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Circuit Board Crafting: Random Chips Discussion

Discussion in 'WildStar General' started by CRB_Gortok, May 11, 2013.

  1. herbalz

    herbalz Cupcake-About-Town

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    I swear, this game has all the best features of a mmorpg, the loot system of an arpg, and the adventurous exploring of an oldschool platformer. it's like a culmination of all my favorite things lol I think I shed a tear :oops:
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  2. Crucifer

    Crucifer Cupcake-About-Town

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    I wrote about this a bit in my post but I do not like the concept of 16,000 permutations, that means that the desired item you need may never drop in 16,000 runs. What is the point of that besides making it feel trivial. That just seems like a horrid design choice.

    WoW Had an early level system where items could have a few (very tiny) variations of their gear...an example:

    http://www.wowhead.com/item=15339

    these pieces could come in a max variation of the listed random enchants, however when they could scale down by -1 or -2 per stat. So you could get a perfect +8 +8 but you could also get the more likely +6 +8 or +7 +8.

    So you the amount of rarity is no where near 16,000 but it is still a variation. HOWEVER as a former twink who had to get perfect pieces of these sets and the perfect versions being a 0.0000000000001% change of dropping off random mobs at random times on random loot tables. SUCKED. It took DAYS of spam farming the same boring instance (literally) 300+ times. And that is terribly dull.

    I also said in a prior post a Vindictus/Dragon Nest style weapon system is my personal favorite (yet hasn't been done 100% right in an MMO) which is to have Flat Stats on weapons but the weapons can be upgraded through crafting. (WHICH I THINK HELPS MAKE CRAFTING NOT SUCK AND BE A WASTE OF TIME IN MMOS)

    +1 +2 +3 system allows you to enjoy getting your loot but also allows you to then through doing OTHER questing objective increase the awesomeness of your sword. This system gives reward not to FARM something a million times but to be rewarded for continuing to play the MMO.

    Think ThunderFury in Vanilla WoW....you get the two pieces in MC does not mean you get the sword now you need to craft the sword. So you go through a huge quest chain of crafting quests to get the legendary weapon. Nothing feels so awesome when you complete that weapon to max stats.

    This kind of system has not been done as a STANDARD system in MMOS but in my opinion is hands down the most rewarding reward system for looting statistical gear.


    Then there is my new post on damage numbers on gear here that I think Carbine needs to adhere too if at all possible:

    http://wildstar-central.com/index.php?threads/vanilla-wildstar-elder-game-damage-caps.3142/
  3. Sabre070

    Sabre070 Cupcake-About-Town

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    I believe that some chips may be bound to character and others not. There will definitely be some (most?) that are able to be sold/traded - as they can be crafted.

    Not sure exactly what you mean by this.
  4. Sabre070

    Sabre070 Cupcake-About-Town

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    Please read the thread before posting. He has covered some if not all of your concerns.
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  5. Seagrey

    Seagrey Cupcake-About-Town

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    If I wanted to trade a chip with another player...is there a way to trade items...even chips.
  6. Sabre070

    Sabre070 Cupcake-About-Town

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    Oh yes - it'd be treated the same as any other trade able item. (think of Armor Kits and Embroidery from WoW)
  7. AnotherJaggens

    AnotherJaggens Cupcake-About-Town

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    Bear with me on this one: permutations are irrelevant. You are looking at wrong thing. Unlocked and replacable chips are irrelevant too for not a long time. What matters is Power pool and Fused chips.

    Fused are dictating what an item is good for. They are there to guide us whenever this item is for tanking, healing or pew-pew-pew. There maybe some variation in what you get from drop, but a Stormtalon Cloak of Badassery will always be for tanking no matter what variation dropped. And that is at least 30-40% of stats, which is enough to define item.

    Then you have a pool of power and playfield for how you want to make rest of stats, that will compliment you and fused chips on Stormtalon Cloak of Badassery.

    It's not random. It has bounds of what may happen, but you can always predict it, and rest is what you will do with it.
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  8. AnotherJaggens

    AnotherJaggens Cupcake-About-Town

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    Hello, dear raider.

    Of course you roll for this item! Don't you remember that you have NOT FUSED chips with Block Chance in your Dirty Socks of Tank and Nerdy Glasses of Spank? Now you have same value of Block Chance already fused in Stormtalon Cloak of Badassery, so you better replace those with something useful.
    Now go slap some bosses, you silly goose!

    I'm so bored, sorry.
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  9. kur1

    kur1 Cupcake-About-Town

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    Thanks for the replies Gortok, it means a lot!



    Agreed, players will need another lens. The issue is, you're proclaiming to design/tune around the 1% for the 40-man endgame. Suddenly these RNG-infused items affecting the progression race and player psychology. Is it really a different lens? Was this lens not tested in WoW pre-reforging and deemed to be a failure?

    What exactly in W* endgame content makes RNG something to be embraced by people who will depend on loot to be competitive? How much of a power disparity do you suspect will be created?


    I was more working off the assumption the tank didn't want it, thus it was offered to the DPS. What do you mean about 'extracting the tank stat chips'? I was referring to the locked stat pieces, as that RNG would ultimately make an item 'undesirable'.


    Do you have more information to share about the drop rates? How many pieces are currently estimated to drop off end-game dungeon/raid bosses to account for the fact some items are expected to be salvaged?

    If there's a 40-man raid and 10-12 items drop (50% salvage-item rate), then no problemo. But if RNG can result in all 10-12 items being salvage items, or only 4 items drop and 2 are deemed usable... I foresee problems. Data would be helpful here, even if there's a beta disclaimer attached.


    I like how you're fixing the issues created by WoW's narrow drop system for certain weapons/armors. That's good to hear. Daggers and healing plate always make a raid cringe, especially smaller raids. :p

    What's the stat mix going to be anyway? Will there be stat distinctions between casters and melee? Or are stats differentiated by role (damage/tank/healer)?


    If this is the design philosophy, I like this a lot. I like having a lot of places to go for an upgrade (and a chance to win the item). So assuming there are indeed 6+ places to get an upgrade, rather than 1-2 bosses, that's heartening to hear. Especially if RNG ends up being a factor on gear.

    Mapping out content is important inasmuch as people generally like to know where to focus their queues/groups. Albeit it would be equally refreshing to have every instance be viable so you don't have to convince your group to do X vs. Y dungeon. So kudos for figuring that out. It's been a major problem in early endgame in the past.


    In practice, it's usually seen that having too large a drop table isn't really so much "flexible" as it is frustrating. You can't get something to drop for weeks on end because a bunch of other roles' items keep dropping because of the massive loot table. Some weeks will be RNG in your favor, other weeks RNG in their favor. Gearing becomes uneven.

    Add onto that substituting people for bosses becomes more difficult. You could argue "merit/skill dictates who's brought", but if you have amply skilled people in your roster then it becomes "bring whoever needs gear more" or "bring who hasn't killed this boss yet". Killing more bosses actually means sitting moreuntil your bench accumulates gear. The fact there's RNG drops and "loot flexibility" kills the ability for class leads and raid leaders to effectively bring members in and out. It also punishes the heavily geared. Can you offer insight on how you'd be tackling this issue?


    It's less that I care if I can use the item, it's trying to wrap my head around how a progression raid will gear itself. If it's little-by-little with marginal stat increases due to RNG drops, alright. But how do you balance the endgame around this? What is the expected endgame performance level? How much will gear determine whether you can beat bosses?

    A lot of this really depends on your endgame boss design philosophy, which hasn't been fleshed out yet.


    I more brought up D3 because you brought it up. :p D3 has tons of items drop, so much so that any given player will have to return to sell/ID items 3-4 times in a given Act, thus RNG is less of an issue. 40 bad rolls in 30 minutes isn't comparable to 40 bad rolls in 6 hours of dungeon runs.

    The reason RNG works for some other games (i.e. D3) is because of the drop frequency. MMOs, and I assume W*, won't have peoples' bags filled to the brim with superior/epic loot after every raid. Unless I'm wrong, in which case please correct me. :D


    As long as bad RNG rolls have uses (like you have outlined), then that's fine. The issue under the microscope is end-game fight balance, amount of drops per encounter, etc.


    I get what you're saying, but endgame raiders will just ignore the stat entirely and its existence becomes moot. It's like saying you have Character Radiance +10 on all pants, replaced with Character Sexiness +10. When going for an upgrade and you're raiding, you don't even consider the stat. For the above, it actually has some non-combat benefit. For non-tanks, you question why they even have the stat on the item at all.

    What's the purpose of having an ignored stat on all gear, anyway? What's the underlying design intent? Passive ability for all classes to tank? Intent to design endgame fights around X amount of defensive stat on gear?
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  10. Xandita

    Xandita Cupcake

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    It even has one of my favorite aspects from the Harvest Moon series, housing, farm life, and maybe coaxing a lovely lady to visit your happening pad. ;)
  11. herbalz

    herbalz Cupcake-About-Town

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    how'd i forget to shed a tear over housing lol and yea i already stated that im gonna have crazy house dance parties with a disco ball for all to enjoy!

    provided of course that the devs create a disco ball for my house living room :cool: don't let me down devs
  12. Sol

    Sol Cupcake-About-Town

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    I disagree here that there won't be any guides. Someone will work out the stat weights for each spec, post this in a guide along with all the relevant content that drops the item level of the chips you want. Once again, you move straight into the 'just google it, man' when gearing. Not only that, top tier content will be limited I would imagine and required a certain gear level. If that is the case, then min/maxers will always just farm the top most content of gear as that will drop the highest item level loot/chips. That is the definition of running the same content over and over again.

    This is exactly what I am doing right now in swtor, except I don't have to randomly wait for the stars to align. The system is extremely similar to swtor imo, which is why I referenced it, except that armourings, mods and enhancements are either locked or random.

    Not to mention the actual visual appearance of the gear. Now I have to contend with hoping the locked components are useful for my class on gear I just want like the appearance of.

    Randomness on top of randomness on top of randomness. While I completely agree with the underlying principles of your argument, I disagree the method is going to provide it. I foresee a lot of people getting extremely annoyed at always just not quite getting there. People like milestones remember, otherwise why would you post an update every Wildstar Wednesday??
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  13. herbalz

    herbalz Cupcake-About-Town

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    i would personally enjoy farming for specific gear sets more, if it didn't always come from a specific boss. i get that maybe an end game heavy armored foe might drop good soldier weapons or something, but i'd rather have a whole slew of bosses who could potentially drop that gear set so i don't feel as though i'm going through the same motions over and over. just throwin that out there lol i guess for farming efficiency you would want one boss so that your not playing a guessing game, but if several bosses have the same low percentage drop rate then i think that'd work
  14. kur1

    kur1 Cupcake-About-Town

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    Typically, history has shown vendor gear shouldn't have competitive/attractive drops lest quest rewards suffer (making the desire to finish a quest decrease) or dungeon drops lose meaning while leveling. Leveling should be achievement-based in terms of rewards.

    The exceptions I'd consider here are areas where they feel the game lacks rewards for certain slots if you follow a certain questing path (i.e. you could miss/bypass a different zone's quests that reward trinkets, you can buy a trinket from vendors in that zone) or items with interesting on-use effects.

    The "gear catch-up vendors" in Mists of Pandaria were cool for your character, but they screamed "WE DIDN'T DESIGN QUEST REWARDS WELL LOL!" as you literally just cherry-picked upgrades from a vendor. Made all the rewards you got before feel... cheap?
  15. Convicted

    Convicted Super Cupcake

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    This is a little confusing to me, is your "top Tier" content raids or dungeons? and either way, is there a difference between your idea of farming this and when people used to farm BRD for the barmans shanker ( sp?)
  16. RedShift

    RedShift New Cupcake

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    I love how this is shaping up. It's certainly looking like a lot of longevity that caters to my playstyle.
  17. kur1

    kur1 Cupcake-About-Town

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    Top tier content = raids. I don't think anyone is confusing that distinction.

    It's pretty simple what Sol is stating. RNG means people will endlessly farm something until the best (or close-to-best permutation) item drops. That's not fun in itself- especially if you end up rolling bad multiple times in a row and thus perform less with your group.

    I don't think anyone actually enjoyed farming Barman's Shanker for the item if they raided. Maybe for the look. But if you're going for the look, you're making a conscious decision that you want it for cosmetic reasons and lacking it won't impact your enjoyment of the endgame. Bad luck with direct upgrade drops? That will definitely impact you (and your groups') endgame fun as you don't meet DPS checks, don't get invited vs. someone who rolled sufficient stats to do a boss, etc.
  18. Convicted

    Convicted Super Cupcake

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    You are saying that you will farm the raid after you have downed all the bosses, but before the next raid tier comes out? or do you mean you think there will be the need to farm the raid after the next tier is out and you dont want to go back and farm the previous raid?
  19. Sol

    Sol Cupcake-About-Town

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    Farming multiple bosses for gear is certainly better than just one. But item level rules all for min/maxing. It doesn't matter to min/maxers that an item is proficient; they want it to be BiS. Therefore, they will simply farm the top tier over an over because it drops the highest item level stuff. We are back to square one - Farming one instance for BiS gear.
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  20. kur1

    kur1 Cupcake-About-Town

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    Stepping off the nostalgia train for a second, how do more applicable upgrades cease to make a world feel like a giant, epic adventure? Isn't this feeling dependent on the difficulty of monster encounters and the world's size than the loot/player control?

    The world size never got smaller. I am confused how this even relates to gear randomization. If you're referring to being ignorant of the game's stats, mechanics, etc. then that's something you'll never achieve in any game unless they do full design overhauls regularly. There will be guides, posts, DPS optimization tools, etc. that will lay out the game in a digestible format. Again, this is not the fault of the game (because if you just played WoW in isolation, there's nothing that really explains things beyond dire basics) but more the community. But the community demanded it because they wanted to kill difficult bosses and understand the game mechanics.

    This game is hoping to appeal to the 1% raiding community. It wants to have competitive end-game PVP and PVE. Your experience and big world will be inevitably ruined the same way every other MMO has. The only way to bypass this is to offer a game that offers zero appeal to end-game raiders and PVPers.

    How do random enchantments and gear not optimized for yourself make an experience superior? Specifically, what is the thought process in your head? I can appreciate your opinion, but I'm trying to understand the reasoning.

    Personally, I never felt like I didn't have to "work through" leveling (at certain points, and on certain quests especially so) and I certainly never felt that endgame was just handed to me without effort. So I'm really confused where your comments are coming from. Did we play the same game? Did you actually engage in challenging end-game content?

    Leveling is a whole different ballgame from end-game, mind you. Toss people crappy gear while they're leveling up? Whatever. Do the same thing at endgame? Not gonna work if you want any kind of tuning. The dev in this thread mentioned they're going to restrict variability and bound stats, which is good. It takes away the aspect of full RNG. But again, how do you design fights to challenge the 1% with so much variability? The majority won't notice it, but you'll drive the competitive types right out.
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