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Chaotic Good vs Lawful Evil

Discussion in 'WildStar Races' started by Sebrent, Jun 4, 2013.

  1. Sebrent

    Sebrent New Cupcake

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    As I've been doing my usual lurking on the various Wildstar forums as well as official site, absorbing facts and people's ideas and opinions, I was struck with an idea of my own about this whole "good vs evil" that people have attached to "Exiles vs Dominion". I, personally, think this is line of thinking has valid reasons, but I also think this is missing out on part of the picture.

    The primary thing I think we're missing is the concepts of Lawful, Neutral, and Chaotic.
    That is, rather than have only Good and Evil, the options are:
    These are long-established, well-known RPG concepts.
    To me, it seems obvious that the Dominion is Lawful Evil. However, I'm not quite sure where the Exiles fit in. I think they are somewhere in the realm of Neutral Good, Chaotic Good, True Neutral, or Chaotic Neutral.
    I'm curious what your (the community's) thoughts are and, more importantly, why?
  2. Myrrdhinn

    Myrrdhinn Well-Known Cupcake

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    Carbine said many times, they didn't wanted to create a "good" side or a "bad" side. Both factions have their own reasons to do what they do. (Just wanted to say that :p)

    Interesting idea though. :)
    Personally, I sympathize with the Exiles. They were forced out of their homelands, and now they are seeking a new one. But on the other hand, the Cassians were chosen by the Elden to create a huge empire, so obviously, the Elden had (or has :O) an agenda too.

    I do accept the "mission" of the Dominon, I just don't approve their methods. So with the RPG concepts, I think the Dominion are Lawful Evils, and the Exiles would be the True Neutrals.
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  3. Thordran

    Thordran Cupcake-About-Town

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    Not sure that it's possible to put the entire exile faction into an alignment. Based upon the tone that they're going for, I'd say that they probably lean towards the chaos side of the spectrum and are probably neutral with good tendencies, with the dominion on the other side of the spectrum respectively.
  4. Xlugon Pyro

    Xlugon Pyro Super Cupcake

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    Need to see more faction lore and interactions to come to an educated decision.

    If I had to guess now though, I could see the Exiles as Neutral Good, Chaotic Good, True Neutral, or Chaotic Neutral.

    The Dominion would probably be Lawful Neutral, Lawful Evil, or Neutral Evil.
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  5. Sebrent

    Sebrent New Cupcake

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    I don't think I could classify the Dominion as Lawful Neutral because of the following few points from the links:

    Lawful Neutral Commandments
    2. You shall not kill the innocent​
    3. You shall not murder​

    Actually, when I look at Lawful Evil's Code and Signs of Weakness, I don't think the Dominion is Lawful Evil either because of the following few points from that link:

    Lawful Evil Code
    1. You shall not lie​
    7. You shall not betray others​

    Lawful Evil Signs of Weakness
    4. Breaking your word to a peer or ally​

    I'm not really seeing any issues with the Neutral Evil Code for Dominion. It seems to match what little lore we've seen so far since there is intra-house plotting in the Dominion, they definitely don't show mercy, they highly value strength, and they covet power.

    Neutral Evil Code
    1. You shall lie to advance yourself​
    2. You shall harm the innocent to advance yourself​
    3. You shall kill to advance yourself​
    4. You shall not aid the weak​
    5. You shall honor those who are stronger​
    6. You shall follow the law only to advance yourself​
    7. You shall betray friends, family, community, and nation to advance yourself​
    8. You shall not aid those who protect the weak​
    9. You shall not show mercy to enemies​
    10. You shall seek unlimited power over others​

    I'm not completely sure about the Neutral Evil Signs of Weakness for Dominion though as I don't think they go out of their way just to hurt people.

    Neutral Evil Signs of Weakness
    1. Failing to show malice or inflict pain on an innocent when it would be pleasurable to do so (maybe the <redacted race? they have been experimenting with live animals)​
    2. Not challenging a clearly weak leader for leadership​
    3. Keeping your word when doing so would interfere with personal gain​
    4. Refusing to commit cruel act that would harm your enemy or rival when appropriate​
    5. Making a sacrifice to help another when not important to your survival​
    6. Failing to commit cruel acts that are in your best interest​
    7. Refusing to kill for personal gain or wealth​
    8. Turning down a chance to gain power or wealth​
    9. Showing mercy to one who is opposed to you or your cause​
    10. Aiding the servants of good​

    Lawful Evil seems to prevent the backstabbing that was hinted at in the "Meet the Dominion" video. Lawful Neutral could fit because the only "issue" is the idea of inflicting pain or showing malice ... which the Dominion seems to do to any non-Dominion.

    ---

    As far as Carbine not wanting the factions to be "good vs evil", I'm more than fine with that stance and hope to get some more lore that allows the lines to be more blurred. However, with the current information we have, you more often than not read/hear people calling the Exiles "good" and the Dominion "evil".
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  6. Xlugon Pyro

    Xlugon Pyro Super Cupcake

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    If you follow the guidelines strictly in order to place a faction into a certain alignment, you won't be able to fit it. I don't really see any "evil" person or group valuing the truth by any means, especially from the Dominion's perspective because they need their citizenry to believe in the Dominion. As such, any information that would make the Dominion look bad would "necessarily" be muted.

    I think Lawful or Neutral Evil are probably the best fit. Whether they believe their rule is for the greater good or not matters little if the rulers deem their power more important than other people's lives, whether they're allies or not.

    Most likely what Carbine will do is give the Exiles a few darker aspects to make them more closely morally aligned with the Dominion than they otherwise would be. There's not as much you can do to make an all-powerful galactic empire look good outside of propaganda. Perhaps there's a few benevolent generals so to speak who value people's lives but sees war as a necessary evil and that fighting the Exiles is an unfortunate obligation in order to ensure peace. There would have to be enough of those guys though to lift the Dominion up though.
  7. Inimicus

    Inimicus Cupcake

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    What you have to consider is more the value of WHICH TRUTH, much like real religion, the Dominion want people to follow their system of belief, the story of how the Dominion came about could be all fairy tales and bull <REDACTED>, but they want people to believe in their belief system and want people to follow what they deem "the right path" so if they have to tell some stories to make people believe in their greater truth, i think they would see that as an honest goal.

    Kind of a whole "the end justifies the means" mentality, which i see as the underlying root of the Dominion, whereas i feel the Exiles completely counter this mentality and will fight to deny such a thing being enforced upon them.
  8. NigthmareSystem

    NigthmareSystem Cupcake-About-Town

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    that system is really outdated, because in the end both are evil, they kill innocents from the other faction because both factions thinks they are the good ones.

    the only race I can see as Good, are the Aurins, the rest are all evil
  9. Xlugon Pyro

    Xlugon Pyro Super Cupcake

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    Every thread about discussing how good or evil a character or faction is ultimately results in a deeply philosophical discussion/argument about what good or evil really is, is it only relative or absolute, etc.
  10. Chim

    Chim Cupcake-About-Town

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    To say the truth, for me they are all evil, maybe dominion not that much. Dom [polish "house", "home", huh] have their order. Exiles want to destroy that. For me it's bad. Where's system when it's destroyed? Nowhere! All what exiles can do is chaos. If I may born in that universe as Granok/Aurin/Human - I may fight for Dom anyway. I'm not hippie to love people. I'm myself and I love the order.
  11. Chomag

    Chomag Cupcake-About-Town

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    The Dominion comprises both justice and order as well as political intrigues and corruption.

    The Exiles are outcasts that comprise oppressed people, refugees as well as criminals running from the law and mercenaries willing to kill for the highest bidder.

    Neither faction is truly good nor truly evil. Both have good elements as well as evil.

    So nasty being unable to paint a mary-sue faction, isn't it ?!
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  12. NigthmareSystem

    NigthmareSystem Cupcake-About-Town

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    this is the best part in this game xD
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  13. Eluldor

    Eluldor Cupcake-About-Town

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    Instead of analyzing every single individual within each faction, maybe some folks should decide based on government/structure.

    Exiles having criminals (what crime) running from the law (what law? Dominion?) and mercenaries - willing to kill for the highest bidder - not exactly. The Law of the Dominion no longer applies to the Exiles, as they are their own governing body. The Exiles and Dominion are not allies, so they won't extradite criminals or something to the opposing side. So once said criminals would join the Exiles, they would no longer be running - unless said criminals really aren't part of the Exiles. If you take the Dominion POV, then I may see the point better. The only confirmed mercenaries are Granok that don't work for the highest bidder - otherwise the Dominion would simply pay them :p

    Both sides obviously have elements within all fields, but overall each side also pulls to a certain direction very strongly. I already voted on the other Polls, before coming here, but I ended up pointing the government / structure of each as the OP does.

    Edit: Chaotic Good is often described with "don't tell us how to live" as any Lawful, especially Evil would do.
  14. Baeldan

    Baeldan Cupcake-About-Town

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    However I'd say that what Carbine aimed to do and what they've produced are two entirely different things. From my perspective they're so amazingly clearly, black and white good and evil that the value lies in the whacky comedy rather than any kind of interesting moral ambiguity.
  15. Nesphito

    Nesphito Cupcake

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    I don't like fitting a faction into one category, there are many different people in a faction.

    For example the Dominion will have somewhere in-between Lawful Evil and Lawful Neutral leaders, the common citizens will be True Neutral and Neutral Good, the majority of soldiers (players) will be Lawful Neutral and some Neutral Good.

    The Exile leaders (if there are any) would be Chaotic Good, the citizens are Chaotic Neutral and True Neutral, and the players / soldiers would be Mostly Chaotic Good with some Chaotic Neutral, and a few Neutral Evil (mercenaries).


    I was going to spend more time splitting up the factions by alignment, but it would have taken too long since you have to take the races into account and there is always an exception of what kind of character someone wants to play as.
  16. Celtkhan

    Celtkhan Well-Known Cupcake

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    For the record, I plan to be Chaotic Angry and regard Dominion as Lawful Tasty. Except the Mechari; they're more Neutral Crunchy.
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  17. Maddog Charlie

    Maddog Charlie Cupcake-About-Town

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    Tricky one to pinpoint but a good discussion folks, fact is the 'good' is typically defined by the majority. The means for achieving the good could historically be regarded as almost 'evil' as time passes and civilization becomes more civilized. Gygax's (D&D) original concepts were based on his perception after all wernt they ?

    Good and Evil, right and wrong falls down to the majority perception of what should and should not be done in any given circumstance. Those regarded as Evil may just be isolated outsiders with deep faith in their beliefs but if that belief isn't followed by the majority or is counter to the majority beliefs it becomes evil.

    But as a nod to those who have commented above individualism bears into this too, some may fall from grace and become regarded as 'evil' in some ways but maybe they need to just refocus, see things in the light of the majority and fight to do what is right once again...........or does the majority need to get its act together and see how things really are ???? (You decide)

    Exile vs Dominion seems simple to me though, its just 'Kick Ass' or 'be kicked' ! right :) LOL

    (YES my degree was in 'clouding issues' LOL)
  18. Miatog

    Miatog Cupcake-About-Town

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    I have to agree, the Dominion is a great example of Lawful Evil. They aren't exactly the best chaps, but they have their laws and they follow it, while expanding the reach of their laws. From what I've seen they don't seem the kind to take kindly to 'corruption' or abuse of power.

    The Exiles are also a perfect example of Chaotic Good. They're going against the law, against what's been set up. That's the chaotic, but they're doing it to help the universe. Get rid of a dark, evil, horrible galactic empire!
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  19. kanoyo

    kanoyo New Cupcake

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    imo​
    Cassian - Lawful Evil​
    Mechari - Lawful Evil
    Draken - Lawful Neutral

    Exile Human - Chaotic Good
    Granok - Chaotic Good
    Aurins - Lawful Good

    imo, just from the story. Every individual is different of course.
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  20. Bravadorado

    Bravadorado Cupcake-About-Town

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    Bolded part is incredibly wrong. Just because they want to destroy the Dominion order doesn't mean the only thing that will come of it is chaos. As I said in my other post, you can treat it like the American Revolution. We threw off our shackles of oppression and were able to maintain peace and stability. There is of course a chance that the Exiles will all stupidly turn on each other and anarchy will be born, but there is equal or greater chance that the Exiles can create and maintain their own form of government, order and laws. I mean, they are banding together and combating the Dominion on a full scale war, obviously they aren't stupid and have considerable military strength. I prefer to hope that the Exiles are smart enough to maintain the peace after their victory, rather than just deal with the hugely oppressive dictatorship of the Dominion.

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