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Class Homogenization in Raids

Discussion in 'WildStar Classes & Paths' started by John, May 25, 2013.

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Unique or Homogenized buffs and abilities?

  1. Unique

    98.1%
  2. Homogenized

    1.9%
  1. John

    John "That" Cupcake

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    Among all the changes WoW has made over the years, I feel like this is one of the biggest and one that doesn't get talked about much. I don't believe Carbine has announced anything about it (correct me if i'm wrong), but I for one sincerely hope they have unique class abilities and unique buffs.

    I always loved the idea that choosing your class really meant something, that it would in some part define what you would bring to you guild/team in raids or other competitive areas once you got to endgame. It added a sense of realism to me when each class has strengths and weaknesses, it made it feel like real teamwork when each class' strengths were being utilized and made to mesh with other classes in order to mask the weaknesses and ultimately kill stuff as a team.

    Single target tanks, AoE tanks. Single target healers and group heales. Classes that have low DPS but high utility and vice versa etc. Unique buffs. Basically there is no 'god class' that is good at doing everything. There are tradeoffs somewhere so there is always some compelling reason to want each class.

    I hear a lot of arguments saying that it sucks when your class isn't needed in a unique-class system, and when you get booted in favor of another class that its not fair. To me that is the very beauty of the system, that you are actually needed for fights, as opposed to be just an interchangeable cog. I think the key is to design encounters in such a way that each class has a role to fill; maybe you wont be needed on every single boss, but when you are called in you will have a real role to fulfill that means something.

    If you have say 25 players in your raid group for your 20 person raid, you're going to have 5 people on standby anyway. Homogenized or unique doesn't matter in that case, those 5 people are out. Why not have a system where at some point in the night those people will actually be needed and can be swapped in?

    Even if you don't have the 'ideal' class for a given fight, that doesn't mean you have to cancel the raid. It just means the fight won't be as easy as it could have been. Still possible, just more challenging. To me that is a worthwhile tradeoff to have a unique buff system.
    Juggz, Mierelle, Alverad and 4 others like this.
  2. Relapse

    Relapse Cupcake

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    I'm pretty sure that we will see some form of uniqueness between classes. Also keep in mind though with the limit ability slot bar there should also be a cool vibe of uniques among players rolling the same class. It should make for an interesting experience and hopefully if taken advantage of well and with careful planning could be a requirement for higher end raiding to need a certain mix of abilities among your healers/tanks.
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  3. Sawpaw

    Sawpaw Cupcake-About-Town

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    I hope that all the different classes play very differently, but in terms of what they actually bring to raids, I expect the classes will be balanced in a way that every class is as useful as the next. I really do not expect to see X class is better for this boss and Y class is better for the next boss, I think those days are over.
  4. Inimicus

    Inimicus Cupcake

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    I voted Unique and feel that this is the way Wildstar will go with its plans for "Big" Raids, the reason from what i recall that WoW homogenised the buffs was so that in a 10 man group you could essentially get the full coverage of buffs, you may not have been able to have every buff 100% of the time but for the key times you would have the buffs required.

    Since Wildstar doesn't plan on the smaller group Raid content there should be a good class coverage and so each should be able to bring it's own unique buff or skill that allows that class/spec to really shine as "this is the reason you wanted me here"
  5. azmundai

    azmundai Well-Known Cupcake

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    generally speaking the homogenization of wow is typically stated as being caused by the focus being turned to 10 man raids. the need to not force every raid to have a shaman for .. w/e that crazy buff they has is, I forget. Thus they had to give that buff to everyone so that they could design around it being there in a 10 man as opposed to the buff being there, trivializing the content.

    with 40 man raids they can assume 1-2 of every class with confidence.

    in theory.
  6. Rumze

    Rumze "That" Cupcake

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    With big raids and pvp battles, I think they will go for unique.
  7. Inv1cted

    Inv1cted Cupcake-About-Town

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    The phrasing of you poll and it's binary nature are biased as it shows that everyone who disagrees with you wants class homogenization.
    Even homogenized homogenized WoW has that; Druids are (or were haven't played MoP) sub par AoE tanks, DKs have bad snap threat, disc and holy priests have different places in raids. It's good to have differentiation in classes but you still have to be at-least mildly competent at everything in your role so everyone can have fun.
    As for what I bolded in a PvE scenario this just going to result in that class being perma-sat unless every single fight in every single raid is designed to take advantage of their utility in which case they're going to be a must bring for every fight.
    As for unique buffs I'm on the fence about that it either leads to a situation where the buffs are so minor it's irrelevant or you're 'bringing the class not the player' I.e. the crappy shammy because they're packing BL.
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  8. Bainik

    Bainik Cupcake-About-Town

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    Unique would be my preference with some stipulations.

    Things that should be niche/unique:
    • buffs
    • group enhancing mechanics (windfury and shadow priest mana regen come to mind)
    • individual spells (hopefully obvious)
    • situational output (high mobility, high CC, high AoE, strong group healing, strong tank healing, high single target threat, high AoE threat, etc)
    • Utility skills (soul stone, battle rez, indirect taunts, bubbles, shield wall, bloodlust, etc)
    Things that should be fairly uniform/homogeneous:
    • Patchwerk style DPS output for DPS roles
    • "average encounter" DPS output for DPS roles
    • Passable single target healing for healer roles (shaman vs paladin during BC is a good example of the distinction between passable and specialized performance here)
    • Passable single target threat for all tank roles (think prot paladins in parts of BC raiding)
    Let me go into a bit more of why I think those few things need to be well standardized.

    In regards to "average encounter" and Patchwerk style DPS equivalence I think it's important for a couple of reasons. People role classes for a number of reasons: more experienced players might role them for what they want to bring to a raid, but many players, both experienced and new, roll classes because they like that class mechanically and dislike the play style of other classes (for instance this is why I rolled a hunter in WoW and a large part of why I quit WoW when they changed hunters resource mechanic).

    Having a strong point, like being able to keep up DPS while mobile or put out high AoE numbers, feels really good and when another class outperforms you in a niche situation it doesn't feel too bad. But when you're both just sitting there trying to pump out as much as you can it really sucks to be unable to keep up due to class choices, and similarly if in an "average" fight other classes have an advantage it gets old being constantly outclassed. This is especially acute when you rolled the class not because of what it brings but because it's the play style you enjoy.

    The stipulation about passable single target threat and healing is more a concern for small group play and 20 mans. In a 40 man you should really have all your healing bases covered, but in smaller group size play you may not have a niche single target healer and you almost certainly need decent single target healing to do anything (bosses hit tanks rather hard). Similarly if there's a tank that only really does well with AoE threat then you have a problem when you get to any sort of boss and don't have a single target tank. I only make the stipulation in regards to single target because in almost all situations you can bandaid a lack of AoE healing by repeated single target heals where AoE heals usually can't be concentrated onto one person, and similarly a lack of AoE threat can be bandaided by just focus targetting one thing at a time.
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  9. Bainik

    Bainik Cupcake-About-Town

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    snipped everything I agree with. I just want to talk about this last bit a little. That's only a problem if you make the utility vs output divide. If everyone has some unique buff for their class then you bring the good players because, while they may not give you BL, they give you something of equal value. It may have an effect on how you approach the fight because you're running without BL but whatever the other class provides should be equally valuable and allow some other successful approach.

    Alternatively you could just be careful how you design those powerful niche skills. If instead of BL being "hit the button, everyone gets lots of haste" it was "hit the button and everyone gets haste in proportion to your output" suddenly that crappy shaman isn't really worth bringing but a good shaman is still a tremendous asset, or if someone had something along the line of Honor Among Thieves from WotLK that worked with other classes resources as well. The point being to make the extremely powerful group utility that would otherwise incent bringing crappy players just for the buff more active such that crappy players don't actually contribute that much.

    Even if they can't achieve that level of balance (some fights will inevitably favor one mechanic over another), I'd argue that it's still a good thing in most cases. Yes, it can lead to guilds bringing <REDACTED>ty players for that one buff, but most of the time you can manage to find a non-<REDACTED>ty member of the right class and it's a good way to make everyone feel as if they bring something special to the group.
  10. Jarinolde

    Jarinolde Cupcake-About-Town

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    There has to be balance somewhere, you cannot completely homogenize classes a la modern World of Warcraft, yet you cannot have totally unique classes like in "Ye Olde Times". The former has an obvious reason, it sucks.

    For the latter, if there is a surge in population of a certain class just because its a very popular class, yet most raid teams will only take a few at a time because that's what happens with unique classes, then there will be a large amount of players playing those classes having a hard time getting into dedicated raid teams.

    Vice versa, if there is a very low amount of a particular class, raid teams will be biting each others heads off vying for those players. Having some homogenization would allow raid teams to take a few more of a particular class if they're unable to get the exact composition they want, and still be able to complete content.
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  11. Whuat

    Whuat New Cupcake

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    I´m all for unique buffs, the question is how it will be executed. In 40-man raids it would be no problem to get a player with every buff you need for a specific encounter into the raid setup BUT what if the buffs are not raid-wide but only group buffs as in Vanilla WoW/TBC ?
    I remember the 2 caster groups beating themselves up about who gets the shadow priest in TBC or switching the shamans from group to group at Brutallus so the group with the highest average dmg output had more or less perma-BL. That´s what I want to know before I get to much into the topic of unique/homogenized buffs themself.
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  12. Vladislove

    Vladislove New Cupcake

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    I'll vote for unique, but, with some kind of balance. I don't really want to see some specs being useless in every way and force you to change to healer (or whatever other spec)to make you useful.
  13. Malorak

    Malorak Cupcake-About-Town

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    We will have special path-only buffs AFAIK, imagine Bloodlust from WoW but for only Settlers because they throw campfires around. Idk, lol.

    But I'm all for unique buffs, too. I'd really like that. But we won't have the typical "increases intelligence by 10% for 30minutes" buffs, because those are kinda boring and force you to take a class with you who specced this (You get a limited amount of skills and such buffs, remember?) which would suck.

    So...Raidwide Cooldowns and such are cool, Debuffs, buffs whatever.
  14. Joukehainen

    Joukehainen Well-Known Cupcake

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    Unique. Please unique. Oh please. I know, I know, Blizzard's whole thing with "bring the player, not the class" but in reality you need both when classes have unique buffs and abilities. When they have homogenized buffs and abilities... why even bother having different classes? :p it sucks out SO much potential for fun tactics, set-ups, clever use of game mechanics, strategizing, etc.

    Word.
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  15. Thordran

    Thordran Cupcake-About-Town

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    Class homogenization is dumb and I don't like it. Work harder at balancing your numbers and not taking personality away from your players' choices.

    That's really all I have to say about that. :)
  16. Extatica

    Extatica Super Cupcake

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    Oh the horror some changes in WoW brought to me....Mages being able to Bloodlust, Scription proffesion could potentially replace alot of buffs for a somehow weaker version etc.

    Just with 1 fell swoop they completely destroyed the unique qualities of some classes.

    Ofcourse too much of that ''unique'' can also be potentially dangerous for a game. But i think WoW had it pretty covered before the changes (in some way).

    But guys, don't forget that even though there may be class uniqueness (is this a word?), there is also ''Skill uniqueness''.

    You can have multiple Esper healers, but mayby 1 has chosen to get alot of AoE heals (lower healing but bigger area of effect), while another has more single target heals (higher healing but a smaller area of effect)?

    Mayby buffs will take up 1 slot in your LAS-bar, which can mean you really got to have atleast 2-3 of each class in order to get the most out of all classes (this is if all buffs, if there are any, are raid wide and not group wide).

    So i can see ''unique'' be a big part in the raiding/grouping in WildStar :up: (thank God!)
  17. NigthmareSystem

    NigthmareSystem Cupcake-About-Town

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    I think... you forget every character will have limited number of skill (7 , 9 or whatever the final number is going to be) so ... I don't think there is going to be a lot of buff here (maybe some passives) unless u are a Heal/support class

    Also... I don't like the "unique buff" system. that made obligatory bring X class over another. the thing that must be unique is the play style in combats + animations like in GuildWars because as I say we aren't going to get +30 skill at the same time to use like WoW. because... this isn't World of WarCraft and should be that, WildStar a fresh air in MMORPG games, and not another clone like SWTOR
  18. Yinello

    Yinello Cupcake-About-Town

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    You need to find balance. Making every class very unique is nice for raids, but WildStar isn't just about raids. This mean certain classes will have trouble finding dungeons or soloing or pvping, because they're simply not made for it. And if you have classes that really only work for a few aspects of the game, you're going to have a load of disgruntled players - and an upset class balance of people only playing certain classes.

    Why did WoW start homogenizing classes? Because it sucked to be that class that didn't function well outside a raid. Levelling a tank or a healer in vanilla WoW? If you didn't have friends or a guild, why bother? These kind of things also hurt raids as well because you might not find that perfectly built healer Esper because no one wanted to go through hell to level it.

    Having a good balance of the two is the best way to go.
  19. CWFWS1

    CWFWS1 Cupcake

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    I'm all for unique classes. I've been preaching about not wanting homogenization since early WoW/SWG, but it seems like a trade-off one way or another with most devs.

    Either you have unique classes and horrible balance or homogenization and boredom.

    From what I've seen, people complain far too much about X class has such and such CC ability and Y doesn't. Nerf X or fix Y! That's problematic. The balance should revolve more around damage/healing output, specifically in a given window of CC.

    To be honest, it's a discussion that has gone, and most likely will go on, for years and years. It's tough to make unique-feeling classes and still have complete balance in damage/healing/cc. Complete balance is probably asking a bit much, though. I'd settle for "pretty damn close". All I can really hope for at this point is that Wildstar devs know how to get it right.
  20. Lekore

    Lekore New Cupcake

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    I forget where I saw this so i cant provide a link but im almost positive i heard a dev say that each class has a unique buff so its good to have a variety.... I could be a cracky tho

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