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Circuit Board Crafting: Random Chips Discussion

Discussion in 'WildStar General' started by CRB_Gortok, May 11, 2013.

  1. Sol

    Sol Cupcake-About-Town

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    We'll jut have to play the game and find out! And I'll certainly still be trying for it (and a lot of other players too I think) that's for sure =)
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  2. C1d0s

    C1d0s Cupcake

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    Oh, no doubt about it!
  3. CRB_Gortok

    CRB_Gortok Carbine Econ Designer

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    I have actually been thinking a lot about what you and a few others have said over the course of the last few days. Just because a person is in the minority opinion does not mean that they aren't right. Fortunately design is not done by vote :)

    I bring this stuff to the forum to vet the ideas, and make them stronger. It may just be that the scope of randomness is too high, or perceived to be too high to suit your needs. The 1/7000 number I quoted earlier is by far the most adjustable part of this system, so bringing it in closer to 1/70 isn't going to ruin everything for me.

    So let me give a little more detail.
    Gloves can currently only have 3 locked in stats on them, and all of them are offensive in nature. One is good for tanks, 2 are good for healers, and all of them are good for DPS. Each of these stats also has a chance to come with a 2nd flat bonus of either health or some other offensive stat. (this chance is smaller than 50% early in the game, and higher than 50% later).

    Assuming an item with 1 locked stat and 2 open stats, your best roll on this item is going to be the glove stat you want (maybe 1/3 chance) and the flat bonus you want ( about 1/10 we'll say). So that is a 1/30 chance of getting what you want. If you are a tank or healer, the item is either usable by you or not. If you are DPS the item is always usable.

    So what is most optimal in this situation? Well that depends on the stat distribution. If the distribution is even in all the sockets (33.3%), then really any of the top 3 stats will be fine with you. If this socket is locked 25%, and the other two are 40% and 35%, then the stat you want in the locked 25% is your THIRD best stat. How big of a deal is it if the locked chip in the 25% socket is your second best stat? That means you have to put your third best stat in the 35% socket. That means that 10% of your budget is spent on a stat that is slightly inferior, when compared to the best this item could have been. At this point, most people will say "good enough", because the over all DPS boost of fixing that 10% will possibly be something like 0.1%. Let me get back to the flat bonuses.

    Now lets take that same item and add a second locked stat. Lets say we have a 12% and a 16% locked stat. Both of them come from the 3 gloves stats. The chances of you getting exactly the order you want is about 1/6, and the chances of having both of them have the flat bonus you want about 1/100. The worst case scenario here is that you get no flat bonuses and roll the two best stats that item can roll (now they are locked into a low percent socket and you can't put them in the open sockets). Other DPS might prioritize those stats different, and think this item is perfect.

    Other possibilities:
    1 random glove and 1 designer picked glove stat
    1 random glove and 1 locked non glove
    1 locked picked glove and 1 random non glove from a small set
    For example, 1 tank/dps stat locked, and then a small random list that includes tank and dps chips, so that it will go to the tank if it rolls a tank chip and a dps if it rolls a dps chip.

    Anyway, there is a ton of flexibility, and this doesn't get into accounting for "thresholds" (did I explain those in CBC blog?), the random unlocked chips, specials, locked set chips, etc.

    The balance issue I am looking at is to make sure those items that have a high probability on them to roll exactly what you want are not actually the best possible thing you can get, otherwise they are a realistic BiS. So things with less variability are safer bets to be good, but not as likely to be awesome. In this case, the items that are going to usually be close to optimal are probably going to have less flat bonuses. The flat bonuses each add about 2% to the over all power of the item.

    So I will have to work hard to find the perfect balance here where getting items feels the most rewarding the most amount of the time.

    Other random thought - Stats with flat bonuses that you can extract ALWAYS have a required power. This means you can usually only put one or two into your highest power sockets. Fused chips have no required power, so the most flat bonuses you can get on an item is with all its low % sockets being fused with flat bonuses, and then modding the rest of the item to have some.

    Alright, this is way off topic. Long story short, I am looking to find a middle ground, although it may not be possible.
    Zilvoran, Sol and Yakzan like this.
  4. Dualist

    Dualist Cupcake-About-Town

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    I think my brain just quit trying to comprehend that text wall.

    Edit: Realized that may have come off as mean, was referring to the weakness of my brain, not the incomprehensibility of the text wall. Still trying :confused:
  5. lusciifi

    lusciifi Cupcake-About-Town

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    How do the weekly raiding competitions play into BiS calculations. Will the rewards be stat based and have a chance at being BiS or will it be appearance based. My vote would be for appearance gear/mounts but as you stated, its not really a democracy.
  6. CRB_Gortok

    CRB_Gortok Carbine Econ Designer

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    To be fair, I am hands on with the system, and you guys are all just theorycrafting. It's kinda hard to discuss "the finer details" with a system that is effectively just on paper for you guys. That is one of the reasons I cannot really argue point for point sometimes - my counter to certain concerns people have is going to have to wait until we actually get more people playing with the system to fully comprehend the implications.
  7. LeFrag

    LeFrag Cupcake

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    will there be capes? just a random thought that came up :D..check out my userbar thread too..i made one for carbine :D
  8. BonusStage

    BonusStage Well-Known Cupcake

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    Interesting, aproach on loot for a mmo.

    you guys just dont stop incressing my hype for this game, cant wait for release

    Iam going to read it all tomorrow, but i just wanted to voice my only concern about this, if it has already been settled please ignore.

    The only reason why random stats on loot didnt work on D3, was becasue you could end up with a Barbarian item with Wizard stats.

    as long as every stat is usefull for every class(in some respect) that shouldnt be a problem.
  9. Dualist

    Dualist Cupcake-About-Town

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    That's fair, I look forward to getting down to the nitty gritty of the details eventually.

    PS: First time a dev of any game ever has responded/quoted me personally, I may die of happiness :notworthy:
  10. XPhiler

    XPhiler Cupcake

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    Dont get me wrong, You're absolutely right. If two players have the same exact skill and they both make no mistakes and make the right tactical decisions, it will indeed boil down to gear and perhaps how much the randomness gods smile upon them no doubt. What I am saying is there are multiple top level variables involved in combat. There is player skill, there is the character build, there is player tactical decisions, there is the player execution of those tactical decisions, team work, chosen buffs, Randomness gods meddling, etc.... etc... Its not just gear that determines how much damage you do and how often. All of these variables are well variable and all are equally important. Now I am not trying to be a pain, I understand your points is out of all of these the most constant and the easiest to control is indeed gear so It makes absolute sense you'd want that to be as optimal as you can. That being said, until that happens you can view it is a variable like any other.

    What I worry about is often there is a trend were people tend to focus too much on gear and forget the rest. I saw this often in Gw2. People angry because they were sub optimal since they needed a couple of months to get their ascended gear (top tier in Gw2) when it was introduced yet they never bothered with buffs that can be acquired through consumables and those buffs from the consumables would provide stats 3 - 5 times the stats people would get by acquiring the top tier gear as opposed to the 2nd best. Same was with combat, many times people just didnt use skills that buff others and it was rare for these to be kept up all the time. They often rather focus on using skills that do the most damage. Those buffs if kept up could do some pretty powerful effects such as speeding everyone attack speed or even provide bonuses equivalent to a whole new tier of armor would provide to everyone involved in the fight. Now not saying the same will happen with Wildstar. Part of the problem in Gw2 was that it was just too easy, you didnt need to bother with any of this and still win easily. More then that is perhaps that Gw2 didnt have strictly defined roles and left the choice entirely to the player. Basically you didnt have any support specific classes, every class had ways how it could be played as support hence it was up to the individual. Everyone could buff everyone else it was a matter of a personal choice if you took such skills and if you used them.

    Back to Wildstar... I dont think Wildstar will be like that of course, yet there will still be support classes and any player's performance will also depend on their skills. They did show telegraphed AOE heals, so lets assume there will also be AOE telegraphed buffs. DPS A performance compared with DPS B will in part depend on DPS B in such a scenario because if DPS B is on the other side of the room Support player 1 will have a problem where to cast said buff and one of the DPS will either miss it or waste a ton of DPS as they scramble to reach the telegraph in time. Like wise performance will also depend on the support player and his/her spacial awareness, if both DPS are in proximity of each other but the support person casts the AOE buff on the side of one of them rather then in between, once again one of the DPS will again loose DPS in order to get the Buff etc..

    At end of the day you're right. You want everything to be as best as it can be no doubt. But the situation is just not as dire as it seems simply because just like you're having to fight the odds to get the best gear so is the next player. The advantage you get with the best gear is just one advantage out of many possible advantages you can get in a fight.

    What I am trying to say in perhaps too many words is that I think BiS is something you should strive for but not something you should loose sleep over.
  11. Batzorig

    Batzorig Cupcake-About-Town

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    Yeah, the disadvantages of us not being able to poke and prod at the system itself are begining to show, methinks. Still trying to add what I can though.

    Now, while I understand the perspective of those who like to seek out the BiS, I think it may be risky to try and please them while keeping the intended design of this system. After all, if the idea is to create options for players by making BiS items rare, I don't think there's a balancing point that can exist between that and those who want to 'finish' each tier by collecting a full set of BiS.

    Also, slightly different topic now, but it just recently popped into my mind, and figured I'd throw it out here for debate and thought.

    There's been a decent mentioning of the concept of those "jackpot" moments when getting new gear, and the new pieces is a huge upgrade over the previous piece. Along those same lines, was any thought ever given to limiting which types of items drop in each tier of raiding, or something similar?

    So Tier 1 might have every item slot as available drops, tier 2 might only have about half of them, which means when tier 3 rolls around, everyone would still have tier 1 items (admittedly, upgraded with tier 2 chips most likely, but still), and the replacements would be seriously big deals. It would also mean that in each of the limited tiers, raiders would have fewer items to focus on, and so could focus on getting items that are closer to BiS than they would if they needed 12 new items.

    Of course, there's a whole pile of problems with the idea, but maybe it might give someone else's brain a jump-start. Now that I've finished writing it, I'm not sure I like it that much myself, but oh well. Such is thinking.

    EDIT: Another idea, suddenly. What about some sort of 'Breaker' Chip, a chip that can literally break a locked chip and takes it's place. Creating it would probably take some serious raid mats, and a chip that you would want to convert into the breaker, such that it would be quite inefficient to create your BiS items over getting 'close enough', but still an option for those who wanted to go nuts.

    Just a thought.
  12. AnotherJaggens

    AnotherJaggens Cupcake-About-Town

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    Why you don't like BiS to begin with?

    That's most sane way to do it really. Stamina were used for years in WoW as "everywhere stat". Now if you make a list of at least variants for tank specific or dps specific (single fused stat, double equal fused stat, double unequal fused stat) you get a list of stuff. That stuff won't be BiS, because in such a system BiS of any piece (given that same ilvl item has same amount of power->same amount of stats combined) will be BiS. It just depends on what's person has in other slots already with fused and unlocked chips, and what's goal of gearing is.

    And second thing - you are probably trying too hard at this point. You are working on a system that is going to be used by every single player to some extent, and it's not gonna go nice with those, who doesn't want to get into gearing with spreadsheet and calculator.

    Or a roulette of 2 lists at same time: first for 1 fused chip goes thru n number of stats. If it rolls fused chip 1 for tank - next fused chip rolled thru another tank roulette for 2nd fused, and opposite if fused 1 were rolled for dps. That way it's still random, has low probability to roll exactly what you want, but at least every result will always make sense.
  13. Alverad

    Alverad Well-Known Cupcake

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    This, Really wish more people would perceive it like that.

    If you played WoW competively, and you paid attention to World of Logs at any given time, you could easily see, that the top 50, or even 100 dpsers of a particular spec where never the same for long. Top players on there, were either those that coupled skill with gear and a whole lotta luck during an encounter, or their guilds where going for an individual record and did everything in their power to accomodate that one player during a fight, so he can top the world charts. In many cases it wasn't even though for personal ego boosts, rather having guild recruitment in mind - nothing lures ambitious players more then seeing X number of guild Y members topping charts;) With a little help from your friends, you didn't need BIS gear to appear on the very top of the WOLs, just skill, help from others, and luck.

    Min/Maxing is a game of it's own. It's fun to theorycraft yourself, or simply follow those that do it and try to push the limits of your gear to the best setup possible. However, gear alone, does not guarantee success. Not having 'optimal' piece, or two, or even three, will not have a massive impact on your performance. The differences are subtle, and while in an ideal envoronment or on spreadshieets they may be noticable, in practice, different encounters 'favour' different classes, specs, setups; in case of WS, it may very well mean different action sets will have more of an impact per encounter then theoretical BIS gear, if such existed. Considering WS combat is very action oriented, I can see the sense of timing, reflexes, reactions, ability to make quick decisions on the fly having a much bigger role then having that perfect trinket.

    I like the principles behind the chip system, I like the fact that some 'randomness' will make you think and choose, like the fact that there will always be a reason to strife for something 'better' if you happen to be that competitive and perfectionist by nature. It also means, raiding guilds will not struggle with the usual - I got my BIS, going to play (insert game here) now, until next tier, bye bye WS, screw you all attitude;)

    And lastly, considering all classes are hybrids, and everyone can, if they want to, focus on more then one role - the choices become even more interesting, what may be good but theoretically suboptimal for your dps, may just be ideal for your other spec. Double win really:)
  14. Jojin

    Jojin Cupcake-About-Town

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    It is very finite and inflexible; it means the end of the road for improvement rewards from activities.

    To me an enjoyable MMO is one where I have endless variables to configure and always a way to get a little better. I think in larger terms, this method of loot takes things closer to a Sandbox design; free to build how you want, versus a Themepark; gear paths are already laid out.

    When I read about chips, it reminds me of some aspects of EVE. There you can have a ton of different ways to equip yourself. Some are considered best design, but only until someone comes along and builds something better.

    Taking another note from EVE, it isn't much of an issue if we shift our focus to what we do as a whole, in terms of accomplishments and victories. For example, in EVE, a big accomplishment is out performing or killing someone who has superior equipment to yourself.

    I guess my view is BiS doesn't really matter as it is just a small aspect of the larger entity which is player and character. If you desire to rate yourself versus others, do more complex comparisons showing how efficient and what skills you have as a player to bring out the optimum potential of your current gear.
  15. Mat'hir Uth Gan

    Mat'hir Uth Gan Cupcake-About-Town

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    I think it may be a design flaw, or possibly a negative side effect of instancing. Everquest allowed you to map out your items, and I doubt very few people ever came remotely close to getting every item on their wishlist. People didn't complete that game. And when you got your rare item, you had to help those that helped you get theirs. It was almost a never ending circle with payoffs along the way.

    I'd argue that vanilla Warcraft was also pretty good about letting you map out your items, though outside of MC and BWL, you could pretty much chain run instances and get your drop within a week. Having the raids available once a week sped things up massively compared to EQ, but at least early on, they were insanely hard so accumulating gear took until the next expansion.

    If you break it all down, it's pretty easy to see why EQ and WoW were so popular. You guys are trying to follow suit in some ways, but I'm very concerned about this loot system. The GW2 devs thought they were doing a great thing by removing the holy trinity and raiding, and it killed their game. Devs can be wrong. And when you're wrong, you pay for it big time as the fanbase doesn't sit around and wait for you to fix the issue. Like the holy trinity with GW2, it seems like you're removing one of the absolute stalwarts of a great MMO, loot mapping and acquisition.

    If EQ or WoW would have made that loot decision, it would have diminished their massive appeal. Camping/farming rare drops, knowing you'd eventually get them if you put in the time, was one of the great carrots for those games. I don't mind doing a camp or running a dungeon/raid in the hopes that Boss X drops his rare item that will drastically upgrade my toon's power. But, I don't like the sound of your system at all. I invest all this time and instead of getting what I really want, I have to make due with some lackluster item? And then I have to farm more chips to try and make it better? This is a bad design decision that I think you'll regret down the road, say roughly three to five months after launch. It's not going to keep people playing your game longer, it's going to make them leave in frustration.

    Gamers know you can't really complete an MMO, but as the recent influx of Achievement systems have shown, people sure like to try. Loot acquisition and planning is part of that meta-game. And though it might take you several months to get that one item you really want, there's a real sense of accomplishment when it finally happens, and now you can move on to doing the next item on the list if that's your thing. This was one of the great carrots of an MMO, and it was one of the main reasons people kept playing EQ and WoW. Who cares if there is a website telling you what items to go get, you still have to actually be able to pull it off. EQ was particularly great at making that challenging. WoW being instanced and solo-friendly made it less so. Unless this game is faceroll though, that should be a good challenge, even at lower levels. And it's pretty easy to make items drop less frequently if need be.

    This is a SWToR-ish design decision and I don't get it. It was mediocre at best in that game. I understand your goal, I just think you're shooting yourself (and the game) in the foot. Maybe if you could show us a loot table and percentages off a raid or dungeon boss, it might help further shed light on this subject.
    Sol likes this.
  16. Jeuraud

    Jeuraud Cupcake-About-Town

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    I don’t loot map, never have, never will; maybe because I started playing RPGs with dice, paper, and DMs; and those fricken DMs would never give you the cool stuff out of the DMG (Which I was not supposed to be looking at as a player.).


    Here is why I think EQ was more popular
    EQ Cover.png

    than Microsoft’s Asheron’s Call (UO pretty much killed itself with the PKing.).
    AC Cover.png

    Which of these is going to appeal to the largest number of Gamers (Computer and P&P) at the time?

    WoW is just a freak.
  17. BlindSear

    BlindSear Super Cupcake

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    To get away from *gets new piece, goes to internet, does what they say, get made fun of if they don't.*


    I don't understand what you're saying (exactly) here, but I think I agree.

    The stat priorities should be easy enough to understand your overall beneficial stats for your class/role, and that can be put up on a guide somewhere, but the last 10% of your dps (or performance) means you have to pull out that spreadsheet and calculator. Why let the guy do the same dps that spent 2 minutes looking it up on the internet, as the guy who spent 15 hours (over the course of days) perfecting his particular gear, and tailoring his build perfectly?

    This then forces players into a mold for stats. Which means the Devs have (more) control on possible builds. It also means that players can't roll on gear they're planning on putting chips into, because it will more likely be perfect for another person in the raid (or group). For example you have a 40 man raid, you have someone who can use the item as an overall upgrade for their gear as is (Player A), but will likely replace it in the future, and you have someone who could use it as a schematic but doesn't have the chips for it yet (Player B). This creates contention between the two players for the gear. On the other hand if the schematic and locked chips are perfect for Player B, but the other two chips are absolute garbage for both players, everyone's happy, even though Player A didn't get a chance at the loot, he didn't want it anyway.

    I think it's better to simply have some of the pieces being salvage pieces and some of them being schematic pieces, as long as the feel of the upgrades come fast enough. It can make for less loot drama in raids, and put the focus back on something else (as long as there's that something else to put focus on.)
  18. AnotherJaggens

    AnotherJaggens Cupcake-About-Town

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    Okay, fair point.



    15 hours, which could've been spent having fun. Why you don't like fun?



    It will happen one way or another. Well, except if they retire idea of chip salvaging and put them elsewhere. Or make them really easy to come by (cause chip on it's own have no implication without a schematic). Or make them effective independent of item or character level, just feeding on bigger power source and giving back more stats.
  19. BlindSear

    BlindSear Super Cupcake

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    Yay! :p

    Yah 15 hours isn't unreasonable to think about something, come up with a theory, go test it in game, refine theory go test it in game. It's real science with a virtual world. I think that's fun, as long as it gives you an edge of some sort. I think a lot would agree. I'm not saying you absolutely can't play your class without spending 15 hours on it, I'm saying if you spend more time on your class you'll be able to squeeze out the extra 10% performance from your gear. The people who really care about their dps could really enjoy the extra challenge of getting there, and a sense of accomplishment once they've done it. This is those "fun" chemicals in your head. Not suggesting 15 hour straight, an intermittent 15 hours with test times in between (I.E. doing content and gauging your results to get proper data.)

    For those that say, "meh, I don't really care about how the game works, I just want the answer." They'll still be able to perform, just not quite as well as those who put in the extra work. This seems to align with Carbine's model of Wildstar (at least for raiding). Instead of grinding out dailies, you spend time honing your skills and build. For those that don't want to raid, it's not gonna be necessary, you'll be fine for the content you're doing.

    Right, but designing a system to minimize loot drama is not a bad thing. If you make pieces that are just trash except the schematics and some other pieces that are just good for their chips, then you create some gear that's just well optimized, it creates more options, and less need for the one piece. Sure the one piece is the easiest and quickest option, but getting something with potential is comparably good, especially if the potential is higher than the well optimized piece. You can please more people at the same time, and have more pieces of loot drop off of each boss.

    Basically it means instead of only dropping 2 pieces from each boss (for a 10 man in WoW) that you know are perfect for 1 spec each, you could drop 5 pieces of CBC system items off of each boss. In the 2 piece drop, you either give someone an upgrade, a BiS, or it's disenchanted or sold. With the 5 pieces in the CBC system 1 piece will be a decent upgrade that'll stick around for a while, one or two will be schematics with high potential, and two or three will be salvaged for chips. Basically, if statistical odds of "critical failure" for loot go down, the number of pieces dropped also goes down. Having the variety allows the pieces that are generally garbage on their own to be salvaged for certain stats for all roles and classes, instead of just the one that the roulette said it's for.

    I think for the system to work the way it is now, the statistical likelihood of getting well optimized gear should stay relatively low, while the number of pieces of gear dropped from each boss should drastically increase. Something like half the raid size dropping off of each boss (this of course should be altered to balance the overall curve of 87% optimized at the beginning of a raid, and ending at 95% optimized at the end). This minimizes loot drama, gives people a real chance at using those potentially amazing items that need some tweaking, gives potential items to many players, and still gets some upgrades in the mean time. This also helps smooth out your RNG curve to fit whatever statistical curve the devs have tried to implement. It also takes the focus off of gear even more, as there's a bunch of drops, and you're statistically likely to get a couple pieces of something throughout a raid. Then, as the entire raid gets closer to optimization, their upgrades will naturally decrease.
  20. Virtual On

    Virtual On Cupcake

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    That is still going to happen.

    Except, instead of specific pieces of gear it will be with stat thresholds and chips.
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