the modders unfair advantages (ie making healing skills project a vertical beam to easily identify opposing healers anywhere on a PvP map would be bad :p ).

    Edit: oh damn, I sense Yakzan's OCD striking as I just realised I did the double posting thing after getting sidetracked.
    /hides.
    PS I was going to offer to polish your mod monocle by way of apology but that could probably be taken as some form of innuendo and just make things worse :( <Mod Monocle> What double-post? </Mod Monocle>

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