Discussion in 'WildStar General' started by Cesmode, Sep 20, 2013.
Ok, sorry, so there's actually MORE than I originally stated... lol, you get the picture.
i only use 1% as like a way to further my point not to say that only 1% will make it or anything. it could be only 20% do it .
hard but not impossible is the way to be . like most of vanilla with the hardest being like cthun or something.
i dont want naxx hard or tbc swp kael and lady raid hard. but i do want it to be challenging but doable. but i dont want something like loot reaver ya know?
Casual players need to go play casual games. People who enjoy soloing need to go play skyrim. We shouldn't have to spell out the definition of a MMO to solo players and casual players.
MMO MASSIVE MULTIPLAYER ONLINE now look at this please tell me where the <REDACTED> you see casual or single player friendly?
MMO"s IMO are about forced interaction personally I think that is the core of a good MMO.I honestly think if you are a casual player or a solo player you have no business playing a MMO and devs should never ever cater to you because it takes away from people who actually like to play MMOs.
but they ARE adding content for EVERYONE. the simple fact is it is going to be easier to group to get quests done but its not going to be required for those who are socially challenged.
and the bottom line is more people playing , including those who solo , means more money to go to content for EVERYONE. including you and your group content.
Adding a LOT of content for both sides - that and no different is how an MMO should be.
It should strive to give people who seek the hardest challenges an adventure that is so hard...And so epic, that the whole planet might aswell explode in how crazy all of this is.
It should also give the time limited a place to have fun - but still challenge them. Not as huge or ridiculous as the raids and hardcore power dungeons of doom, but still content worth of being called amazing!
If a game does this...It won. It just did.
In a perfect world everyone would have the same playstyle and enjoy the same activities and MMO developers could focus more on a narrow scope of play. But that is not realistic or the case. There are lots of people who play MMOs for different reasons and who enjoy different content. Carbine plans to offer content for everyone and cater to the hardcore, casual, PvP player, Raider, group player and solo player.
While I am most excited about difficult and challenging raid content I hope the game offers quality good content for players who enjoy different areas than I do. If WS is going to succeed and retain players it will have to make everyone happy not just me or you. The reality is for a AAA MMO to succeed it has to appeal to a broad playerbase. I may not agree or like other playstyles but I respect those players and their opinions. I may believe that the players that demand games be made be easy then gamehop to another are ruining and killing MMOs but I do believe they have a place in WS. I have hope in Carbines philosophy that many of these players can be taught to become better players and I hope that these players will begin to appreciate a game like WS that will (hopefully) bring back risk and reward and require players to earn their rewards.
Although I do share your concern that many players will attempt to dumb down Wildstar and compromise the vision of the developers. It has happened in many games. There is not much I can say here to alleviate those concerns as I am just as paranoid of this happening as the next person. But we cannot do anything about it other than to trust (with an open eye) Carbine to do the right thing. But regardless, I don't think its appropriate to tell these players to find another game even if that is what hardcore players have been told in all recent MMOs. There is room for everyone and there is no reason to insult other players because one does not like their play style. I don't regret or begrudge content being made for other players I am just so so happy there is a MMO being developed with a focus on difficult and challenging gameplay. I feel so lucky that Wildstar is being made. It is the only hope I see for the type of content and playstyle I want. I don't think I am alone in believing that WS is the hope and savior for veteran old school MMO players.
You do know that if MMOs were only played by hardcores, they'd drive every developer that made one into bankruptcy in a matter of minutes, right?
A number Gaffney has thrown around is something like 65% of MMO players never do any group content. Those people are keeping MMOs in business, not hardcores. Casuals who play a few hours a week, while paying the same $15 a month as the 40 hour a week hardcore are also doing a lot more to keep MMOs in business than hardcores. Hardcores do generate a lot of buzz and keep a lot of community resources running, but they don't pay the bills.
While some of the devs at Carbine like to pay lip service to hardcores, they all know full well that without the casuals, they'd be screwed. That's why they're putting so much content that's casual friendly.
First, if there is a situation where 95% of the population cannot complete a dungeon, they will probably adjust things a bit. This topic doesn't have to be this polorized. It's not like they are just throwing as much hard stuff at us as they can without balancing it. They are still going to be balancing encounters, they are just going to be balancing things to be harder than most other games out there.
It's like going on chopped and making a spicey entree and a sweet desert.
Your spicey entree is more than likely going to be too spicey for Amanda Freitag and not spicey enough for Aarón Sanchez.
Your sweet desert is more than likely going to be too sweet for Aarón Sanchez and not sweet enough for Amanda Freitag.
If they make it easy enough for anyone to complete, it is too easy for me, which means I won't run it more than once, which means I won't subscribe past 1-2 months because there is nothing for me to do.
The flip side of that is that solo/casual players will have vast amounts (apparently) of story and adventure content to do at end game. They just will have a hard time with dungeons and raids. Carbine is working hard to make content for everyone, but to do so they have to make content that isn't for everyone.
Everyone who wants hard content needs to go play GW2 super adventure box tribulation mode NOW
Sorry bro, not hard core enough for them. (I feel your pain with tribulation mode.)
After doing World 2 Zone 2 I actually checked for arrow boxes walking out of my room...
Well we have different point of views. I believe casuals come and go. Not keeping their subs up or not staying around for long etc. The hardcore faction that other % is what stays subbed every month and playing the game for 8 + years.
I see some hard core players in the same light as you see casuals, lol. Like they move on to the next big game for another challenge. Obviously there are exceptions, but that was the first thought that came to my brain.
OMG YOU MISSED ONE DODGE! asdflksdfwei
Individual casuals may come and go, but they are (at least when a game is going well) replaced with new one pretty quickly.
Hardcores, while not exclusively made up from, do include a lot of the flavor of the month crowd that comes in, rips through all the content in a game in days or weeks, then moves on to the next big thing.
But the thing is I'm not talking belief. I'm talking facts that have been shared by devs of several subscription MMOs, including Jeremy Gaffney at Carbine. Casuals and solo players make up the bulk of a player base and keep the servers up and running.
"Casuals come and go" is the key phrase here..... Lots and lots of them.
The "hardcore" are to few to keep a game viable on their own. It blows my mind how a tiny percentage of a mmo's population think they are the sole reason a game continues to prosper. Even Gaffney, the one in charge at Carbine knows better. You know... The company that is developing the "hardcore's" salvation in the mmo market... WildStar.
Goatslayrr was absolutely right when he said a game designed only for the "hardcore players" would flop so hard it would set off seismographs.
This really isn't directed at you Arsonist. It's directed at the folks that hear only what they want in order to satisfy their need for a game to cater strictly to them.
Hardcore players have their place in games... So does everyone else. Carbine will need them all to have a successful title.
I do as well but veteran players by and large especially raiders are the ones that stay in a game once all the gamehoppers leave. I am as guilty of using the term casual and hardcore as much as anyone but I think those terms are divisive and somewhat outmoded. I believe hardcore is more attitude than time related. A better term IMO is veteran MMO player and modern MMO player. The modern MMO gamer is the one that gamehops and wants everything handed to them and the veterans are ones that are upset at the current state of MMOs and want a return to challenge, difficulty, risk/reward and community. I see veteran players gamehop a lot more than they used to but by and large they are the ones that continue to play and support the game once all the modern players get bored and leave.
The path of least resistance will always be the most popular one, doesn't take a genius to figure that out. As is often the case, popularity usually does not equate to "best" or "highest quality" or "longevity".
If Carbine provided top tier loot through 1 man raids, those would be the most popular too.
Yet the smaller raids didn't offer the best loot until recently, and back when they were harder than the larger ones yet still more popular, they definitely didn't.
And this fallacy you people keep using is very much a fallacy. It's like saying "Well if something is better and popular, it's not actually better just because popular. Cause I don't like it, ergo, it must be true."
And, frankly, "best" is, in fact, what benefits the majority the most. If only a fraction of a percentage of players are able to do the content, why the hell should the other 99+% of the players be forced to pay and support their "fun?" I know I don't want to support it, but I'm forced to, especially when the designers are foolish enough to espouse how they're dedicating so much of their time and focus on catering to the smallest minority of players under the false -- and it is false -- belief that it somehow "inspires" the other players. Which is utter bulldrek, as I just look down upon those players and wish nothing more than for them to disappear the vast, vast, vast majority of the time. Doubly so because they tend to be the most obnoxious, annoying, and immature players in the game.
Take loot out of it entirely and then see which people do the most. I guarantee it won't be 40-man sized raids. That's solid proof that 40-man raids aren't fun or worth the effort put into designing them.
It's adorable that you think they're the majority and the rest of the community is the minority. I mean that. It's really adorable. Completely and utterly wrong, but adorable.
The devs have spoken of or shown content for everyone. The things that are hardcore are specifically tuned towards the hardcore. Makes sense right? That doesn't exclude casuals. I've said it before, as long as you have the will and dedication then you will be able to do what you want. Perhaps not as easily or quickly or even as typically but you can get it done.