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Anyone hope Epic gear will be uncommon.

Discussion in 'WildStar General' started by Brisselio, Nov 14, 2013.

  1. Spracket

    Spracket Cupcake-About-Town

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    I don't remember HoR being a particularly difficult dungeon, unless you're comparing it to other LK dungeons. If anything, the mechanics in that dungeon were BC 101. It was probably such a shock to people because they actually had to whip out their CCs again. All things considered, that place was a blast; nothing special, but a breath of fresh air.

    I've personally never raided vanilla, but I don't think anybody wants the itemization to turn out anything like that. I think a lot of people see BC as the one that "did it right" when it comes to loot (with a few exceptions), but I could be wrong. If Wildstar loot rarity turns out to be similar to BC, I'll be happy.
  2. ImpactHound

    ImpactHound Cupcake-About-Town

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    While Halls of Reflection was current content, it was tuned very tightly to the gear and stats of players only doing 5-man dungeons. If you had a bunch of ICC raid gear, then sure you could cheese through the start with LOS mass pulls and hope to heal and AOE thru the 4x2 waves of ghosts, but it was very challenging and required CC and target priority otherwise. The chaotic rush thru the ice walls at the end was also tuned to be very challenging for all three roles with very little downtime to recover and took a lot of coordination. By comparison ToC was a sleepwalk with horse jousting and standing in bad stuff even when it was current.

    If you were a wrath babby, you didn't have to run Shattered Halls or Arcatraz on heroic, which would be comparable. Levelling thru BC dungeons on their normal mode shouldn't have been as challenging as the frozen halls instances.

    I did like how BC had the right feel for making every class want to run almost every heroic instance to gear for raiding, and the drop rates with one-run a day limits made it feel like that progression was paced nicely. Weapon graphics were all really nice too, although the armor designs were pretty bad overall.
  3. Spracket

    Spracket Cupcake-About-Town

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    Oh yeah, ToC was nothing, but as far as being geared to make HoR easy, I never raided ICC too diligently; I might have gotten one piece out of there for my mage. I tanked HoR in badge epics. Yeah, the dungeon was probably level with Shattered Halls/arc, but I feel like that was due to the way you accumulated gear in either expansion. All you really needed to successfully tank/heal HoR was the badge gear.

    With SH/Arc, they became much easier with the proper gear, but acquiring the proper gear was harder (or at least more time consuming). They were much more lofty dungeons because it took longer to get geared properly. Whereas with HoR, the only effort required to gear for that place was to start spamming the other, much easier heroics.

    That gear pacing in BC is mostly what made the heroics a challenge. I'd say that quite a few of the WotLK heroics were a challenge as well, at least as soon as you left the gate. But at the rate you could gear yourself, they became farmable too quickly.
  4. Lidewyn

    Lidewyn New Cupcake

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    the reason why people get upset about everyone getting epics is because epics should be earned by epic achievement. So if the solo stuff is really hard epics are fine but if they are say the first stepping stone to getting ready to raid and relatively easy then no epics should be earned. epics=epic lvl content defeated whether thats pvp content, solo content, or raid content as long as its very difficult idc
    purplestreak and Sapien like this.
  5. filanwizard

    filanwizard Cupcake-About-Town

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    The problem is stat inflation causes everybody to need epics just to do content.

    As such epic bloat is generally in my opinion a fate caused by bad game design. The fact is nobody outside of end game raiders should need epics/purples to get by any content that is itself not epic. Min/Max is another cause of it, People start shunning players without epics even if they are votekicking from their group a very competent player from an instance that does not require that level of gear anyway. But they see that player in blues causing their instance to take 12 minutes instead of 10.
  6. Jech

    Jech New Cupcake

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    I do hope that it is uncommon but my largest concern with gear is that there is a level of work you have to put in to gain it.
    To reference WoW, in vanilla most of your pre-raid gear came from running dungeons, and now you simply farm heroics for points to just buy epic pieces. This is one thing I hope carbine stays away from. Im fine with a point or badge vendor, I just dont want the best pre-raid gear to come from it.
  7. jetah

    jetah Cupcake

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    I'd love to see a MMO not use color names for quality of items. Let every item be white but the stats are vastly different. Eve Online does a great job at this!
  8. filanwizard

    filanwizard Cupcake-About-Town

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    Well I think if carbine avoids the hard lock tier system we can also help avoid epic bloat. Hard lock tier systems force people to need Tier x to proceed to Content y. As such it forces "discount epics" If you use a purely stat system like gear in Everquest you can avoid much of this because it does not matter where the stats come from, just that you have them.

    As for the mention of EVE-Online, The biggest advantage EVE holds in itemization is that while there are "named" items they do not automatically mean your ship is 100% better. It has been proven in many instances of EVE combat that fleets with all tech 1 hardware have taken down better equipped fleets. In most fantasy MMOs this kind of world is seen as unacceptable, Can you imagine the flame fest on the forums in say WoW if someone in the absolute top end arena gear could be beat by a smart group of level 50s in greens? In EVE the equal to that happens daily.
  9. Livnthedream

    Livnthedream Super Cupcake

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    To accomplish what exactly?

    If its the "kicking people who are in blues" issue, people will just find something else. Take Swtor for example, where everyone without x amount of health (since tier gear all came with tons of endurance) were kicked, even though for tier 1-1.5 crafted gear was superior for dps.

    Except there is effectively a "locked tier" system already in place as evidenced by how they have talked about the differences between 20 man and 40 man raid gear.
  10. jetah

    jetah Cupcake

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    to be different!
  11. Livnthedream

    Livnthedream Super Cupcake

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    Merely being different for the sake of being different does no good. Look at how annoying Gw2 was with switching the colors. All removing the colors in total does is make it more annoying to denote quality of the item at a glance. Which at best removes a quality of life feature for no gain.
  12. jetah

    jetah Cupcake

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    How does that quality of life work out when there are 3+ expansions? Your purples are now much worse than the new greens. If it was all one color you'd have to look at the stats better. There could be a naming convention that could denote 'power' or other factors.
    Eve Online has used white colors for over 10 years and it's working great.
  13. Livnthedream

    Livnthedream Super Cupcake

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    I would disagree with "great" and that is even considering that its an entirely different sort of game. Similarly, your example is an exceedingly poor one. "Epics" over levels are there to denote an extraordinary piece of gear for that level. Ie an epic lvl 10 item is equal to a lvl 20 green. You would have had an argument if you had argued against tier gear.

    Really, both systems work for what they are, but they both have drawbacks also. Eves system is so convoluted its easier to just plug an item into your spreadsheet to figure out whether its a bonus or not, where a color based system drills into players that purple=better even when its not itemized for them at all.

    I personally prefer color because its easier to denote at a glance if its something you should even pay attention too as greens are rarely if ever going to be better than blues unless its extremely well itemized. I don't want to have to spreadsheet every piece to figure it out. This is also why addons like RatingsBuster are so prevalent.
  14. jetah

    jetah Cupcake

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    that's what i mentioned a naming convention. WS could have a certain name for 1-10 gear another name for 11-20, etc. This would even include tiers of gear from raids. A new expansion, a new set of names. That was just an idea. not sure how well it'd work.

    Eve has the added bonus of comparing modules. So no need for a spreadsheet.
  15. Ergilion

    Ergilion Cupcake

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    My opinion since i started playing WoW in the beginning of Burning Crusade:

    "if you don't earn it, you don't deserve it"

    I think epic loot should be behind a certain barrier, be it skill or a raid spot. If I don't get a chance to get the loot, then it's my own fault for not being good enough or not getting into a guild and to killing raid bosses.

    I personally disgust the idea that you get points or currency from normal missions that you can solo or from 5 man dungeons that you can then exchange for epic level loot that other people have had to fight over for.

    Also the basic excuse "all the paying customers must have a chance to get the same items and gear that everyone else has" is total BS.
  16. gabers1

    gabers1 Cupcake-About-Town

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    I agree with this but I want to take this one step further as I find this type of statement/excuse a bit skewed and I have witnessed it used in this thread.


    We all start with the very same advantages when we purchase and download a game. We all have a choice in what class to play and have access to identical game mechanics to earn the same items/gear. Regardless of whatever excuse is used (little Johnny is not skilled enough to earn it, Johnny does not have as much time to play as others, Johnny started six month after the release, Johnny has always been spoon-fed his entire life and demands he just be given what others have earned....) I am tired of the unlimited entitlement excuses demanding the dummying down of a game so that everyone has the same gear that someone else earned or the opportunity to do end game content. We ALL have the same game mechanic potential from day one and if someone’s ability/life/job does not allow the person to achieve what others are achieving in game, well then the game will simply mimic real life where effort and skill = rewards. Perhaps this could even be a valuable real life lesson for all the spoon-fed little Johnny's of this world.

    I will now step down from my soapbox but be forewarned, this particular soapbox is always within my reach.
  17. Vivikain

    Vivikain New Cupcake

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    A bunch of us feel this way. Of course it sucks that an amazing feat was accomplished to get a person something and then another person did something much easier to get the same reward. It's weird design to allow that to happen, because the more dedicated players feel shafted. But, at the end of the day, appealing to more people and allowing more people to get more things gets a company more money. Not to say that is the end-all goal of a company, but it sure is a major one to keep a game afloat (obviously). Because of this, a game will always be catered to entitled-feeling lesser-skilled players. Personally, I'd rather see only a very select few players with amazing things (ie. WoW's Legendaries in the old days), because it really makes them stand out. There are still things like Titles, cool pets/mounts, etc. that are very limited (ie. WoW's top % arena mounts per season) and hard to get and few people have; in this regard, I think there should be rewards like that at every end. So for the explorer, if you dedicate enough time and are skilled enough, you get something. Same of other paths. Same for other playstyles. I'm sure that will come without saying, like every profession/craft to max, stuff like that. There just needs to be a very wide variety of that, and ease of access (yet difficulty to achieve each). I'm okay with some RNG and some excessive-work-required, but I'm not as okay with dual standards for getting something awesome whereby one path is much easier and catering to less dedicated people.

    TL;DR: I agree with you, but companies will always want people to play for more money. There has to be some sort of system that rewards people despite their path or playstyle, and keep that person satisfied and not wanting everything.
  18. Sfr528

    Sfr528 New Cupcake

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    Being in a guild back than that was actually trying to obtain that god forsaken thunderfury I can attest to the fact that having something be that rare is NOT fun. Farming through Molten Core for a year trying to get those stupid bindings because they refused to drop is not my idea of fun and interesting gameplay. Truthfully I don't see what is so cool about having an item in a game that is basically impossible to get no matter how much effort you put towards it. If you're putting effort towards acquiring something it should be acquirable. Complete RNG is just stupid.

    To be honest I could care less how many people have epic gear. As long as the content I care about is challenging and fun *ie RAIDS*... what do I care if someone got epic gear through other means. I guess what I would hope for is that the gear looks unique -- that is to say no one can get a piece of gear that looks like a piece of gear out of a raid without actually stepping into the raid. Same goes with any other type of content.
  19. DemosthenesHPW

    DemosthenesHPW New Cupcake

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    This about a million times over. Amusingly, in my own guild in Vanilla WoW, we were giving the Thunderfury to like Rogues (and then a Mage made one). Going for the Hammer though? Nothing... ever. We had ONE pair of priest T2 pants drop the entire time before the expansion. They were won by a priest who, within a month, switched to his Rogue as his main (and then pretty much hovered in the bottom 5 of DPS from then on).

    I have no problem with currency to get special badass items. Do I expect them to be the same ilvl as raid drops? Nope.

    I suspect, however, we will have to see SOME kind of token system. Why? Every class uses unique weapons. Some armor can probably be repeatable (ie. Cloth DPS gear), but do you know how quickly frustrating it would be to run like a Heroic 5 man with no medic and have those medic weapons drop? How frustrating it would be to see that 10 times, and still not see the weapons YOU need to drop?

    Choices by the dev seem to have already made this a necessity! *shrugs*

    To me, you're paying for enjoyment. The dev's job is to provide you with enjoyment... and in an MMO where loot is kind of a big deal... if they think having ALL of the cool loot come from 40 man raids is going to work... I suspect they're going to have problems down the line.
  20. Vivikain

    Vivikain New Cupcake

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    I didn't intend to imply the methods were ideal, but the idea of standing out is (and the exclusivity; NOT the RNG x_x). The comparison for "Old Legendaries" was to the newer ones, whereas a lot more people have them than back in the day. Players work that hard for that reward to show off and feel accomplished. If there were rewards at every spectrum in many fields, or some kind of customizable options/parts/addons for gear that could make a person stand out, it would be the same. Costumes are nice, but not as fulfilling as other things. My friend got the 'Insane in the Membrane' achievement. It's amazing, the things people will do for something as small as a title. I just wish there was more...fun to it.

    GW2 learned (or is learning?) that complete RNG for the coolest looking weapons (not best, since they're all equal in stats) was a bad idea...so they're going to add a grindy, long quest to be able to get the RNG piece. Frankly, anything that makes someone do tedious tasks for a long time to look cool is...bad design. An epic looking item should involve an epic journey; I don't mean a long, drawn-out one, but a story...an involved, thought-out process. However, games nowadays throw that to the side because it takes a long time to draw up, and decide the best course of action is tedium. It's sad, really, but the most practical. Bar content with time-consuming, boring things to do to get something really cool. I just wish the ends truly justified the means. One day...maybe. /dreamer

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