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Area Control/Denial Classes

Discussion in 'WildStar Classes & Paths' started by ruff_ethereal, Feb 24, 2013.

  1. ruff_ethereal

    ruff_ethereal Well-Known Cupcake

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    Have we seen any classes with any skills that are purely built for area control/denial? From what I've seen so far, most every skill is direct damage, or "blast." Nothing ever seems to be DoT, built on debuffing the enemy or just making their lives miserable in general.

    So, this got me thinking: what if the last two classes are the "Tactician" classes, the guys who stand to the side of the fray and have some of the biggest influence on the tide of battle? Combat Telegraphs play a big part in the game; it would make sense to have a class or two that capitalises on this system.

    So, I speculate with you today, along with the 4th races of both factions:

    The Alchemist/Biotech -- From the Exile's Fourth. Uses a variety of chemical agents and nano-bots to cause all sorts of havoc and help. Have all sorts of mad scientist gear, and tanks on their backs for their "stuff." They can spray pools of acid to slow and damage their enemies, summon a "Black Cloud," a swarm of magic/technology disrupting nanobots (a "Silence" field, if you will), and support their allies with healing goo and lifesteal for their own survival. Can either be an AoE DoT controller/denier, or a serious DoT Debuffer.

    The Engineer -- From the Dominion's Fourth. Use all sorts of traps, trinkets, and tactical deployments to supplement their own sharpshooting. (This is the non-magic rifle class.) Capable of serious area defense with turrets, herding their enemies and aiding their allies with wards and "Hostile Deterrent Fields" (read: death walls), and lay out minefields, which blow enemies sky high, among other predicaments. Can either capitalise on their AoE damage and support, or amp up their sniping and guerrilla skills.
  2. Patrician

    Patrician "That" Cupcake

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    One thing I know they want to avoid is the horrible issues crowd control can have in PvP. Nothing is less fun than having someone grabs your arms behind your back and then having their friends punch you repeatedly in the stomach. That's what a LOT of crowd control turns into in PvP.

    However I adore crowd control as well, and classes that can bring it to the table. The solution for me is to either just not make it work in PvP, or to institute types where it never disables your character so you can't do anything.

    I think there was an example in some article I read that talked about this in WildStar. The example I remember was using "disarm" as a crowd control option. If a mob or player uses a "disarm" skill, your weapon gets knocked away from you. In time, it's going to come right back to your arm because it's attached to a zip line... but if you don't want to wait, you can run TOWARDS it and pick it up sooner.

    This is a genius in that it "crowd controls" the person to either be running, or be unable to use their abilities that require having a weapon. They still have choice though, and the ability to DO something. Another example of course is things that root you which allow you to DPS the holding material so it will break and let you out.

    As long as crowd control doesn't freeze a player or prevent them from taking any action until it breaks or wears off, crowd control can be extremely fun in both PvP and PvE.

    Knockdowns should allow you to maybe roll away if you are super fast to avoid the coming attack after they knock you down. Maybe if you stun someone they can still move, as if they are 'reeling' sort of. They can't attack back but then get away from you in a drunken sort of movement. Or maybe if you stun someone they take reduced damage because you don't want to "knock them out of it."

    I don't think we know nearly enough about the unreleased classes however to speculate too much on their abilities, sadly. Though it can be fun!
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  3. Ayr

    Ayr Cupcake-About-Town

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    Without CC, PvP can turn into a wild goose chase with endlessly long fights especially if you're melee running around after healers that aren't stunnable. Open World PvP becomes useless, people can simply kite you all the way back to the base.

    If you remove CC from PvP, what are you left with I wonder? Dps spamming/heal spamming?

    Stuns/knockbacks/pulls/captures etc all work great in PvP if implemented properly. Happy to provide vids of lots of classes dueling it out through lots of CC skills and CC prevention skills and diminishing returns buffs.
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  4. Extatica

    Extatica Super Cupcake

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    Didn't they say in the stalker video that you can even use either dmg, tanking or cc spells/abilities as spells.

    Saying that they WILL have cc in there spell books with atleast some classes, also in that video you can see the stalker using atleast 1 stunn. If every class has about 1 or 2 stunns it can be enough, but we'll have to see it for ourselves in-game i guess.
  5. Ender

    Ender Well-Known Cupcake

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    There's a difference between having some CC, and being able to completely lock someone down until you kill them. Getting stunned permanently for minutes until you're dead doesn't make a game fun, especially if you have limited means of getting out of it. Which I think was Patrician's point :)

    It's not that you should completely leave out CC, just don't let people completely lock each other down, because PVP isn't exactly fun when you never get to actually play :D
  6. Ayr

    Ayr Cupcake-About-Town

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    Okay, fair enough..
    When he says, CC shouldn't be able to freeze a player in any way, he was just saying the shorthand for, shouldn't be able to freeze them for an unreasonable period of time while taking damage.. Then totally, everyone should agree, including devs. I definitely agree.

    Stunlocking is pretty much a major no no in new titles. There's so many anti-stun measures to prevent against it, but I think an excellent player should be able to stun lock a poor player - simply because the poor player hasn't learned how to counter it yet.Removing that learning curve would be a dumbing down.

    What I wonder about is why fear hasn't been dealt with the same nerf bat across the genre. Plainly it should break on damage, or have a high CD. Usually it has neither.
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  7. Ender

    Ender Well-Known Cupcake

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    Knowing Patrician, and I think I do, being married to him at all :p, yeah, I'm pretty sure that's exactly what he meant, he just phrased it a bit too extreme. CC is fine, it just shouldn't make it completely impossible to do anything against it.
    We've been playing a bit WoW lately, and the amount of CC is just extreme. It's at a point where it stops being fun, because you can't move or do anything over half of the time.
    Of course a good player should be able to use that against a poor player, but a poor player shouldn't be able to stunlock a good player to death. It shouldn't be a type of "Iwin"button.

    I agree with fear too. It should be an "Oh <REDACTED>" tactic, not an ability you can spam on people until they're dead.

    All in all, CC is fine and probably necessary for fun combat, but it should be possible to counter it. Skill should be what win you the game.

    But it sounds like we're overall in agreement :)
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  8. Ayr

    Ayr Cupcake-About-Town

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    Yes Mam we are :D
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  9. Rogosh

    Rogosh Cupcake-About-Town

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    Pretty sure I read somewhere that there is a mini game in wildstar for CC, ie if you are ccd you can do a mini game to get out of it sooner.
  10. qqmoarploxify

    qqmoarploxify Cupcake-About-Town

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    CC is great in PvP. To many games nowadays don't bother to capitalize on CC abilities. That's why resolve was added to games like WoW and SWTOR, so when you are CC'd multiple times in a row each effect after the first has less effect to a point where you are immune to CC for a short duration.

    I miss using CC in dungeons and raids to, where missing a sheep or being a second late on a stun can result in wiping entire groups.
  11. nomotog

    nomotog Cupcake-About-Town

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    I like the idea of classes based on area control, but I can't really thing of anything that the OP didn't already mention. Except maybe you could have a power that lays down a very long and narrow speed buff to aid in moving about the battle field.

    With CC, I don't like it when control is taken from me. No one likes it. I want to link to a video explaining counter play, but I won't. Basically you want to include CC that fun to have used on you.
  12. Clowne

    Clowne Cupcake

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    I think you mean when they talked about getting the "disarmed" debuff, from a disarm skill. It knocks your weapon out of your hand on an invisible tether, and if you go run over and pick it up, you're no longer disarmed. Otherwise, it comes back after ten seconds. Can't remember the source, but I know I read this.
  13. Slyndria

    Slyndria Cupcake-About-Town

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    To prevent PVP from being a Zergie mess the game needs some CC!
  14. Zel

    Zel Cupcake

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    Well I suppose with all skills having associated telegraphy, I'm sure people will learn quickly the size and shape of each classes CC and make it a priority to dodge/counter...I mean that's what the telegraph system was designed for.
  15. Patrician

    Patrician "That" Cupcake

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    Yeah what I was talking about earlier was really no WoW CC. Other games sometimes do it alright. But they still fall into that trap of giving some classes the ability to totally incapacitate you and then STILL DO DAMAGE.

    It's frustrating beyond belief. It's not fun, and there's no strategy involved. You can't escape it either usually because even if you break out of it with a trinket or long cool down ability, they or someone else hits you again with a stun of some kind that still allows them to DPS you down.

    If there's any kind of CC in the game that completely disables your character, it should also break immediately on any kind of damage.
  16. FelixAkuma

    FelixAkuma Cupcake-About-Town

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    I love both class ideas but they've said all classes will be available to both factions, and about the crowd control i've seen an Aurin Esper in a video use a skill that slams enemies into the ground? And Mike said he optimized his warrior to have all control type tactician skills like kicking enemies back or stunning them etc. so maybe every class has the option depending on what skills you choose?
  17. ObliviousPrime

    ObliviousPrime "That" Cupcake

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    I hope there is more CCs than just stuns. I head there is a daze for the spellslinger portal dash but I woul d like maybe a few more.

    I like opening an attack with a CC in GW2 but the CC there are not as annoying as the ones in SWTOR (except for the binding roots one -.-).

    So yeah CC is not just an "oh s&*(&!" button for me its an initiator and I try to use it before an enemy is doing a big attack on a allie.

    also knockdowns and knockbacks are really fun CCs. I love knocking people of cliffs :p
    I hope to knock them off warfront walls :D
  18. FelixAkuma

    FelixAkuma Cupcake-About-Town

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    Yeh it's some kind of sigil that makes them shoot forwards making them daze all enemies in their path and that skill looks awesome haha, and i've seen Esper do their big CC knockdown and Mike said about his Warrior's kick/knockback. :)
  19. Veckna

    Veckna Well-Known Cupcake

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    I thought the way taunts worked in PvP in SWTOR was very nicely done. For those not familiar tanks could taunt a player (or aoe taunt a group), those players would then deal less damage to any target but the tank.

    Similar types of 'soft cc' where it reduces a players ability to function without totally removing control is more likely to be acceptable since you no longer get the feeling of helplessness which comes with removing all control, no matter how briefly.
    For example I'm guessing people prefer to be slowed rather than rooted, be able to move but have abilities locked out rather than stunned, etc.

    CC is also great fun to use in PvE which is why I'm personally a fan of skills operating differently based on whether they hit player or mob targets. Using the above examples a 5 secong root in PvE becomes a 5 second 80% slow in PvP (probably just as deadly but at least allows the other player some ability to act).

    Just my thoughts in any case - at the end of the day I'll roll with whatever system is in place.
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  20. Loveless

    Loveless Cupcake

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    I'm definitely anxious to see the early cc 'artists'. The excitement of going up against a player that can control combat like that is such a rush. Of course, providing players with slippery healers who just won't be pure dps'd down is sort of my thing. Granting enemies temporary flight from cliffs and walls does sound fun though, too. As long as you must go into PVP with the knowledge that players are going to be much more challenging than (most) mobs, I'll be satisfied.

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