1. Hey Guest! If you're more than just a WildStar fan and want to keep up on the latest MMO news, reviews and opinion pieces then I'd like to suggest you visit our sister site MMO Central

Chaotic Good vs Lawful Evil

Discussion in 'WildStar Races' started by Sebrent, Jun 4, 2013.

  1. Chim

    Chim Cupcake-About-Town

    Joined:
    May 29, 2013
    Likes Received:
    58
    Trophy Points:
    28
    Location:
    Wroclaw, Poland

    Bolder part is incredibly wrong. Writed by Exile's one. Borthers and sister, they can't see by ours eyes, they are blind childs. They see just theirs own lies! Help them to see! Even on the death bed.
    Joukehainen likes this.
  2. Bravadorado

    Bravadorado Cupcake-About-Town

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2013
    Likes Received:
    168
    Trophy Points:
    43
    Location:
    Nunda, New York
    I get that you're trying to be funny, but saying I am wrong without backing up your argument at all is just ignorant. You also didn't even bold any of my post.
  3. Chim

    Chim Cupcake-About-Town

    Joined:
    May 29, 2013
    Likes Received:
    58
    Trophy Points:
    28
    Location:
    Wroclaw, Poland

    It's more that I don't speak english that good.
  4. Sebrent

    Sebrent New Cupcake

    Joined:
    May 10, 2013
    Likes Received:
    17
    Trophy Points:
    3
    Location:
    Knoxville, TN
    Excellent discussion so far, everyone. I'm thoroughly enjoying reading our thoughts.

    I think to get a better idea between Lawful Good, Lawful Neutral, and Lawful Evil, you have to look at the nature of the laws as well as how lawbreakers and those outside their "jurisdiction" are treated.

    A Lawful Good society is one I often see as being quite protective. Their laws are intended to protect their citizens. They additionally expand their influence through acts of good will.

    A Lawful Neutral society is one I often see as focusing on balance. Their laws promote keeping things "balanced" such that wrongs balanced with rights and vice versa. I'm not quite sure how their influence expands, if at all, though. I think they may focus more on simply "being balanced".

    A Lawful Evil society is one I often see as focusing on power/control. Their laws promote power/control. The more you have, the better off you are and the laws are there to enable those with power/control to not only maintain it but acquire more. Additionally, they expand their influence through acts of domination as they attempt to overpower/control "more".

    Seeing as how these are my views, I think it's obvious that I see the Dominion as Lawful Evil.

    ---

    However, having said this, if Carbine can successful show relatively equal acts of both Good and Evil by both factions and/or paint their actions in a light such that their actions are more subjective (i.e. the Dominion destroyed Aurin world because it was a giant narcotics farm) then we could very well end up with something like Chaotic Neutral vs Lawful Neutral.

    ---

    As far as the different races within each faction differing in their alignments, I think that's another subject that we could touch on some more.
    Chim likes this.
  5. Chim

    Chim Cupcake-About-Town

    Joined:
    May 29, 2013
    Likes Received:
    58
    Trophy Points:
    28
    Location:
    Wroclaw, Poland
    Cassians won't make theirs lifes bad so if you're part of Dominion you live in luxury. :D
    But we have a little bad politic for enemies... :3
  6. Sebrent

    Sebrent New Cupcake

    Joined:
    May 10, 2013
    Likes Received:
    17
    Trophy Points:
    3
    Location:
    Knoxville, TN
    I disagree, Chim. According to the lore we got on the Luminai we learned that there are highborn and lowborn Cassians.



    Now this doesn't confirm (nor does it deny) the existence of impoverished Cassians, but it does make it possible. The mentioned divide could simply be between a "middle-class" level and "super-wealthy" level. However, it could also be between "impoverished" and the "super wealthy" with the regular "middle-class" similar to the U.S.A.

    I'm sure we'll know more as the game nears launch. I just wanted to point out that I believe the idea that all Cassians live lives of luxury is currently an assumption as there is potential evidence against that idea.
    Sonntam likes this.
  7. Chim

    Chim Cupcake-About-Town

    Joined:
    May 29, 2013
    Likes Received:
    58
    Trophy Points:
    28
    Location:
    Wroclaw, Poland
    Luxury is that you can live in peace with ours lord. For me [oh, <REDACTED>] it's normal that when you have good backs from family you're better - same with Cassians. They are closer by blood to emperor so they have better jobs. If luxury is for you Great Luminai house, oke. Welp. I like Mechari n Draken more, I'll be glad to kill with them. :D
  8. Apostate

    Apostate Well-Known Cupcake

    Joined:
    May 20, 2013
    Likes Received:
    367
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Depends on how they address the labor issue. Whether it's mechanized, imported, or if there is indeed a homegrown Cassian underclass. I'm hoping for option #3, personally, because there's really no better way to play up how evil your empire is than to showcase its casual disregard for the sanctity of human life. If a mine collapses and the company in charge decides to pave over the wreckage because it's cheaper than rescuing the workers... that kind of thing. People are resources. Expendable resources. And so on.

    If they really do want to make a more "shades of gray" tale, though, the Cassian workforce will probably be mechanized. Or staffed entirely by orderly, efficient patriots with high morale.
    Sonntam likes this.
  9. Sebrent

    Sebrent New Cupcake

    Joined:
    May 10, 2013
    Likes Received:
    17
    Trophy Points:
    3
    Location:
    Knoxville, TN
    I feel you're trying to roleplay some with your replies, but I don't think this is quite the place for that.

    Additionally, it doesn't entitle you to make up your own definition of luxury for this sort of discussion.

    Webster's Dictionary: Luxury
  10. Chim

    Chim Cupcake-About-Town

    Joined:
    May 29, 2013
    Likes Received:
    58
    Trophy Points:
    28
    Location:
    Wroclaw, Poland

    Whatever you think, whatever you feel - I don't. I jus try to think about W* reality. We have war, it's hard time. Peace with strong side is comfortable. Luxury is comfort, isn't it? You can get place in big city where your family can live. It is true luxury in that time. Dunno why people don't care about that. They look on that universe like on ours lifes. It's much different.
  11. Nezk

    Nezk Cupcake

    Joined:
    May 25, 2013
    Likes Received:
    19
    Trophy Points:
    8
    Good and Evil?

    More like Oppressed and Oppressor.
    ArdentSun likes this.
  12. Extatica

    Extatica Super Cupcake

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2013
    Likes Received:
    2,884
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Z-Lab

    I haven't seen any innocent people getting killed ;) The Aurin helped rebels, the Exile humans rebelled against the empire. The Grannok smashed a mechari diplomat/embassador.

    So where do we see innocent people getting killed? Those Exiles are as bad as the Dominion, who just starts killing/destroying an embassador? That's an act of war.

    Who helps rebels? That can be seen as provocative aswell....

    And well....rebels....i don't think i have to spell this one out for you :D
    Wait....say what?
    More subjective by making it a drugs world? :eek:
    Isn't aiding rebels a ''subjective'' reason enough?

    Also why do people want to shove faction in a box? It's like saying ''oh you did this so you must be that''.....

    However since most people hate words, i'll illustrate it with an awesome picture!

    This shows us that 1 person (and thus 1 faction aswell), can be more then 1 ''thing''

    To hell with good/evil/lawfull/neutral and all those......everyone can be everything:
    Lelouch__s_Alignment_Chart_by_AlsoSprachOdin.jpg

    So a faction/race can be everything depending on the situation you're looking at.
    Don't go label them for past events, please :up:
    Joukehainen and Chim like this.
  13. Sebrent

    Sebrent New Cupcake

    Joined:
    May 10, 2013
    Likes Received:
    17
    Trophy Points:
    3
    Location:
    Knoxville, TN
    @Extatica:
    Good points. Definitely highlighted some of the key points that could be argued from the Dominion's perspective.

    +1 for pics. I can't for the life of me remember the name of it, but I enjoyed the first season of it.

    As far as the Aurin world being a "drug world" "making it more controversial" ... I was going from the standpoint of simply "the Dominion destroyed their world" which is a much less controversial position (if accepted, of course).

    Also, it being a "drug world" could have several meaning. For example, the indigenous species could be used to make "drugs" even though the Aurin do not use them for such; perhaps other outlaws were though. Or perhaps the "drugs" are actually more of the "miracle cure" sort for some epidemic elsewhere in the universe and it's one of those "the end justifies the means" sort of deals.

    It could be viewed many different ways ;-)
  14. SiegaPlays

    SiegaPlays "That" Cupcake

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2011
    Likes Received:
    454
    Trophy Points:
    83
    Location:
    Denmark
    I'm going to say lawful for Dominion and chaotic for Exiles.

    Dominion wants status quo, which is whoever is topdog in their hierachy is the law and everyone else better stick to the script, or else, well, there is always the second option, a blaster shot to your head, right - while Exiles wants a total game change of status quo, freedom from the oppressive institution the Dominion is, away from the sense of safety there might be in following the rules of the law set by the Dominion to the letter.

    Good/Neutral/Evil can be on both sides, some have their goals for selfserving purposes because they have more to gain personally, others because they believe in a greater good in whichever codex they fight for.
    Chim likes this.
  15. Foxchain

    Foxchain New Cupcake

    Joined:
    May 14, 2013
    Likes Received:
    18
    Trophy Points:
    3
    Location:
    Aboard the mothership
    For the Dominion, I'd have to lean on the side of Lawful Evil. Although a few of their characteristics skirt the edge of the general concept, they still appear to carry many of the hallmarks of a Lawful Evil community: Hierarchical structure, ruthless conquest, zero tolerance for dissidents, success of the whole emphasized over success of the one, arrogant vision of manifest destiny, etc.

    Neutral Evil leans more towards malevolent self-interest. Such a community would come together more out of convenience/personal benefit rather than an overarching goal (a thieves' guild being a fair example). As such, the Dominion's pursuit of its "destiny" doesn't fit this mold well.

    As for the Exiles, I would loosely toss them in the Neutral Good bag: General attitude of cooperation while allowing for personal freedom, loosely organized, following 'orders' when feasible, ditching them when necessary, protective of innocents, not looking for a fight but not backing down from one either, etc.

    Just a side note:
    From my own understanding of the alignment system, I would argue that Lawful Neutral is less about balance, and more about the law being viewed as an absolute. A Lawful Neutral person is often described as "judge" or "disciplinarian," focused primarily on the enforcement of the law, with little (if any) concern about the ethics of a specific application of said law. From their perspective, the law is neither inherently good(protective) or evil(oppressive). It simply is, and it sets the standard.
    ArdentSun likes this.
  16. Bravadorado

    Bravadorado Cupcake-About-Town

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2013
    Likes Received:
    168
    Trophy Points:
    43
    Location:
    Nunda, New York
    Yes, because sending an unprotected ambassador to a savage and primitive planet is sure to end up nicely. The Granok saw strange people land on their planet and after being told to swear allegiance to them (Or else) they acted as accordingly as any creatures of substandard intelligence. Was killing the dude the right thing to do? No, but neither is sending an ambassador to a savage planet and telling the inhabitants to work for you.

    No, aiding the rebels isn't a good enough reason. By what I've seen of the lore, the aurin barely even knew about the war when they first helped the exiles. Furthermore, telling someone that "your planet is ours and we're taking it because you helped the people we are fighting" is against the standard rules of war. Just because a neutral helps an enemy does not make them an enemy, and it doesn't mean that you get to turn your Eye of Sauron on them and destroy them. You could warn them and say that you will be forced to take action if they continue to help the exiles, you could tell them that you'd like them to return the favor to the dominion if you ever needed aid, you could do lots of things. Taking their planet and killing/enslaving most of it's people? Not a thing you can do.

    It's pretty clear to most that the Exiles are the "good guys" here and the Dominion are the "bad guys", which is why the OP wants Wildstar's factions to paint their actions in a light such that their actions are more subjective. Law is good, but the dominion are going about it in an oppressive, destructive, and wrong way. Peace is good, but who knows if the exiles will be able to succeed in creating it rather than anarchy?

    Really the choice here is: Do you want to be part of a posse that destroys/enslaves/assimilates anyone that isn't pretty or vicious enough to be in your ranks, or do you want to be part of the defenders of the innocents who may or may not be making the universe a better place to live for all? Obviously this a game so you can choose if you want your morals to apply or not.
  17. Jarek

    Jarek New Cupcake

    Joined:
    May 30, 2013
    Likes Received:
    11
    Trophy Points:
    3
    Well we will find out when we get to play a few of the quests I expect... the nature of the factions will become clearer at that point. My personal take is that we are talking more starwars than anything else... the Empire and the Rebel Alliance. Now the Dominion are Lawful Evil from the Exiles point of view, and the Exiles are probably Chaotic Neutral or Chaotic Evil from the Dominion's viewpoint... however only the winner gets to write the history books.
  18. Apostate

    Apostate Well-Known Cupcake

    Joined:
    May 20, 2013
    Likes Received:
    367
    Trophy Points:
    63
    I think there's plenty of subjectivity in the narrative already, it's just that the personality traits most people would prefer to identify themselves with mostly wound up on the Exiles. For anyone who likes to root for the "individualistic underdog" type, the Exiles are clearly "the good guys". Since that's generally what most fiction pushes as the ideal, and it's what we'd all like to think of ourselves, that narrative subjectivity might have been aimed a little off-center.

    I'm fine with that, personally, because I don't need a good guy badge. I could enjoy the Dominion being legitimately evil, as opposed to just imperialistic, but I think I'd be just as happy if the writers decide to muddle the waters further with some additional moral ambiguity. Maybe a few surprisingly bad moves from the Exiles, or a few surprisingly good ones from the Dominion.

    Lawful Evil is my very favorite alignment, though. I'd be happy to wear it with pride.
  19. Joukehainen

    Joukehainen Well-Known Cupcake

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2013
    Likes Received:
    308
    Trophy Points:
    63
    IMO:

    Dominion: Lawful Neutral with Lawful Evil leanings

    Exiles: Chaotic Good
  20. Doomgrin

    Doomgrin Cupcake-About-Town

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2013
    Likes Received:
    62
    Trophy Points:
    28


    Categorizing a society is not the same as categorizing an individual. A society does not have motivations, the people in power (being the minority) do.

    With that said, I think you simply have to say Dominion is Lawful, and Exile is neutral. Dominion uses strict order and structure. The Exiles are doing what they can to exist.

Share This Page