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Circuit Board Crafting: Random Chips Discussion

Discussion in 'WildStar General' started by CRB_Gortok, May 11, 2013.

  1. Destrin

    Destrin Cupcake

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    It's not that complicated guys. It sounds a lot of fun and you will be able to customize gear to your exact specifications if you know what all the chips do and where to find or how to make items with lots of power. This is where crafters could play a major role in gear creation and might end up making some pretty intense stuff.

    IMO its a lot better than just upgrading gear with preset stats or making it too easy by just choosing which ones you want. I for one and really intrigued with this system and am looking forward to hand crafting and modding my gear extensively.

    As for bag space, you can always make a bank toon if you need more room. Or maybe chests inside your house? I am sure you will find a way to deal with your chips or Carbine will find a way to deal with one character wanting to hold a bunch of mats. They just need a bunch of feedback from the crafters, min/maxers, and theory crafters about the system, its components, it's icons, the distribution method, the abilities you can attach, and the end result.

    If Carbine is looking for more feedback from someone who would put some time into this, Destrin is available :D
  2. Jeuraud

    Jeuraud Cupcake-About-Town

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    There are also these chips,
    which have not been talked about yet, but if you look at this picture in the CBC Doc

    [​IMG]

    you can see a drop down menu with all of the chips you own that can be swapped into that position. It looks fairly straight forward to me.
  3. CRB_Gortok

    CRB_Gortok Carbine Econ Designer

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    Yes, you can change the threshold later on if you like. This may require a consumable to do.

    Yes we could put different ability types on the same chip, but I am not sure if we should do that. We dont want people to feel like they have to change the settings on all their items between every boss. Maybe this is something that we could do for raids for just tanks, but it is not necessarily fun for everyone to have to do.
  4. Absolute

    Absolute Cupcake

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    I did not play SWTOR, so I can not give you the correct information according this attempt to compare these two games in that fashion. By rightclicking the item, the cosmetic effect in Anarchy Online (AO) was then showing the chevron/badge of rank, floating above the character's shoulders.
  5. ZeroThaught

    ZeroThaught New Cupcake

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    Hey, I am extremely new here (hence the first post) and I didn't see this asked anywhere, so I thought I'd ask. Will you be able to PVP with gear you obtain through PVE? And if so, will it be comparable to PVP gear? One thing I LOVED about vanilla WoW is that you could raid and accumulate epic gear that would excel in PVP as well. Also, what are the differences in PVP gear versus PVE gear? Thanks for taking the time to talk to the community like this. It is definitely a vote of confidence for this game!
  6. Sawpaw

    Sawpaw Cupcake-About-Town

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    Alright, thankyou for the response, I was hoping this would be the case, because on paper its a bit of a nightmare to understand.
  7. Haversham

    Haversham Cupcake-About-Town

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    The way I understand it is that it's like gems in WoW, you can put new chips over old ones as long as it's not a fused/locked chip. Whether that means you have to search out an NPC to help you or level your skill in CBC is yet to be known.
  8. BlindSear

    BlindSear Super Cupcake

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    So, from what we've heard there will be PVP stats on gear, I don't remember what these stats do, I think damage and mitigation, but again I don't remember. The high end PVP gear will be gotten through doing PVP only, but, with the elo rating in place, your bracket will have the same feel, after a couple matches, of challenging PVP, whether you're a hardcore PVE-er or PVP-er or just want to try it out. (Since the elo system in Wildstar tracks both your gear and your "skill"). Basically, you like PVP a lot? Cool, you'll find your arenas and warplots to be similarly matched. You are the world first raider, and want to play some PVP before raid night? Cool, you'll find your arenas and warplots to be similarly matched.

    Not sure how lower end PVP gear works, I believe it's more random and is on vendors. PVP gear will give an edge with Battlegrounds and open world PVP though from what I've seen thus far. Though it would be interesting if PVP gear were somewhat limited in OWPVP to put the high geared players on par with Raid gear.
    CRB_Gortok likes this.
  9. Talek

    Talek New Cupcake

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    Raid gear shouldn't be comparable to PvP gear on PvP, because it's simply unfair to PvP players, unless it works either way (you can raid in high-end pvp gear on the same level as hardcore raiders)
  10. Virtual On

    Virtual On Cupcake

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    It should in open world.


    And in other facets it doesn't matter, because there is gear ELO along with skill ELO, basically.
  11. Ico

    Ico Moderator • WSC's Gentle Flower

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    That all depends on whether or not Carbine go with a pure PvP attribute, or if they just weight the two gear types significantly differently.
  12. BlindSear

    BlindSear Super Cupcake

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    It shouldn't in instanced PVP but it should in Open World PVP. This is because otherwise it will be a requirement for OWPVP creating an artificial barrier for players to engage in OWPVP. Skilled dedicated players should be rewarded by being able to do more damage in an open world area, whether it is for PVE or PVP. It's hard enough to get players to engage in open world PVP, and not just become a gank-fest for players who couldn't hack it in the top end of instanced PVP.

    The key to successful PVP is balance. This is especially true for high end PVP and open world PVP. Otherwise the less geared players never have a chance, so they will avoid other players like the plague. Making open world PVP relatively balanced so everyone has a chance at a fight makes it stay for longer and more natural.
  13. Nub

    Nub Cupcake

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    I'm not sure I understand what this system tries to accomplish

    I get the desire for designers to want to provide an endless treadmill, but is that something players actually want, especially in raids? I know I enjoy having found the "best in slot" item for my spec as it makes me feel like I've made progress towards winning an unwinnable game, at least until the next content patch. Removing the ability for me to reach an end point, even temporarily, feels like a cheap trick to keep me playing. Raiders want progress, and if chance is required to progress, expect the least lucky to become burned out quickly.

    Rewarding players with crappy items, a la Diablo, is a surefire way to drive people away from the game. It works in Diablo because you literally kill millions of monsters for loot. In a raid, you kill far fewer. Even the idea that dungeon or raid loot could be "rubbish" concerns me greatly. If the "jackpot" of a great roll is truly a bonus, in that the base item is still a significant upgrade, but the best rolls are a bonus on top of that, I can see that feeling more satisfying. See WoW's recent "Thunderforged" items which do this exact thing.

    More relevant to a broader audience is the complexity of this system. On one side, it's confusing enough at first glance that I'd imagine most casual players will be intimidated by it. There are folks who still don't know how to gem their gear in WoW and this is significantly more involved. I'm an expert gamer and I don't really get how a lot of this works when described to me in the article. That's a bad sign.

    On the other side, this system feels like something that will be automated via a mod in game, like WoW's reforging, so players can reach as many Attribute Milestones as is possible. If it can be automated, that's not interesting gameplay. Players don't end up making real choices unless those choices are exclusive or significantly alter gameplay. For a good example of this type of system see WoW's new talent system.

    I like the idea of the Ability Chips, but only if they provide significant game-changing abilities. The examples given, both on the item side and with Ability Milestones all seem pretty dull. 20% chance to do something, x second cooldown. Boring. Have a dozen of those things proccing all over the place and it goes from boring to confusing as hell.

    I look forward to seeing how this system changes as the game develops. In its current form it seems over-designed and over-complicated.
  14. Haversham

    Haversham Cupcake-About-Town

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    I believe Gortok has stated that he doesn't want there to be gear that no one wants because the randomization of stats was poor, which is why fused chips provide a way to focus the randomness. The important chips will be fused and will allow for class-specific gear and the non-fused chips will offer the mini game that is CBC. It minimizes the amount of randomness, creating a way to get gear that's anywhere from decent to great. That great gear may end up lasting you for a tier or two (potentially) while the decent gear is good enough to progress to the next tier of content.

    I don't think it's significantly more complex than some of the other in game stat systems out there. This is like WoW's reforging and gemming all rolled up into one. Sure it will take some getting used to, but once we get our hands on it in the early levels and it matures through our time in game, we will get used to it.

    Well, this seems like a perfect case of Dunning-Kruger to me. We have bits and pieces of information about the system, I would hope that if we were given the whole picture some misconceptions would be cleared up and others would make more sense. That being said, if you have first hand experience with Wildstar's CBC system and you still feel this way I apologize.
  15. Nub

    Nub Cupcake

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    Combining multiple simple systems into one doesn't make a streamlined system.

    With the exception of WoW's hit/expertise cap, or haste breakpoints, each of the WoW item/stat systems are easily understood by players on their own. Reforging stands out as the least elegant of Blizzard's design, almost requiring a mod to do the math to figure out ideal stat shuffling. In spite of that, even mediocre players can make sense of how to improve their gear because each path of progression is simplified.

    Do you have empty sockets? Put gems in to match the colors of stats you want!
    Do you have unenchanted gear? Throw an enchant on there!
    Do you have extra Valor points? Upgrade the item level!

    WoW's item systems provide incremental improvement in player performance without requiring significant planning or mathematical knowledge.

    One thing that has me concerned is both the item and stat system doesn't offer an easily understood goal to work towards. Specifically, if everyone benefits from each stat, how are players supposed to know which stat they benefit from most? If the classes support "gimmick" stat builds, that's great for the high end mix/maxer, but for the less hardcore gamer, as there's no easy way to know if they are opting for the correct stat.

    Ability Milestones sound like a way to motivate people to invest in various stats, but the ones shown in the most recent patch all are a collection of forgettable passives or procs and seem to lack a cohesive purpose, spreading damage, healing, and defensive bonuses across every stat in the game.

    So far, this sounds most like Anarchy Online's implant system; burdened with many potential choices and important thresholds to consider, but without any clear indicator if they're doing it right. For the min/maxer, it offers potential, but even for the experienced player, it might be too much to think about.

    I don't doubt it's simple enough to be understood with effort, but this isn't 2001. Gamers want to game, not create spreadsheets.
  16. CRB_Gortok

    CRB_Gortok Carbine Econ Designer

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    I appreciate the well thought out posts and the insight. Have you read the original CBC post that explains the system? You are looking at the system from the end, but a player will not be. This discussion is an analysis of the mature Elder Game realization of the system, not what a starting player is exposed to.

    The system is not intended to reward garbage. It is intended to give players choice of how to stat their items. Rather than giving exactly the same choice every time (which is actually not a choice, because you make the decision once and are done), the randomness adds variation to the item.

    If you look at any same slot, same tier raid gear in WoW, the designer created several non-optimal pieces of gear. One of them is the least worse (Best in Slot of you will), but if you could choose exactly how to spend your budget points on an item, you could create one much better if given the freedom. Part of the interesting aspect of gearing up is looking at these several pieces of gear and figuring out which is best. They all are similar, but some have slightly different stats on them, vary in the number of stats, or the percent of budget going to the stats.

    In CBC we can take the same subset of stats that are so valuable to a given class, spec or role, and we can put pick randomly between them to lock a couple into place. Now you have an item that is suboptimal because it has almost, but not quite right stats. The stats are not quite in the right order. Then we let you fix about half the stats. The system for doing so is really pretty simple and straightforward. It is not much more complicated than gemming.

    A lot of confusion occuring here is because I am talking about the design of the system, rather than the player-facing implementation. If I am talking about how the stats on items are chosen, and we go into complicated math about the chances of getting one configuration over another, this is something very few players will ever see. It doesn't matter to them. I will do my very best to hide all of the intricacies of these choices from the average player.
    Sonntam, Xorkrik, Haversham and 4 others like this.
  17. Jeuraud

    Jeuraud Cupcake-About-Town

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    I’ll be frank the first time I read the CBC Doc I felt like I was looking at one of those 3D picture puzzles; but one of the things I’ve learned over the years is that pretty much every technical doc I have ever looked at was that way… at first. As I read through this thread (Why the <REDACTED> is the paste tense of Read, Read?), with CRB_Gortok’s explanations, and read through the CBC Doc (a few times) the CBC system became clearer to me, just as a 3D picture puzzle does over time.

    I believe that once I get my hands on this system it will become almost intuitive, and fun, and unlike the Min/maxer or the Raider I do not need to get that one point of stat, thus I’m not going to need a spreadsheet to figure out what that one point is. All I care about as a Soloer is that I can defeat the MOB/MOBs that are beating on me. That is how I measure whether my skill, the skills I have chosen, and my gear are up to the task.

    Note; I’m speaking for myself as a Gamer… not for a group of people called Gamers.
    XPhiler likes this.
  18. Sabre070

    Sabre070 Cupcake-About-Town

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    About complexity - you only have to worry about it if you're top tier. If you're top tier you're going to be able to figure it out, it's not even that complex.

    Also, there will be calculators out before you even have access to the game. There are probably ones out now, or at least people making them.
  19. UNDERZZZZZ

    UNDERZZZZZ Cupcake-About-Town

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    With this in mind. Part of the interest of WoW raiding during a time was how some stats would be better than others are certain breakpoints. AP vs Agi for Assassination Rogues in T7. Or haste vs Arpen for combat rogues in WotLK. Will stat choices for classes in W* allow for some choice and different preferable stats for different gear sets. Or will one stat always be clearly the best with no option or other choice.
  20. Livnthedream

    Livnthedream Super Cupcake

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    With this much freedom I am far more worried about tuning than I am about getting the loot to begin with. Though the mostly pointless grind for grinds sake to reach bis is a pretty horrifying prospect.

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