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Circuit Board Crafting: Random Chips Discussion

Discussion in 'WildStar General' started by CRB_Gortok, May 11, 2013.

  1. AnotherJaggens

    AnotherJaggens Cupcake-About-Town

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    Alright, let's do it.

    You are saying that what matters is schematic and how it allocates it's power. I'm worried about items not being those items like:
    Now you of course going to counter that there are fused chips, at least one per item. How big those fused chips are compared to overall power? Is a fused chip enough to make an item have at least some base affinity for certain archetype to start from, or are they all random in raid drops too?
  2. Ahov

    Ahov New Cupcake

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    Historically, raids have a few early bosses which are tuned around having BiS from previous tier content, and the more difficult bosses are actually tuned around having gear from that raid. It doesn't make it impossible, but more casual guilds NEED the gear upgrades to clear it while the hardcore guilds will optimize their composition and strategy to kill the boss.

    The raids will be tuned around the hardcore guilds, so I expect something similar. Gear has rarely played "that" much of a factor in games; it's generally just an excuse for failure. Min-maxing a few rolls on the gear probably isn't going to make the difference when the variance is small.

    Example: Matriarch of Pestilence from the Endless Eclipse raid in Rift

    This fight was brutally difficult for anyone putting in their first few days on her. Many people claimed it was impossible given current gear levels, but slowly people refined their tactics and positioning to minimize her incoming healing, which allowed for relatively easy kills.

    TL;DR - Hardcore guilds will not need bis gear to clear content. Casual guilds probably will
  3. kiri

    kiri Cupcake-About-Town

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    This sounds excellent, thank you for sharing.

    I think some of the criticisms in this thread are off base - they obviously aren't going to be balancing things around full-BIS items, but likely statistically "average-ish" ones. If BIS items are 1/400, it would take the average guild YEARS to get BIS raid gear (assuming lockout), do you really think they would tune things expecting that? Theoretically some raids will get better allocations than others, but that is true of any existing RNG loot system.

    As for RNG in general, it can be frustrating in the short term but it is so much more satisfying in the long term compared to something like a token system. Knowing that you have to run X dungeon Y times to get your payout feels so boring and grindy to me - the RNG aspect is just a lot more exciting (maybe I'll get this awesome thing on my first run!) even if it is occasionally frustrating.

    Assuming it's balanced right (and it sounds like it will be) this system sounds awesome, you never feel like you HAVE to have BIS because it is so statistically improbable, but that small chance is still very alluring. It's also a great way to keep old content fresh - you might be begrudgingly running your buddy through some old content, but hey maybe BIS-item-X will drop this time.

    I'm glad to hear the thoughts on Diablo 3 as well. That is probably the single reason that I lost interest in it. One of the biggest draws of D2 was the item hunt, and D3's auction house completely squashed that. You could never hope to discover in-game what you could find in 2 minutes on the AH.
  4. Inukeu

    Inukeu Well-Known Cupcake

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    cant wait to find one locked chip with a high primary stat that I want and then just craft the rest as best as I can im really looking forward to seeing the chip system work in crafting gear with salvaging components and chips from others I bet I could make amazing things eventually when I get a good locked in primary stat to start from with a high amount of power to use as I see fit
  5. Daktarelis

    Daktarelis New Cupcake

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    I think it is clear from the description that items can be described as having a part of fixed and randomized stats and a part that is customisable. So, in essence, this latter part will always be filled with the best stat possible, while the former part will depend on luck. I wonder, how the stat budget will be divided between the two parts. It will greatly affect the overall design. If the majority of stats are contained in the locked random chips, luck will play a large part. Even if, say, the chance to get a BIS stat distribution in the locked slots is less than 1%, I wonder what the chance to obtain an item that has at least 90% of power of the BIS one will be. I imagine this chance will have to be rather high, in order to maintain a reasonable level of gear disparity among players raiding the same tier. This implies that either the random part will be comparatively small, or each class will have multiple stats (half or more of the total stat types) that are at least somewhat effective for them.

    I wonder if the chips power will increase with each raid, or will they be more like WOW gems? If it's the former, it would be a great system to allow returning players to catch up to current content. If the stat distribution on gear is like 10% random/ 90% chips, returning players can just buy new tier chips off the AH and have good enough gear to raid current content, without actually having better gear than people doing the current content. No need to nerf previous tier to oblivion, or introduce dungeons that drop gear on par with previous raids.
  6. Kalmander

    Kalmander Well-Known Cupcake

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    Thanks for the post, helps a lot, and I like the way you think :) Wildstar seems to be going in a really good direction.

    I had the same problem with Diablo 3. Ended up playing the AH instead of the game, and that was not good. If we can get a nice middle point between the all static items (like WoW) which can get stale, and the all random items like Diablo (which also have problems), then we will have a nice system. Semi-static items with a possible range of variation sounds good.
  7. UNDERZZZZZ

    UNDERZZZZZ Cupcake-About-Town

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    I really don't think anybody who really wants to optimize/the people that don't care about others needs will use the 'need for chip' option. I think unless there is a system in place to counter this, most people will just click need to enhance their chances regardless of the stats. I know I would
  8. nomotog

    nomotog Cupcake-About-Town

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    I'm a tad worry this might make picking loot a little too complicated. You have to not only look at the stats an item has, but the stats it could have and because items are random you can't really just pick the item that looks like it's made for your class. Is there going to be a way to do this quickly? Will I have to peek at the board of every item I find to see if their is anything I want on it?

    Then what do we get with this complexity?
  9. Jojin

    Jojin Cupcake-About-Town

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    This isn't an issue of randomness and the chip system. It is an issue of a player's respect and consideration of others. Even with specific items people will still need to sell it, break it down or use on an alt. The solution is to choose not to play or socialize with those type of players.
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  10. Jojin

    Jojin Cupcake-About-Town

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    If you have an idea of what you are looking for, then it should be an non-issue.

    Consider this, your a healer who likes Critical on items. So if an item drops with power and critical totals higher than what you currently have, then it's an upgrade. If it has defense and some other stats, then obviously it isn't what you want.

    It's not a complicated system in regards to knowing what's good for you. It does require a player be aware of what he or she desires in terms of gear stats. This will most likely be learned as you play, through quest rewards and other systems which give you specific selections tailored to your class.
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  11. UNDERZZZZZ

    UNDERZZZZZ Cupcake-About-Town

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    My point is there will always be these type of players, and leaving it down to the community to 'decide who they want to play with' is an easy way to concede an issue that should actually have a counteracting system in place. In a random PUG where nobody has a choice who they play with, do you honestly think everyone is going to play nice? What are these people supposed to do? Get their socializing gear on and find 4 friends that will run dungeons with them because the system means their loot can be unfairly taken?
  12. Batzorig

    Batzorig Cupcake-About-Town

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    Alright, was thinking some more, and another potential downside of this system came to mind.

    On the one hand, I like the idea that you can approach lots of different dungeons/raids and be surprised with gear that is good for you, that you didn't see coming. That sudden rush sounds great. But how difficult will it be to try and figure out, on the spot, if an drop will be an upgrade for you?

    So some boots drop, and they've got a hefty amount of crit. You like crit, it's one of the best stats for your class/role. But it's also got dodge rating in a slot that can be switched out, and Moxie in another locked slot. Moxie is sort of meh for you, but it's not useless or anything, and dodge is no good. Just on a cursory inspection, having no prep when thinking about this specific item in relation to your class, you think you can wrangle it into an upgrade. But is the system complicated enough that people could often make mistakes during a snap judgement? Will people often be needing on stuff that might be an upgrade (more a PUG problem)? Or will making these kind of complex multi-variable gear decisions on the fly be one of the strong requirements of being a Raider or dungeon-runner?

    EDIT: Totally missed Nomotog's post that had the same though. Derp.
  13. nomotog

    nomotog Cupcake-About-Town

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    I'm a ninja. :p

    Though my biggest worry is the last part of my post. I don't know if this system will fix the best in slot problem. In this system you still have a best in slot. You have the potential best in slot and then the best of what I have. There is still little choice in picking your loot.
  14. Hurrnia

    Hurrnia New Cupcake

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    I like that you came here and posted very nice read, thnx. One thing I feel is missing in some of the newer games, like for instance I raid in rift, and yes the itemization is pretty horrible in SL but also I find the lack of cool special items that do something not found anywhere else in game weird to me, it makes the re-playability of an instance/encounter grow a ton. Mounts is the most common one, given usually after an achievement or something a long those lines. But I'm talking make it go even further, where its something very sought after but not common, like a clicky w/ a 2min cd that has some amount of absorption, or some kinda almost too powerful buff, maybe a clicky that gives a teleport, or maybe a item that has staying power, a ring or something that doesn't become useless for several tiers.

    I know there is balance issues here but, if you look at say DDO, which I know people have limited experience in general (was my first MMO love) I haven't played it after its expansion but I know we were running the first raids they put into the game, like 5 years after they were released because of items like this. Many new raids, AND even new difficulties had been released. BTW while DDO is a very casual friendly raiding game, and had some serious instancing issues and zero good pvp, you literally never just sat somewhere doing nothing, you always had something you were after and could put an effort into finding.

    But there was also OTHER special items in dungeons or in the world that were special like that as well, like I mentioned the teleport, well there was a mask in one particular dungeon you could get it. There was a specific ring that would regen an amount of mana that dropped off a rare, and so on. And it was fun, kinda min-maxing the runs as well, you would perfect your little farm runs and -push it to the limit one more time and it definitely had that oh wow moment when you finally got that item, that did something not found anywhere else.

    So I guess I'm saying and not with much authority on the subject just my meager experience, make a good overall system, but maybe utilize the above tool as a way to create some items that are super rare and sought after for the uniqueness they offer to the player.
  15. Batzorig

    Batzorig Cupcake-About-Town

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    I think it hinges on how effective the Limited Action Set and Milestones are at allowing diversified builds. I think you have it right that there's always a BiS for a build, but if builds are a more customized, nebulous thing, there will never be BiS for a class and role.

    As an example, a weapon drops with locked Moxie chip (Sorry, Moxie is my favorite confirmed stat in this game, so I always use it in examples). The way your build is set up, you don't get a lot of benefit from Moxie. However, if you did put the item on, it would open up a milestone that gives you some bonus (Bonus X for the time being). Bonus X helps your build a little, but if you switched two of your damage-dealing powers out for different ones, it would help more. On top of that, there's a power that scales amazingly with Moxie, so it's now a strong choice to go on your action bar if you take this item. In this way, it's a two-way street. How you play can determine what gear you look for, but what gear is available can tailor how you build and play.

    We may see situations in which people look for these odd builds that are still effective in order to get better shots at gear. If no one in your 40 man raid wants any Moxie, switching to a build that utilizes it will suddenly open up new gear choices to you, gear that other players don't want, and therefore you can obtain a strong set more easily than if you were competing strictly for crit gear or haste gear.
  16. Xo1o

    Xo1o Cupcake

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    (Apologies if I'm repeating someone else, I didn't read all of the posts)

    I talked about this thread with a friend and he said he would be concerned that people would rarely pass on items (because of minor upgrades everywhere or rare chips in the item etc.).

    My personal concern is mostly that I don't like useless gear drops. Even if I don't get an item after killing a boss, it's not so bad if it was profitable for someone else in the group. If no one got anything useful however, because garbage dropped, that always kind of bugs me (garbage = stat combos no one needs and item has little other value).
  17. herbalz

    herbalz Cupcake-About-Town

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    I think the right balance for this system is gonna be somewhere in between path of exile style loot drops, or torchlight2. I know I reference that game a lot but I really enjoy the customization in that game. there are npc's for enchanting, reforging, resocketing ect and in path of exile I like how they have drops that increase weapon armor or damage by 2 percent at a time, or orbs that give you a chance to create a random new affix.

    the big problem with diablo 3 was the pacing mostly, it felt as though legendaries were a chore to find and where the only goal you aimed for, leaving me with subpar gear for most of my journey. Where as in torchlight 2, you might get a legendary for level 10 that would last several levels. that's the kind of thing that reminds you of the carrot on the stick in my opinion, getting rare things even at low levels and allowing the player to modify everything the way they want. hell they even have an orb in path of exile to upgrade a normal item into a rare one...if wildstar can do something like that then "junk loot" might have more of a purpose
  18. Demosthenes

    Demosthenes Cupcake

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    This concerns me quite a bit. I have seen many MMO's have a less polished end-game on release. Basing the Elder Game on intelligent guesses hasn't proven to be enough as it seems to be a consistent method for developing the end-game. A lot of time people will see the obstacles needed to get max level from a new game and assume it will take a long time. However it has been witnessed otherwise where it was thought to take a long time but took a non-minority amount of people a short time to reach the max level.

    This also happens with the end-game. Content releases and there is a lot to it. Now, the top minority of players often finished the hardest content within 1-2 months (in more recent years). I even remember during WoW's WotLK expansion, Kel'thuzad was defeated very quickly. I believe 3 days after the expansion released. In other games, or expansions to those game, the end content was easily achieved and even pugged due underestimating how fast content could be 'finished'. When it comes to a point where the large player base eventually beats the the new content earlier than expected, players are left with nothing to do since the developers and artists cannot roll out enough content fast enough.

    My concern is that this can be repeated. If enough testing about the Elder Game isn't done, then it leaves a lot of potential for failure. I am assuming that the alpha team will be testing the Elder Game, which is good, but even that has proven to leave room for hazardous consequences since the amount of alpha participants are usually small in comparison to beta participants. Unless I am overlooking something, I think based on the current method of developing and testing the Elder Game, it would be best to make things too hard rather than too easy. Underestimating players has been a huge mistake especially when a game releases. Also, nerfing content, assuming, is just as hard as buffing content. With things being weaker, you cannot and should not do a roll back, taking away players achieved items to the easy content. If things were hard, you could just say "My bad" and make it a bit easier. This is of course my opinion. I do not want to fight something unstoppable or completely RNG based for anyone assuming.
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  19. CRB_Gortok

    CRB_Gortok Carbine Econ Designer

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    Lets do some Math! (please skip this post if you don't care about probability and statistics)
    So as not to over-complicate, I glossed over some details. If you were to assume there are 20 possible chips and that it only matters what chip comes out (order doesn't matter), and you can't roll the same chip twice, then the odds would be more like:
    1/20*1/(20-1)*2, which comes out to 1 in 190.

    In actuality, laying out all the data for a good probability would look more like:
    The best pick for the 30% socket is a Tech+Deflect chip, which has an individual chance of 2% chance of being rolled.
    The best pick for the 20% socket is the Stamina+Armor chip, which has a 5% chance of rolling, except we have to remove the Tech+Deflect, Tech+Health, pure Tech, etc from being rolled because you can't roll the same base chip twice. Maybe that puts us up to 7%.
    This comes out to .02*.07 = .0014, roughly 1/700.

    Of course, this is all made up data where I again glossed over slightly less information. The set of fused chips does not necessarily come from the same selection, and order absolutely matters - both the order in which they are rolled and the order in which they are placed.

    Lemme give you a very simple example (all these chips have the same weight in this example):
    Socket A: 1 Random Chip can roll Deflect or Technology.
    Socket B: 1 Random Chip can roll Technology, Health, or Moxie.

    Let's say you want Tech in Socket A and Moxie in the Socket B.
    • If you roll socket A first, then you have a 1/2 chance of rolling Tech as desired, which would then mean you have a 1/2 chance of rolling Moxie as desired in Socket B because Tech was removed from the roll. That is a cumulative chance of 25% chance to roll Tech/Moxie.
    • If you roll Socket B first, you have a 1/3 chance of getting Moxie, and in Socket A still a 1/2 chance of getting Tech first. So now you only have a 16.7% chance of rolling perfect.
    Yes, I use probability and statistics in my day job!
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  20. herbalz

    herbalz Cupcake-About-Town

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    I just read the diablo patch notes lol they buffed like everyones dps and heals. I do enjoy the monster power sytem and whatnot but why do wizards have to have the ugliest looking gear lol okay so back to this...hmm..i thought wildstar was gonna test endgame stuff extensively before release but I suppose I was misinformed! I guess since it will take months to get all the way to end game even for most, so I hope that gives the dev team ample time to switch focus over to endgame once the game has launched

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