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Carbine's 'Hardcore' attitude...

Discussion in 'WildStar General' started by Cesmode, Sep 20, 2013.

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  1. Cesmode

    Cesmode Cupcake-About-Town

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    Hi,
    **warning, epic wall of text**

    So originally I was not interested in Wildstar at all, so I havent been following it as much as most of you until recently. The fact that dungeons seem to be difficult, raids will be difficult, housing will be in the game, as well as a plethora of other things...I am now really stoked about the game. I am trying to play catchup with all of the features and promises, and the general attitude of the developing team.

    One thing is irking me, however. I understand that this game is going to be geared toward a more hardcore crowd. Yes, there will be things for the casual, but even in some interviews they said that the game really takes off at max level and they really want to focus on max level because thats what keeps players around the longest and thats what keeps a game going. I understand that and I am happy that finally a dev publically acknowledges that we will burn through content faster than a wild fire.

    However...

    I get the feeling that Carbine is gearing the game too much toward the hardcore crowd. I keep hearing them publically say "If you can't spend the time to find a group, you wont do the content. Its that simple". Or, more generally, they seem not to care if the endgame content will be too difficult for the average bear / they wont be nerfing. Or their desire for 40 man raids to be the 'end all be all'. If your guild isnt large enough or does not have the discipline, you are not hardcore enough to run the most difficult content in the game. I guess I am just worried that they want to go back to Vanilla-WoW mmo style so badly, they are willing to segregate the playerbase so much and willing to alienate the casuals so much that they just dont care. Im worried that even if 30 or 40% of the playerbase says "listen, this 40 man raiding thing isnt working...", that Carbine will say "Tough. Deal with it. Cant take the heat, get out of the kitchen". Or, "We wont be nerfing anything...if the 5 man is too difficult, dont run it".

    I fear they are not listening or will not listen to reason. Im not specifically talking about 40 man raiding, but its an example.

    Anyone understand what Im trying to say? I know they want to run with the big boys here, but WoW has 8+ years on them and the 8million subscribers to cushion their decision making. Part of that playerbase is a die-hard percentage that wont ever leave WoW. Wildstar is in its infancy and still needs to build its reputation and its playerbase. Im not sure being hard-nosed on certain issues and flat out saying "If you suck, just run the content", is going to win them any points especially when they are going to need all the players they can get.

    This all being said, Im all for very difficult content, some content being exclusive to skilled players and guilds. I just hope Carbine goes into this journey with an open mind, and not a stalin-esq way of thinking.
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  2. Infamouz

    Infamouz Well-Known Cupcake

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    I-WANT-NOW-NOT-A-MOMENT-LATER-AND-WITHOUT-ANY-EFFORT.

    More serious note; There has been alot of discussion on these forums how exclusivity can actually help the game as a whole, and how sometimes what people want and what people need can be mutually exclusive.

    I can't arse to put too much work in to this thread, seen the same discussion too many times.
  3. Zybak

    Zybak Cupcake-About-Town

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    I think it's a smart decision for them to make the current game content difficult. Raids will get easier and easier as patches go by and eventually there will be a Karazhan easy mode raid for everyone to do (even though Karazhan was pretty tough at the start of BC). EVERY MMORPG is super carebear now and has no real difficult/meaningful content. Everyone has the same gear, looks the same, and everything you do in the game is trivial.

    Wildstar is smart for trying to be different from the rest of the crowd. There's a million easy MMO's out there and zero MMOs that make you feel awesome for being a good player.

    I'm a bit worried about 40 man raiding though (I think most people are too) but we'll just have to see how it plays out. I think it would be smart for them to have the bosses be a bit easier at the start of the 40 mans and let people ease into them a bit. 40 mans will probably fail if everyone gets smacked down on the first boss relentlessly. The biggest thing for 40 mans is that they actually need to MAKE THE GEAR STATISTICALLY BETTER (even slightly) and DIFFERENT from every other piece of gear in the game. Nobody will want to organize a 40 man to get the same stats and skins that you can from something far easier.

    TLDR: Hardcore is good because it sets them apart from the competition. There's a million carebear MMO's out there.
  4. Cesmode

    Cesmode Cupcake-About-Town

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    Well, Im not saying make content trivially easy, or hand over epic loot. But if 90% of playerbase cannot complete a 5 man dungeon, you might need to re-tune it a bit. Thats not a sign of weakness, its a sign that you are trying to retain player concurrency which is essentially especially for a subscription game.

    I think there is a difference between content that is achievable through teamwork and skill vs content that is achievable for a small percentage of playerbase. I think there is a difference between re-tuning content to allow more people to experience it vs making content too easily accessible.

    There is a middle ground somewhere to be had. I hope they are not going to be hard-nosed about this.
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  5. Cesmode

    Cesmode Cupcake-About-Town

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    I agree to an extent, which is what initially attracted me here. Finally an MMO that wont have push over dungeons and what looks to be unique boss mechanics. But I hope they dont take this mentality too far. You can still have difficult content that is 'completable' by a good portion of people.

    Concerning 40 mans and 20 mans...they could and should create the raid maps with both sizes in mind, scale down the amount of adds or whatnot for 20 man but DO NOT make it pushover content. Allow the 40 man content to drop gear that is a percentage better than 20 man.

    If I find a group of people that I like to play with, and we have enough only for 20 mans, I don't want to miss out on the 40 man content. Gating content behind a raid size is silly to me.
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  6. Xlugon Pyro

    Xlugon Pyro Super Cupcake

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    I have opposite concerns really, but it's obvious that Carbine needs to find the balance between exclusivity and accessibility. It's not good for the game if end-game content is cleared so quickly so soon after the game launches. I almost want Carbine to make some of the biggest fights unbeatable only to nerf them later a month or two down the line.

    I understand dungeons to be a stepping stone into raids which I hope is the case with WS.
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  7. AusterlitZ

    AusterlitZ Well-Known Cupcake

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    Set the bar high,and everyone will try to reach it.Set the bar low,and those that want more will leave your game in disappointment.
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  8. Zinn

    Zinn Cupcake-About-Town

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    I like what Jeremey Gaffney said when he said there are lots of easy games out there for people that want easy but he wants to give players who do not want easy something to play. He is right every game is super easy and made so everyone wins. Tuned for the lowest skill level. I love Wildstars philosophy where they say they want to help and teach players to become better players from the early levels on.

    There will be content for casuals and non competitive guilds but they want it to still be hard and push them to become better. But there will actually be content for competitive guilds that will push them as well. Carbine has said they understand when you stop making difficult content the hardcore players and guilds leave and then when they leave everyone else follows because the endgame content is perceived to be to easy. People need super hard content and benefit by it even if it is unobtainable to them. That is part of the Carbine philosophy.

    My bet is the 40 man content will be tuned for the hardcore guilds as the hardcore guilds will not have the organizational or recruiting problems of the casual guilds while the 20 man will be tuned more for the non-competitive guilds. But like all other games as time passes raids will become more accessible to the casual due to better gear, better knowledge and nerfs.

    I am excited by Wildstar mainly because of its emphasis on difficulty and catering towards the hardcore when all other developers seem to be fighting to see who can make the easiest game possible. Carbines attitude is very refreshing and it gives hardcore and veteran players and guilds hope that there may finally be a game made for us.
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  9. Kataryna

    Kataryna Super Cupcake

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    I know of many many players that WANT their 5 mans hard - they want the danger and the possibility of actually dying instead of rofl-stomping the stuffing out of the mobs! I personally want the difficulty of the Master Mode Dungeons that Rift introduced - the first one we spent 6 full hours (2 of them on the last boss!) bashing our heads against before we beat it the first time. the second time we went in, we thought it'd be a cake walk 'cause we'd done it before - NOPE it was the same bashing of heads! we actually quit after 4 hrs the second time because people had to work the next day! We knew it was beatable, but also knew it was fricken hard to actually beat and you HAD to be on point to get it done right!

    40 mans need to be hard - they ARE the end all be all of the raids. There will be 20 man raids as well (separate instance from 40mans, not the same content! YAY!) that will give you a step up to the 40 mans.
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  10. Malorak

    Malorak Cupcake-About-Town

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    First of all: That isn't a wall of text, that's maybe a small fence. And that's stretching it.


    Then: Stop. Seriously. Raiding will be exclusive to people who want to have a hardcore raiding experience. There's more than enough other content in the game. Raiding is the exclusive end of it, while the rest isn't just buildup as in WoW these days (srsly 100% of the content is either pointless or just makes you raid-ready.)

    If you don't like that...Get out. As in, outside of Wildstar and onto the fansites, search for some people. There's 20 man raids aswell, so numbers shouldn't be that big of a problem. Just join a guild that raids occasionally, seriously. It's not that hard to gather 20-40 people, even if you like to think that. There's forums and more stuff, I bet there's a place for you too.

    Also:
    This is true. Look those topics up.
  11. Grytswyrm

    Grytswyrm Cupcake

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    If 90% of the community can't do a 5 man, then that is completely fine and it doesn't need to be nerfed. There can be other 5 mans that a higher % can do. I HOPE there's some 5 mans that are actually hard, they don't all need to be the same difficulty.
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  12. Grim Fandango

    Grim Fandango Well-Known Cupcake

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    There's a reason 40-man raiding died. It had nothing to do with difficulty, either. It's just disappointing that Carbine (and a few of the "I'm a hardcore player, for real! Even though I'm not and everyone knows it, including myself, but I refuse to acknowledge it because this is the Internet and lying about things to make your ego feel better is what it's all about, right?" players) is viewing the past with rose-tinted glasses rather than seeing the hard truths about why it failed and will fail again.

    It's even worse with WildStar simply because of their emphasis on telegraphs. I mean, it was bad enough with 40 people destroying video cards with their spell effects, but combining that with telegraphs, most of which you have to know to avoid or run to and distinguish the colors despite them all being a giant blob... <shrugs> And that's not even the reason why 40-mans went the way of the dodo, just a relatively minor annoyance.
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  13. Usk

    Usk New Cupcake

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    As everyone said there's a lot of easy games out there. I got interested on Wildstar mainly becouse they are trying to make a real challlenge for the player.

    In everything, if something it's easy, the reward worths nothing. The epicness on the items/achievements/titlles/mount etc, relies on the difficuly. If everyone has something then why bother on having that too?
  14. Malorak

    Malorak Cupcake-About-Town

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    Maybe, just maybe, Wildstar will just win at 40 mans and make them work.
    I still want to see it with my own two eyes how this all will work, be hard (as in complexity, not numbers.) AND fun at the same time.

    I still have hope into this working. I think I'm being too optimistic, but I gotta say - 25 man raiding works like a charm, why shouldn't 40 man raiding work, too? With a good dev team behind it this can work out. I want to believe that.

    This btw. comes from someone who never did 40 man raids, so I'm not nostalgic...Just curious as to how this could work in a modern MMO.

    €: Do take this with a grain of salt - I maybe hyped for W*, but I'm still no INSTABUY LOLOL person who will just buy this game because of promises. I'll look into the game and if it succeeds in doing what it promised, I'll buy the everliving <REDACTED> out of it.
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  15. Crunch

    Crunch New Cupcake

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    One thing that hasn't been mentioned yet (in this thread) is that, in addition to (hardcore?) group content - like 5mans and 20/40man raids, there will also be loads of easier single player content. They have stated that there will be progression single player content at elder game both at launch and with every patch. Gaffney has emphasized this fact, and argued that lots of single player content is needed at elder game because something like 65% of the player base does no group content.

    OP: Does this answer your worry that W* is going too hardcore?
  16. CRB_J-Tal

    CRB_J-Tal Carbine Studios

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  17. BonusStage

    BonusStage Well-Known Cupcake

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    They are gunning for the hardcore market that got left out in the cold by the new aproach of ''lets make our audicence wider by making content more acessible''

    The market is there, everyone else is gunning for casuals/avarage gamer.

    Also the hardcore comunity is one big vocal crowd that makes people from the other spheres wondering about what's so great about that game they love so much.
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  18. BlindSear

    BlindSear Super Cupcake

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    To the OP:

    So... this is only a problem IF there's no other content for those players that can't hack it. Honestly, does anyone LIKE having to do attendance rules in a raid? Or would you simply like to have players that are already motivated to get it done? Is it "really fun" to have to do flask checks? Is it a good memory to have that guy that you're carrying through the raid?

    I'd say what they're doing is making the raiding for the hardcore, which is good. That's what the content works best with. Since "casuals" don't have enough time as is, why should the only content be something that takes a lot of dedicated time and dedication to be successful? Why not have content which is for those with less time or skill?

    I think making everything accessible is a terrible idea, players should have to work to get content done, and if they can't get it done, they should have other content to do. Which, judging by what's been said thus far, it really doesn't matter that "everyone" can't raid or do warplots, because they have other content to do. Do they "deserve" to see the raid content, simply because they're paying for the game? Nope... Again, as long as they're playing and having fun, it doesn't matter if they can't do ALL the things.

    I think keeping certain content exclusive is good for the health of the community. I think that players who are bad at the game, or don't have much time, won't be getting to max level til months down the line anyway. So, cater to the hardcore and the rest will follow. If we assume 150 hours of levelling content, and the "average" playtime of a casual player is 10-20 hours a week, that's 2-3 months before they're max level anyway, and how much longer before they're geared?

    Don't forget at max level players can do adventures, dungeons, battlegrounds, arenas, solo elder game, crafting (which will be a thing), Open world PVP, raiding and warplots. Possibly other stuff which they haven't mentioned. If players are going to complain "Raiding's too hard" but can't find something they enjoy, then they're not good for the community anyway.

    In addition they mentioned unlimited raid cap weekends, where you can take in 200 players+ into raids. This is an effective nerf, because you can take all those people who have begged to get into raiding but just aren't good, or don't have time to progress, and zerg down the raid instead. I think this is much more compelling, because, you will end up with like 160 players dead in the raid, but then the core 40 simply kill the boss like they usually do. This allows the extra players the full experience of the boss even if they lack the skill. This also allows players to actually practice the actual boss mechanics to its fullest, and not do a pseudo practice like in LFR. It also allows for tryouts for a guild be quick and easy, because you can just take a crapload at once and try them all out, the best ones shine and make the group, the bad ones get benched.

    TLDR; There's a crapload of content, raiding or pvp isn't the only 2 options for max level in WS.
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  19. Chrilin

    Chrilin Cupcake-About-Town

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    To the OP.... This part of your argument got you in trouble. The problem lies within the definition of "hardcore" and "casual".

    I will use myself as an example.... I am successful raider. I am a good player and a min/maxer. I learn my class and always try to improve. I raid 6 hours a week. Am I "hardcore" or "casual"? I used to do the same thing but I raided 12 hours a week. Was I "hardcore" or "casual" then? The point is everyone has their own definition.

    Don't worry....

    There are some folks that are determined that WildStar is going to only cater to the most "hardcore" of players. They cherry pick comments to validate their desire for the game's direction. My opinion lies in-between. Is the group content going to be hard? Yes. Will you be able to play solo? Yes. Will you get the best stuff from sitting at the AH? No.

    All in all I have faith that WildStar will be my new home at release. So do most folks around here. Time will tell but, stick around. Not every topic is a hot button one like this one.:)
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  20. FlamingRuby

    FlamingRuby Cupcake-About-Town

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    I really don't think they have hardcore attitude at all.

    All i see from Carbine is a really nice approach on MMORPG scene.
    What i mean is that they totally understand that they have to respect every player.They understand that out there there are casual players that don't like to commit on raiding and this is why they are offering to them solo content,story driven end game and challenging dungeons.That to me is a nice approach.Casuals are not idiots.Actually are people that want a challenge but with no commitment on schedules and staff.

    Now for 40 man raids they are thinking and i totally agree with them that people want back epic driven fights.And they are right.Killing a boss with 10 people has not the same feeling as killing the boss with 40 people.People actually doing the mistake and thinking that 40 man raids are going to fail because its harder to organize and its hard to find people to do them.
    Despite the fact that this is not true and if you are a well organised guild you will have the right people to do the job i think that it is up to the community to accept their challenge.They are offering the tools to victory its now up to us to take the challenge.

    I am not gonna lie.We are living in the period of MMORPG taking care of lazy people and NOT casuals.They want everyone to have everything with no effort.This game is gonna offer a lot of staff and it is up to every single player to take the chance and do everything or what ever he/she likes.

    Blizzard denied 40man raids not because those raids failed in the heart of people.But because they though that by lowering the number of people needed and the difficulty of the content it was gonna be better.The decline of all that started in late TBC with epics given easily with justice and then with Wrath when everything was a trash festival.Sure there were some hard raids but the nerfs were instant.
    Also there is a reason why you dont see people want to raid any more and Blizzard F.E made Flexible raids.There are not so many big guilds left and if left they are now 10 man raiding.So people are not motivated any more.People dont care who killed the X boss on Siege of Orgrimmar because in the first week they are yet on 11/14 and they moving close to 14/14.First week.First week Normal content died and first week of heroic its allready 11/14 by all hardcore guilds and moving forward to 14/14.Remember how much Kael or Vash was alive?Months.....

    Its up to Carbine to really prove that 40 man raids are not a memory but actually a challenge!
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