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Circuit Board Crafting: Random Chips Discussion

Discussion in 'WildStar General' started by CRB_Gortok, May 11, 2013.

  1. Ellianar

    Ellianar Cupcake-About-Town

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    Well i think gear replacement over chip seems an appropriate action here :D


    As for the consideration of loot useless to everyone, i think we ll avoid this issue by armor types. Let me explain, we already know warrior wear heaby armor, stalker medium armor and both Esper and Spellslinger light armor ( i think assuming the 2 remaining class will wear heavy and medium armor is not too much ) then you got it, Esper need magic to dps and Wisdom to heal , Spellslinger need Dexterity to Dps and Wisdom to heal so i think you ll never see strengh or technology on it aswell as tank stats so there you go, with items usefull in a way to the class they aim toward.
  2. Khrusky

    Khrusky Cupcake

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    Just to quickly clarify before I respond more fully:
    No; clearly that would be absurd. I meant that you have the same item but with a random stat attached to it (vaguely similar to WoW's "of the wolf", "of the owl", etcetera system).

    The point I was trying to make was that it was a system that hewed to the BiS-esque all-or-nothing approach a little too closely for me, however after discussion with Bainik I realise that making the granularity of the quality of an upgrade coarser is a preferable approach to having items be too nebulous.

    Also, as a mathsy note, while there are 15,200 permutations of 40 items with 2 stats drawn from a pool of 20, there are 7,600 combinations, and considering that the stats on an item are not ordered pairs, I would assume that the latter is a more relevant figure? I admit I don't do this for a living so I could be wrong.
  3. CRB_Gortok

    CRB_Gortok Carbine Econ Designer

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    We have recently started playing Diablo 3 again in the Econ Office. They have made a ton of great improvements that make the game more enjoyable at end game. We started over at level 1 and instituted a new rule - no auction house. The game is super fun again. By level 30 we were having minor difficulty with some champ packs because our gear was sub optimal. We are around 45 now and We could literally increase our DPS by 6 times its current value in 10 minutes and 200k gold at the auction house.

    Yes, we plan to have unique items that come from specific sources. This will be part of the raid progression as well. These items will likely have some random stats on them as well.

    Either this system will be balanced around fights or fight will be balanced around this system, yes. Fights cannot be geared towards perfect gear, because that requires a statistically significant amount of time to aquire. But just running a couple dungeons until you have all blues wont be enough to make you "raid ready".

    WildStar is a more skill-centric game than some. In games like this, gear can be a crutch that helps players that aren't as strong. This is great, because skill players can complete content in a reasonable time, and the weaker players can keep running the stuff they can get to and will eventually be strong enough to move up.

    We will have to base our initial balance on statistical guesswork and then adjust it based on emperical data. That is going to take the form of "We expect you to do this set of content for 4 hours a night for 2 weeks to be able to progress. At that time we expect your gear to be X powerful" where X is some magical number that we conjure out of the ash of sacrificed rowsdowers. We can use that expected player power to adjust the difficulty of the dungeon. This will be done with math, followed by playtesting in what we think is appropriate gear.

    We are not likely to have beta testing of the Elder Game (EDIT for clarification: We will have testing, but it may not be open to everyone in the beta), so our guesses better be pretty good or players will either blow through the content or take an infinite amount of time to actually get good enough gear to beat it. Most likely it will be something in between - if we expect 80 hours of Veteran Dungeons for you to get to Tier 1 raiding, and instead people are doing it in 60 ... or 100.

    You said this much better than I did. I am going to use your explanation next time :p

    Just to clarify my meaning in advance: by perfect I mean it has the best possible roll on all chips that are locked. That's like to be at best 1/400, assuming there is exactly one chip that you want, out of 20 possible chips, and two locked slots. In practice, some of the chips will have a much lower weight and turn up less frequently, so probably less than 1/10000. If you get that perfect roll, it wont be game breaking, but that item may last you for more than just the current tier of raiding. Of course, you still have some dozen other slots to worry about or so.

    I believe that I have addressed this, but I will gladly address it again. If no one wants an item, then you can extract any of the unlocked chips out of it. These will have value, because that is what is required to customize the unlocked sockets on your gear. If none of the chips are needed, players can still salvage the item for crafting materials or a chance to get other rare chips. If the market says salvaging isn't worth it, you can always vendor it. I think these options are better than "Oh, another rogue piece dropped? DE I guess..."

    This is my expectation. You move on to the next tier of content when you become capable of doing it. "Perfect" gear is a pipe dream. There is always going to be something left to upgrade, but you want to be doing the content that gives you the best shot at upgrading.
    Yes, the question of who has priority for loot has become very complicated. I believe our system is (or will be) Need/Need for Chip/Greed. There are going to be arguments. Crit items can be good for healers or DPS, for example.

    Someone brought up a point I wanted to respond to, but I couldn't find it with a cursory search.
    Someone brought up the point that with this system, it makes it more difficult for players to know where to go to improve their items. They wont be able to consult a guide to find out where to go. This is an excellent point, something I am aware of. The flip side of this is that there will be multiple answer to where they can go, and they can choose the one they feel like doing instead of constantly running the same content over and over again.
  4. Jojin

    Jojin Cupcake-About-Town

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    I really like the idea of the randomized loot. Going along with the reference of Diablo, it was one of the things which did make running things over and over seem rewarding; there was always the anticipation of getting something really good.

    I see frequent mention of how this would effect the difficulty of specific dungeons or raids. With Wildstar, I don't think it will be as much of an issue because of how player skill has a greater impact on success.

    Many other MMO's damage, mitigation and healing is primarily determined by gear with a simple ability rotation; stand around in one spot and take or dish out damage/healing. In Wildstar however, position and movement have a massive impact of the effectiveness of such things. A player's ability has a big effect such as dodging telegraphs can offset the need for mitigation, landing all damage through good aiming can increase damage and with healing both aiming of the healer and awareness of the other players can increase healing.

    When skill can have a big impact on efficiency, gear isn't the main factor limiting progression and completion. In fact what it does do it set things up where if a group of players might be less skilled, they can do more preparation in terms of gear, to help compensate when attempting a challenge. Where those with more skill can attempt the same challenge sooner or with less gear.

    Lastly, because a player has a lot of impact on the character's abilities, random loot allows for more unique builds. Like a really skilled tank might option for more damage circuits or a DPS might throw on some defense if they seem to have problems dodging.
    Outlaw and CRB_Gortok like this.
  5. Khrusky

    Khrusky Cupcake

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    Are you saying that secondary stats are equally likely to occur on a random chip as primary stats? I had assumed that the (usually more useful) primary stats would occur more frequently.

    EDIT: okay apparently i had assumed correctly:
    Just to clarify the maths again (I have an exam in this tomorrow so whatever practice I can get is helpful!) as far as I could tell, the probability would be 1/100, as the order is irrelevant.
    So: 2 * (2/20) * (1/20), where the 2 represents whichever slot first, the 2/20 one of the two stats you want, it doesn't matter which for the first one, and 1/20 for the other stat.

    Possibly I'm just being pedantic, but the difference will be significant in the game if an item has a 1% chance of dropping rather than 0.25%. a 1% item has a 50% chance to be seen at least once during 70 drop chances, whereas a 0.25% item only has a 50% chance to be seen over 275 drop chances.
  6. Sabre070

    Sabre070 Cupcake-About-Town

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    I don't believe that stats are unique - so it'd be: 1/20 * 1/20 = 0.0025% (or 1/400)

    That is the chance to get the "best in slot" chip on any given item (given 2 locked slots). However like Gortok said - there will be common stats and uncommon ones, just like any other piece of gear.

    Of course, you'll have thresholds for each of your stats just like in WoW so if you have X amount of locked stats then you can itemize your unlocked slots to the other stats that you need (hit rating etc).
  7. Khrusky

    Khrusky Cupcake

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    1/400 is 0.0025 or 0.25%, sorry for my pedantry.

    1/20 * 1/20 is the chance to get one specific chip in both slots. If you wanted one specific chip, but didn't care about which slot it was in (and didn't mind if it was in both slots, or whether the chip in the other slot was rubbish) then it would be 1/20 plus 1/20 = 2/20 = 10%

    Multiplication of probabilities is an intersection of events (i.e. both events must occur), whereas addition is the union of those events (i.e. at least one of the events occurs). That I do know :D


    One thing I'm curious about is whether the system would stop players getting two of the same chip in both of the locked slots, and generally what restrictions there are on these possible combinations. More restrictions make more "coherent" item drops, but they also reduce the total pool of items, making BiS more feasible, which I think Carbine is trying to avoid.

    There are 190 combinations of 2 stats from 20, but without duplicates that goes down to 170, a reduction of 10%. Still not feasible on its own, but perhaps in aggregate with other restrictions.
  8. Ascary

    Ascary Cupcake

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    Thanks for taking your time to write this stuff down and responding to our questions Gortok. (On a sunday!)
  9. Sabre070

    Sabre070 Cupcake-About-Town

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    Oops, I misread that or just derped or something.

    I assumed since you're going for the best in slot scenario that you would want the one specific chip in both slots?

    Otherwise if one is good and the other is bad then it's the same as if they were both mediocre.
  10. Khrusky

    Khrusky Cupcake

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    I liked this system since I first heard of it, and while I've been considering others, I realise more that due to the necessity of discretisation that this system is probably a very good way of dealing with these challenges.

    I would like to know if even the best & rarest items in the game have locked in random stats too, as that could make the truly perfect version rare enough that maybe only one or two people on the server would have it (the probability of it dropping needing to be < 0.001% for this, in the simulations I did).
    It would kind of kill this chipping system if it was irrelevant for the core high-end gear. One could split it such that exceptionally rare gear had fixed stats, and there were random stats for the gear that was rare, but common enough to gear up with.

    I also saw that crafters can put random chips in schematics; will these have higher max stats than the fixed stat chips, or how do they fit into this system?
  11. Khrusky

    Khrusky Cupcake

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    Yeah, that's what I considered initially. The thing is that 1/20 * 1/20 means a 1/20 event, followed by another 1/20 event, in that order. If it doesn't matter which order these events come in (which I assume for the chips it wouldn't), then it would be 1/20 * 1/20 * 2 (for the 2 possible arrangements, so either you get AB or BA).

    If one also notes that for the first event, it doesn't matter which of the two chips that you want, you get (i.e. either A or B can be decided before the other), then the first probability is 2/20 (for either of the two chips), then followed by the other chip (now 1/20 probability; however possibly 1/19 if duplicates are prohibited). This then gives my calculated probability of 2/20 * 1/20 * 2 = 1/100
  12. Brexton

    Brexton New Cupcake

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    I think its amazing myself. I remember original D2 where rares had random affixes and uniques where secondary static affixes. It made trading much more exciting as bartering item for item was the status quo as each item's value depended on the play style of the character. Its downfall came with duping exploits, but it was still a very interesting time in the game.

    You guys are 100% correct about balancing issues with this (especially in PvP assuming those work the same?), but it is not terrible difficult to balance this after the fact, assuming people aren't terribly butt hurt about having their items 'tweaked' after they find them.

    I guess as far as drop chance goes, it does make it much more exciting to have such a small chance at a pristine rare stat affix on drops. There can exist a very grey area between junk stats and great stats. Lets be honest, if you got the pristine drop on every first attempt these items would just be vendored or salvaged every time anyways. you might as well as get some drama out of the process.
  13. Virtual On

    Virtual On Cupcake

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    See, now this is what I thought I read in the other topic.

    I'm glad.

    Perfect amount of RNG for longevity, without being too frustrating imo.
  14. Psistorm

    Psistorm Cupcake-About-Town

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    I think that problem can be somewhat alleviated by making class specific gear to a degree. Say, have light/medium/heavy. So a tank can't roll need on some healer cloth piece etc, and vice versa. Of course the other thing I would REALLY love to see is what I would call sensible stats.
    Diablo 3 had this bug for quite a while. You would roll, say, a witchdoctor mojo, and it would have +X to wizard skills on it. Completely ridiculous and stupid. But even now - to my knowledge anyways - those class items can still have the wrong primaries. Like a wizard staff with +STR, and other useless stats. I can understand that some items will be junk, but they should be junk because of poor stat amounts, not because of absolutely nonsensical stats.
    Meaning if say, wildstar has STR/INT/DEX and other base stats and some stats are considered main stats (like STR for warriors), then it would be somewhat nonsensical if a warrior sword dropped with plenty of INT on it. It would simply feel wrong for such an item to exist, and as such feel frustrating.
    So I suggest that items that are intended for certain classes can only roll stats that are at least borderline relevant to said classes, and perhaps are slightly weighted toward the more relevant ones.
    That way, you can still have bad items, but you won't have any of those "why would anyone create this" facepalm moments of class specific items with class specific stats for another class.

    That said, the system has great potential, and if balanced right, will certainly encourage people to stick around a while and gear, and also, perhaps talk to the resident master crafters for a few chips to slot into their gear, if chip crafting will be a profession. Certainly would be interesting to fill gaps or more, if those crafters become good enough to make endgame purples or whatnot for people.

    As for gearing for dungeons and raids, i think there will be a certain soft threshold. Like there is a medium sized gear band between minimum and optimal gear for content, meaning you will spend a reasonable amount of time going from gear that allows you to run content to gear that is strong for said content. Basically like going from your dungeon/daily purples in WoW to a half set or more of tier gear. Then there is a significantly longer climb to get the overly optimal gear, meaning say, a full set of tier gear, BiS in every slot in WoW. Only that there won't be quite BiS in W*, which is cool. So people can continue refining their gear setup.

    If done smartly, I really do believe this system can create much more of an item hunt than WoW could ever dream of, since you have a much greater margin to optimize and experiment in. And if you find another, better base item, the game starts all over and you'll be happy to increase your stats that little bit more if you are a min/maxer. So yeah, should be fun times ^^
  15. C1d0s

    C1d0s Cupcake

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    RNG Loot + Confusion of distribution / drop chance / random stat affixes = I was totally not digging any of this, especially after reading criticisms from a couple of the members of the forums; however, thanks to the rep's info I'm starting to become more familiar with the system they're trying to implement. This is why it's good to talk to your community! :D

    That said and done, I feel making PERFECT gear a pipe dream is probably for the best. Not only does it give those 1%ers the much-needed carrot on a stick, but also seems to benefit the casuals by trivializing the apparent need to hoard gear in an attempt to play catch-up.

    I'd still like to see this type of loot generation in action, but I suppose that will have to wait! ( I still think it'd make a great Dev Speak, just saying! )
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  16. Grohmm

    Grohmm Cupcake

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    I really like this system of random stats, in order to optimize your gear with theorycraft. Speaking during hours and hours with your friends on teamspeak, with the guildmates of your class etc.. It has a perfect place in a MMO. But my major concern about this random stats from chips is the number of loots per boss, especially in 40men raid. By the time of wow vanilla, there was 2 drop for 40 people and it was awful. Now there is 5-6 drops per boss for 25 in WoW and we are geared too quickly.

    But with your system, you're going to absolutely have a large amount of drops per boss in 40 men raid. Mainly because the drops are not best in slot!! So, if you have 8-10 drops per boss, it's not going to be too much, because everyone will need the loots for optimisation.

    Another precision about your system. I assume that blue gear would have less stats than epic gear, on the chips ofc. But how about legendary items? Is this the exception of your system? Like a one and unique legendary item like thunderfury (this item litteraly kept me playing MC every week during all Vanilla, then during Wotlk and cataclysm with my deathnight, until i'd be able to craft it :) ). Seriously, a legendary item makes the raid a little bit more epic. And it binds the guildmates around a loot for the guild and not for a selfish purpose.

    Also, it's great to see that we can improve our gear in dungeons. Because between the raids, especially during the beginning of the "progress", we want (hardcore and maybe casuals) to have something to optimize your gear after the raid (past midnight) or during the day.

    Another concern is about the name of the items. Keep a unique name for an item. Because it's more epic to talk directly about an item everyone knows, like bloodfang helm or Askhandi than the greater sword of the forgotten bear/wolf/owl/dolphin. A unique name even if the stats change. Maybe just a text which specifies as the optimization of the item in terms of percentage. Because, when we inspect the other best "insert your class" of the other competing guilds, we want to know by just a quick look if he has a better item.

    In conclusion, I am glad to see that the developers come to talk in detail about their passion on subjects as sensitive and core-related of the game and that they seek from their players (fan / hardcore / experimented / casual) to answer some of their questions.
  17. Jojin

    Jojin Cupcake-About-Town

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    The presented system will have specific locked slots. With such, especially on items with locked unique ability chips, names can emphasize the unchangeable aspect of an item. For example an item chipped with a unique ability similar to the monster they dropped from, maybe named after such a monster.

    Also if the item's name has a prefix and suffix, then naming conventions can also be used to describe aspects of the item similar to how it was done in Diablo.
  18. Furor

    Furor Cupcake

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    Wrong. Unless you have perfect stat balance across all classes, there will always be a BiS. You may not have the statistically-aligned players in beta right now parsing every last bit of gear and running them through 1 million simulations to find the best stat allotments now, but when you release this will happen regardless of whether or not you want it to. Since I've yet to see any game have perfect stat balance (WoW Example: STR = Crit = Haste = Mastery = Hit = Expertise), I'm just going to assume that you will fail as well for various reasons.

    As a hardcore player, as a person who is familiar with min-maxing, systems that rely upon random factors without proper avenues to circumvent them are anathema to my enjoyment. There is nothing more frustrating to a hardcore player than RNG. If you think RNG is "cool", you aren't part of the skilled hardcore player base. One of your devs even stated it at one point - that truly skilled gamers hate RNG. I'm one of those people that abhors unnecessary RNG with every fiber of my being.

    There are good reasons for thinking twice about this, or providing an alternative system that's more deterministic:

    1. Competitive raiding is diminished when your progress relies upon a string of random variables. It would be akin to two guilds facing the same boss, but the boss has random abilities - one raid gets the "easier" version and subsequently kills it, the other gets a harder version and may not even get loot that week. There isn't anything fair or equitable about this situation, and since it isn't, there's really no way to force real competition. Finely-tuned encounters suddenly become impossible for the guild that got bad loot drops for a month.

    2. If you want your raids to be truly difficult and directed towards hardcore players, then making them finely-tuned is pretty much a number 1 priority. The randomness of loot will impact the subjective difference between guilds progressing.. which will result in predictable cries of rebalancing content. People will feel that they've been screwed by the game, not by their relative skill levels. If it's too easy (such that any decent loot will suffice), the guilds that got 'perfect' loot will roll over it (because despite how random something may be, the distribution of that randomness is only guaranteed as a consideration of the whole - not on small parts like a guild, who can all feasibly get lucky one night and get perfect gear). If it's too hard, then only the groups with amazing luck will progress. If you cannot see how this will turn out.. then you aren't thinking this through very well.

    3. The problem of RNG is related to what I said above: that you can only count on your percentages when taken as a snapshot of the whole. On a subjective, personal level, RNG can feel very discriminatory and antagonistic to a player. I've felt it, and I'm sure many others have as well. You see one player getting perfect rolls on all of his loot in a single week, or getting a straight string of upgrades on an item without fails (TERA), while you're left rolling in the muck even despite putting out more effort to acquire your gear than the other guy. You're left with *less power* than someone else who put in *less effort*, simply because of RNG. That does not encourage competitive behavior or conditions.

    The fact is, someone, somewhere, will get virtually every item rolled perfectly. And when they do, they will be set. Depending on how your economy functions, it will also give them an undue advantage. Suddenly, he can sell all of his drops. He can make money. That money then turns into a dominant function of the market, and before you know it, you've got a significant distortion. Meanwhile, there will be people out there that suffer through every drop with horrible stats, are forced to go to the AH or whatever crafting is involved, and dump countless amounts of currency into upgrading their items. They will be unable to participate as an otherwise equal member of the economy, and will grow to despise the game if only just because the random factors haven't been subjectively in their favor. Objectively, you'll see the RNG "working". But for every player, they will experience something different. Some good, some bad. But all of it outside their control - and thus a feeling of helplessness for those with less good luck, and a feeling of superiority for those with it.

    That, to me, is not a system that fosters competitive behavior between equally-skilled players. They'll just point to their random factors as reasons for failure. They'll say X player is only good because they were lucky. They'll say they only lost because they were unlucky. Etc. In the end, your raiding/PvP will suffer, and you'll eventually be forced to make some drastic change. Too much RNG is only a bad thing, and from what I've read, that's what it seems like.

    An MMORPG is not meant to be like Diablo 3 or Path of Exile. We already have those. If we want a bunch of random drops and loot farming, those games already exist.

    The game doesn't need random loot to be interesting and enjoyable. If you want WildStar to have a competitive high-end scene, you will most certainly have to tone down the RNG significantly.
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  19. pseudo

    pseudo Podcaster

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  20. Virtual On

    Virtual On Cupcake

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    I agree with virtually everything here, but I also understand that RNG is a needed function for longevity, and in moderation is very acceptable.

    We, as hardcore players, already accept the RNG of drop-rates. It took me months of HK to get my trinket off of Garau. Other guilds got many, some got none. On the other hand, I got 2 Legendary Daggers within weeks of first downing Akylios.


    However, what I will say is that the more RNG you have, the longer the content needs to last. However, it can't last indefinitely because then that creates a stagnation between content.


    There needs to be a fine balance between RNG, content, and tuning.

    As I said in the other thread, random stat values is wrong in an MMORPG. I'm glad that this thread was posted to coincide with my thought, as that would have been a literal deal breaker to me.

    However, they are implementing a second level of RNG compared to just drop-rates, but they also have a system in place to alleviate it(DEing for circuits to put in the piece you really want). I think, depending on how it's all tuned, this is a great system to bolster the longevity of the system.


    Rift was my first raiding MMO, so that's all I can comment on, but a lot of gear ended up being trash. You had specific drops you wanted, and in the end of HK for a top-guild, it ended up just being trinkets/legendaries. Everything else was, literally, trash, because you either already had it or something better(legendary from tokens). Wildstar put in more RNG to alleviate this, but also a system to help prevent it through DEing staying a useful path to take. Who wants the deflect/wis/mag crit% chest? No one, so DE it and get the mag crit% to someone who can use it for a piece that already rolled good set slots. It's still useful.

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