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Armour Weight and Stats

Discussion in 'WildStar Classes & Paths' started by NabeShogun, Nov 9, 2013.

  1. NabeShogun

    NabeShogun Cupcake

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    So something that came up in the livestream was that as a tradeoff for the higher mitigation of heavier armours, they come with less stat gains.

    Now I'm pretty down with carbine so I'm sure this'll all work out but it still got me worried.

    Generally I think of the tradeoff of being range ... the closer you are the heavier the armour you need (but not exactly this because you get evade tanks in games and whatnot).

    But it sort of made me feel if this was done simply then a warrior/engineers dps would never be as good as a spellslingers/espers (which'd suck if your guild already had tank spots filled but didn't want any heavy dps as it'd be less useful - though I get this is unlikely and the kind of raids carbine will be developing will prob require lots of flexibility).

    But also (and more importantly for me) a medic healer might not be as appreciated as an esper/spellslinger (med vs light).

    I do understand it comes down to how good of a player you are and so generally any class should be able to be MH or MT or whatever and that's why the different ways the classes heal/tank should be on par ... but that say a medic if played perfectly might not be able to be as good purely due to heavier armour makes me apprehensive.

    Again, like I said at the start though everything carbine has done so far I have an uncharacteristic faith in them, but still I'd love it if one of the devs would elaborate on the balancing of armours and whatnot that was mentioned in the stream ..........
  2. Nadili

    Nadili New Cupcake

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    If balanced right every class will bring something to raid it could be in the forms of buffage too having a warrior. I could see a dps warrior giving mitigation buffs to the raid, blocking dmg for the squishies ect.
  3. Tribe

    Tribe Well-Known Cupcake

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    You have a valid point. I would encourage you to state this concern in the WildStar Official Livestream - First Class and New Build Stream thread, if it has not already been raised there. The Devs do check WSC, and will likely be checking that thread throughout the week for feedback.

    There is an ability, mentioned in the stream, that allows a warrior to reduce their own armor and grant the ammount as bonus armor to another player.
  4. NabeShogun

    NabeShogun Cupcake

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    Well then he might not be doing his job properly ... but I do see the potential for lots of off-spec kind of niche builds for situations that require them ... but if you're straight up deeps might be wasting some of your action set/resources on half-assedly contributing to things outside of your role whilst neglecting what you're supposed to be doing ...

    I get your point and am totally trusting in Carbine and I'm sure we'll see people running all kinds of cool builds after speccing into the hybrid trees ... but this sort of doesn't have a lot to do with my topic of armour types possibly making you unfavourable with min/maxers ...

    Not a lot going on in that thread to be honest ... I've seen the devs post all over and so will presume if it's something they want to comment on they might do so here (the devs are listening - said in a creepy voice), and if not I'll wait to see how things pan out in game (I'd imagine if there was some sort of problem endgame it'd be fixed in balance tweeks). To be honest I'm entirely sure this came up on day 3 of class design and it's all been balanced out, just want an elaboration on what was said.

    I remember seeing that too was it the stream or was it the Q&A, it's all gotten merged in my head ... I wonder how that'll scale (if at all) with stats ... and so might be more in the wheelhouse of someone geared for support ...

    The three main tiers of the sextant AMP thing actually made me wonder if we'll see a big rise in support roles - I don't mean healers but people gearing up specifically for buffs/debuffs etc in some of the larger grouped content (prob not much room for it in a 5 man where you're down to 3 deeps anyway). But this is a discussion for a different place.
  5. Tribe

    Tribe Well-Known Cupcake

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    Ask me in a few days, or watch the other thread. I'll probably upload my notes on the livestream there on 11-10 or 11-11. Twitch has been screwy for me today, so I've yet to rewatch the stream.
  6. Wildebeest

    Wildebeest Cupcake

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    Typically with trade offs of this kind in a game, the reduced stat accruement is offset by spell and ability modifiers and scaling in order to create similar levels of damage. This is achieved with the glass cannon types (spellslinger and esper) doing medium damage constantly while the lower stat/high durability classes (warrior and engineer) tend to do have nuking type abilities. This was evidenced today even when they explained the warrior ability which doubled dmg on knockdown opponents; these types of spell and ability differences tend to even out DPS tables.
  7. Argonic

    Argonic New Cupcake

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    The same question you talked about he said that it's made up in the warriors stance. The warriors offensive stance increases dmg but reduces their mitigation to make up for the stat difference.
  8. Borz

    Borz Cupcake-About-Town

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    That is terribly bad way to 'balance' class output. Buffs and whatnot might make one or two members of given class somewhat wanted, if they spec for utility instead for their role. Still problem that class can't reach same output as others, still problem that you absolutely do not want more than 2 guys (out of 40) playing that class providing buffs.

    That is more of PvP case. You are melee, so in middle of enemy group, likely to be focused and nuked, have to be somewhat resistant. That one is "constant", unchanging from game to game. For PvE, it depends on how much of outgoing damage there is in proximity of boss and at range, and how avoidable it is. Sometimes range gets balanced by giving survivability to melee and bunch of unavoidable AoE close to boss, and avoidavle ones at proximity, thus forcing ranged to stay at range(because they can't survive melee) and making them dance ranged dance, thus lowering their uptime on boss.

    WS might have plenty of damage everywhere, making armor relevant regardless of range. Real question here would be, like everywhere, details. How big difference in stats comes from armor, both damage/healing and reduction. Possibly also how armor affects shields(since everyone has access to same shields). With bunch of unavoidable(without sacrificing player output) damage, armored players can be significantly easier to keep alive. Maybe even to the extent where one of your healers can change to hybrid or even full dps, and compensate for lowered output of people he does not have to heal.
    Or not. I guess it's too early to get too worried about it. Rising concerns, yep, we should point out our worries. Getting into heated argument and burning towns to get Carbine attention, meh, too soon for that.
  9. Pmizzrym

    Pmizzrym Cupcake-About-Town

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    It means dps Warriors should be wearing Stalker armour.

    Deal with it
  10. NabeShogun

    NabeShogun Cupcake

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    Yes stances do change things up, but even in dps stance you're going to have more mitigation than someone in cloth armour, I can't imagine it reduces your armour that severely (but then I may be wrong as I have no numbers to back it up).

    Although you can wear any armour type aesthetically, I'm pretty sure you can't wear medium armour for the stats as a heavy armour user (and even if you could it'd probably be unbalanced), so what you've stated is unrealistic. Deal with it.


    Like I said (probably at least twice) I'm sure carbine has sorted this out perfectly ... it's just the way it was briefly mentioned in the livestream that left me slightly dubious, and hence why I'd love for someone who actually knows (eg a dev) to elaborate briefly ... not ready to burn carbine to the ground, nor can I see much of a "heated argument" happening, unlike the last time I checked the post about PvP amps, ha.
  11. Pmizzrym

    Pmizzrym Cupcake-About-Town

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    Lol nice basis of reasoning.

    It will be doable, and it's already been implied if you could actually communicate information liek an adult.
  12. Isgu

    Isgu Cupcake-About-Town

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    This is more or less why I submitted the question.
    A lot has been said about the armor not being tiered anymore and we all know that in a lot of other games the armor does not do much for your survivability, or the difference between armors is too small so I hoped Wildstar will make a change here and have it actually count.
    Now I get the concerns and I share them. In current mmos most of the time the armor won't help you at all, so them giving light armor more dps stats seems like a quick way of making espers/spellslingers top the dps meters without giving the heavies anything in return. Also what does this mean for PVP?

    Anyway I gave this some though and this is what I came up with:
    1) We are used to boss aoe mechanic meaning more or less instant death, heavy or light armor, doesn't matter, in Wildstar there seems to be a lot more telegraphs(aoe) than other games so I don't think for the sake of balancing encounters they can afford making them all raid wipe mechanics. So perhaps the armor will enable you to take a couple hits more while remaining in position and retaining your dps while the light armor classes will have to move (yes, they are ranged so that makes it easier but still).
    2) They said the stance balances it out a bit - we do not know what's the trade off for swapping stances so it very well could be that swapping stances as a heavy armor brings you down to the armor and attack/support power of a light armored class ?
    3) Perhaps all classes have stances tha function in a similar way?
    4) Endgame is a whole other beast - this might be just something to make lvling more unique per class and they have a way tof handling endgame gear already in place.

    Either way I trust that the devs thought about this and have a solution already but I would still love to know what it is :p
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  13. NabeShogun

    NabeShogun Cupcake

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    Firstly adults can spell, secondly they generally don't use statements like "Deal with it" unless quoting silly little petulant children. Thirdly, as I already said you can only equip other armour types aesthetically (this means visually, not for stats) so if it was suddenly changed then it'd probably be hard to balance ...

    Oh and here's a dev post to relieve you of your clearly deep set ignorance.

    The important part being, "that you can only equip your actual armor type on your character"... but I shan't waste any more time on you.

    Lots of good points here. Sometimes you'll have to eat an attack but I'd imagine if you're playing well then hopefully once you become familiar with the encounters then you might be able to dodge/avoid most of the telegraphed stuff (as a non-tank), so then how much does mitigation matter over the reduced deeps/heals. But you have a good point about any time spent dodging isn't time spent deepsing.

    True without all the numbers and really being more familiar with the game this is all speculation, just really wanted some reassurance ... I mean although I already have a decent idea of what I'm rolling it could all change once I get to play the classes and get a feel for them, so really it's not t-h-a-t important.

    I remember them saying something about stances in general, not just for the warrior, but can't recall exactly to quote it.

    Yeah endgame is pretty much all I care about in terms of balancing ...

    Basically exactly this... "Either way I trust that the devs thought about this and have a solution already but I would still love to know what it is ".
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  14. Isgu

    Isgu Cupcake-About-Town

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    Yup, exactly, perhaps something for next weeks AMA..
  15. Pmizzrym

    Pmizzrym Cupcake-About-Town

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    This is your evidence? "The plan™"? It is specifically left open to interpretation. That content change was months ago, and we just hear from them heavy armour will not provide maximum assault power.

    How is it far fetched to think Medium Stalker Armour with lots of brutaity won't be appelaing to DPS warriors. You don't know how mitigation works, or shields. It could gimp them in PvP to an extreme measure, meaning they'd only use it in PvE raid encounters to maximize damage

    And what about Medics using light armour with better healing stats, would that be far fetched too.

    More customization is better, and being able to wear descending armour types for beneficial stats is a good thing.



    You talk really highly yet you interpret one quote as fact, a quote that was made in September.

    Especially after what we just hear about heavy armour naturally having less assault power.
  16. Isgu

    Isgu Cupcake-About-Town

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    There are plenty other ways to balance this at endgame. Allowing classes to wear armor types different from the ones meant for their class will effectively make some armor obsolete. Also I recall it was said you gain more assault/support power through your main stat than through other stats, so a warrior swapping his heavy armor for a stalkers medium wont give him more ap unless the values are crazy and I do not believe they will be.

    I seriously doubt that they would even decide to do such a thing (more assault power/support power on lighter armor gear) if it would create huge balancing issues in raiding. They did come out saying that they are focusing on making the raiding aspect properly unlike a lot of other recently released mmos so lets just wait and see what they have to say instead of making this an argument?
  17. CRB_J-Tal

    CRB_J-Tal Carbine Studios

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    Heavy Armor doesn't inherently have less stats. Heavy Armor Classes gain inherently less Assault Power from primary stats. A very subtle yet important difference.
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  18. Soylentgreen

    Soylentgreen Well-Known Cupcake

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    I think most of us realize this but I am afraid that espers and spellslingers will be the DPS to bring since you will have to tune the encounters to be survivable for all armor types anyway.

    A skilled player who can avoid unneccessary damage will want to do more DPS rather than have higher armor. Add this to the fact that ranged classes traditionally have had an easier time avoiding damage and maintaining DPS uptimes especially in a game with many abilities that can be used while moving.

    Edit: Not to mention by making them gain less assault power from stats it would seem that you will be creating a scaling issue that will exasperate this problem as gear improves.
  19. NabeShogun

    NabeShogun Cupcake

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    Ooooh, I see, guess I didn't quite remember the exact wording of it by the time I'd finished the stream and let it sink in ...

    Any chance you care to comment on how this affects min/maxing of different classes, in addition, is it correct that this is also true for support power (and if so how does this trade off amongst healing classes, "presuming" there may be some sort of non-light armour healing class).


    Edit: Just refound the bit in the stream (55:45ish) and yeah he does say it's true for support power too (so at least I can trust my memory on that account) ... so I'd like to know how the medium vs light healer balance is struck.
  20. Isgu

    Isgu Cupcake-About-Town

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    Indeed it is, thanks for hopping in and clarifying, did not understand that from the stream.

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