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Crafting as a legitimate means of leveling

Discussion in 'WildStar General' started by BlueDragon18, Jul 7, 2013.

  1. BlueDragon18

    BlueDragon18 Cupcake-About-Town

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    Some games have shouted to the universe that you can craft your way to maximum level - Guild Wars 2 being the most recent and the loudest. What they DIDN'T say is that you can only do that if you have incredible amounts of money and/or a high level character feeding you with materials.

    I can only think of one game where you could actually get your crafting skills to maximum without ever adventuring - and that was EverQuest 1. It wasn't easy mind you. To make money you had to craft certain recipes many, many times, and the amount of money you made certainly wasn't as much as you could make by adventuring/questing/grinding. But, you COULD do it. (All components were bought from certain merchants and sold back to merchants.)

    EverQuest 2 had crafting "quests" that gave nice rewards. I don't recall that you didn't have to adventure at all, but it wasn't all that much.

    The problem with all the MMOs I've played since is that, unless you're a very high level crafter, the mass of things crafted pushed prices on the markets to below material costs. You could make money by speculating on the market, but that certainly isn't crafting.

    What I hope for with Wildstar is the ability to craft, and sell for a modest profit to merchants, not players. If this is done like EQ1, the gold sellers would have no incentive to do so because it will take longer to craft than to go botting after mobs.

    If something like this is not implemented, once again there will be a lot of frustrated crafters, and frustrated players are the ones who quit playing.

    Getting back to EQ1, you had to run back and forth through 3 zones to get the materials to craft and then sell to the merchant. Surely something similar is possible in Wildstar for those who don't find whacking mobs as much fun as making things.
  2. Extatica

    Extatica Super Cupcake

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    I always found it stupid that in WoW the crafting dailies were only for high/end level....I would love to see some crafting quests for lower levels aswell.

    But I do think Housing will provide some things for crafters aswell, not only your own workstation and material nodes, but those nodes will mayby even provide some quests so you could get exp. while gathering materials.

    But that's just my speculation :D
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  3. nomotog

    nomotog Cupcake-About-Town

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    We need to come up with a name for when the materials cost more then the fished goods. Maybe economic inversion. Though, I think when people say you can level just by crafting, they are talking about gathering then crafting.
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  4. AcidBaron

    AcidBaron "That" Cupcake

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    It has been said that combat is the main source of leveling, therefor we can safely assume all other paths will not be optimized for this.
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  5. BlueDragon18

    BlueDragon18 Cupcake-About-Town

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    You may be right. I certainly don't mind gathering stuff myself, but I don't like having to level by fighting just to get high enough level to harvest things. I like games where gathering skills level separately from combat skills. (It was one of the things that FFXIV did right.)

    In FFXIV hostile mobs of say, level 15, wouldn't attack you if you were a level 35 crafter or harvester, even if your combat level was level 2. This I like. Not to mention that you could get a stealth field that hid you from mobs while you were harvesting. (There were level limits to it, but still, it helped.)
  6. nomotog

    nomotog Cupcake-About-Town

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    You can't have a crafting thread without me mentioning runescape. In that game, you could level almost all of your crafting skills without fighting. One notable exception being hunting. They did that by putting in small zones with no enemies and just resources. I would like to see places like that in WS a few zones that only exist to be crafting places.
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  7. AusterlitZ

    AusterlitZ Well-Known Cupcake

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    imo,crafting should reward you financially,and offer you the possibility of providing goods for yourself/your guild,i hate when it's used as a leveling tool.
  8. Teehk

    Teehk Cupcake-About-Town

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    I would love to see crafting be a subsource of EXP, also it would be nice to see some gathering do that as well
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  9. Pejo

    Pejo Cupcake-About-Town

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    Bleh, it seems I was in the minority that did not like the ability to level through crafting, at least to the extent gw2 did. I'm fine with it rewarding exp but it should be equivalent to what it is:
    Harvest a node = killing node-level-appropriate mob
    Craft green item = complete a quest
    Craft Rare item = complete an elite quest

    GW2 took that extremely far and I believe the first person to 80 was a crafter (could be mistaken but remember something like that). I feel there should be rewards for how you play but there should be limits - what about the AH tycoon that spends his days there? Should he not get xp for every item he sells, xp based on the quality of the item or perhaps the money brought in?

    Also, I definitely do not believe there should be a resource island that is free of monsters - there needs to be risk/reward on everything including resources.
  10. nomotog

    nomotog Cupcake-About-Town

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    Generally I like it when crafting is it's own advancement with it's own EXP rather then just another way to get combat EXP.
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  11. BlueDragon18

    BlueDragon18 Cupcake-About-Town

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    Agree completely.
  12. Ohoni

    Ohoni Cupcake-About-Town

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    I think one of the major problems GW2 had was in giving adventuring XP from crafting. You should not have been able to level up just by crafting. That doesn't mean you shouldn't be able to be an optimal crafter just by crafting though, I mean, you should be able to sit in Lion's Arch and grind your way up to 400 crafting in every discipline if you like, just that if that's all you do, you should be level 2 when you're done.

    I think the other was in how relatively worthless the "harvest" materials become, like wood and metal, compared to looted resources like claws and scales, and in how if you scavenge an item all you get back are the relatively worthless base materials, not the more valuable rare materials (until high level rares where you can get Ectos, at least).

    It's a tricky balance though, because if you let players profit off of crafting, and you make crafting too easy to do, then all you'll end up with is crafting bots, chugging away 24/7 in their houses, flooding the market with items, filling their pockets with gold. It would be very hard to fix too, since a crafting bot would be little different from a player crafter.

    The only way I can think to prevent this would be to basically add "captcha" elements to the crafting process, actual gameplay mechanics that involve reacting to on screen prompts in a way that is easy for a human to figure out, but which a bot cannot be programmed to do correctly.

    It was part of it. If I remember correctly, he knew certain areas to grind for most of it, but did knock out one or two crafts to get the last ten to twenty levels. It was harder to powercraft at launch since the markets were not flooded with high-end loot. Power-cooking was easier at launch since there were many recipes that could be done using only vendor-bought goods.
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  13. Ohoni

    Ohoni Cupcake-About-Town

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    I just thought of an interesting way to add a reasonable level of chance to the crafting process. Some crafting systems in the past have had a potential for failure to them, where there would be a chance that you would lose all the resources you put into trying to make it. This is a bit cruel, since that can get very expensive very quickly. So I was thinking, what if there were a specific resource, let's call it "timeium."

    This timeium is mined from your home plot, and cannot be traded to others, you you get a fixed amount each day, no more. You could increase the amount available by leveling your crafting skills. Any high quality craftables would require a certain amount of timeium, and on a crafting failure, you would lose the timeium, but none of the other resources.

    Therefore, crafting failures would set back your creation of fancy goods, but would not lose you any money. There would of course always be some things you can craft without timeium, just to level your crafting or make some pocket change, but all the really cool stuff would have that element of risk to it.
  14. nomotog

    nomotog Cupcake-About-Town

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    In a system like that, where is the fun?
  15. Ohoni

    Ohoni Cupcake-About-Town

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    I don't know, where's the fun in a normal crafting system?
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  16. nomotog

    nomotog Cupcake-About-Town

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    Ok ya you got me there. There tends not to be fun in most crafting systems. The fun comes from what you make rather then how you make it. There is fun around these systems, but they tend not to be inherent in the system it's self.

    Edit: I posted too fast for a question that requires more thought.
  17. Symphus

    Symphus New Cupcake

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    I would love to see crafting missions, especially for items you can put in your house. I think having to craft everything would only enrich and immerse your game experience
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  18. Littleman

    Littleman New Cupcake

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    Crafting systems are notoriously hard to make... well... valuable. If goods are too easy to put together, materials become more expensive. SOME games do it right, but in most of these games, players rail against the crafting system because of, ironically, costs, and not so ironically: success chance (AKA, RNG.) Another factor might be time dedication, where training a craft isn't something where One visits the AH one night, buys out the necessary number of mats, and maxes their crafting out in a 3 hour sitting for practically chump change.

    Two BIG ones I hear no end of complaints about:

    Aion: You COULD fail, but it was actually unlikely. Rather, the system here was that raw materials were dirt cheap overall, save for a few rarer materials and of course fluxes, fluxes of which were used as a crafting cap so One couldn't just spam even crafts that use very common materials. Instead, there was a chance for a high quality proc. Naturally, a crafted item that wasn't the high quality variant wasn't worth nearly as much as the high quality variant. In fact, not scoring a high quality craft proc was akin to failing the whole darn craft altogether. You might sell the standard variant to someone in desperate need of an equipment upgrade get SOME money back, but ultimately, few people really cared for it.

    Mabinogi: OMFG. The items One was regularly working with the train for the next rank often had a roughly 30% success chance (particularly blacksmithing,) and this was if you crafted on a day with a crafting success bonus, and to complete the item, they had to craft into it multiple times. Mind you, while One received SOME skill points towards the next rank on either a success or fail, they only received this points so many times. Skill ranks required 100 points to rank up, and a failure might cover only a maximum total of 20 points, success 20 points, and actual completion of either poor quality, standard, or exceptional quality maybe the rest. Mind you, a fail meant losing some if not ALL progress. A fail could also mean a meager +2% crafted for the item, with naturally 100% being necessary to finish it. A success might amount to just 12%.

    In the end, what makes crafted items valuable is that the crafting system is frustrating, but most people don't want frustrating, they "want to be rewarded for their work." Except... in the WoW system you just pay up something that ISN'T the common currency to get an item via an alternative "reputation" grind that is again earned by paying up something that ISN'T the common currency, and typically developers make it worth crud stat wise because it is usually that easy to get, and players see it as crud because, yeah, it IS that easy to get. Sure, there might be the odd item that requires a rare, boss, dungeon or raid drop, maybe few of them to really drag it out, but ultimately, there is one idiom I can apply to crafting: You can't eat your cake and have it too.

    Speaking of which... temporary items, particularly consumables, will always be in demand... such as resources to make those temporary items, such as healing potions and buff scrolls. Unless crafted weapons and armor can not be repaired or ONLY repaired by the guy that crafted them, crafted equipment running on WoW's "alternative rep-grind/payment" system will always be worth jack diddly.


    ------------------------------
    TL;DR
    ------------------------------

    The solutions to undervalued goods are limiting crafting such that only dedicated crafters really stick with crafting.

    *1. Flux/paverunes/universal limiter that is required in practically ALL "permanent" crafts (armor, weapons.) The tighter the restrictions, the fewer the dedicated crafters, the more valuable their items become - Provided that statistically they're not rubbish anyway.

    2. Failure chance. Whether this be a completely destroyed item, or a chance at a higher proc variant with better stats that thus renders the default craft completely undesirable anyway.

    3. Making items temporary such that they WILL fade in time (not to be confused with eventually replaced) or at least require return visits to a dedicated crafter to maintain.

    *Random drops stimulate the "resource" economy to a degree, while offering the gatherer crafter a chance at farming their own materials. An allotted number on say a daily or weekly basis may make these infinitely more valuable, depending on the quantity provided in comparison to the quantity of items they can craft in total.

    Basically, MMO crafting (of high value goods) and spoiled people do not mesh well. Most people are spoiled people.
  19. Ohoni

    Ohoni Cupcake-About-Town

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    If we're discussing crafting as a legitimate gameplay task, how much actual skill should be involved?

    I mean, crafting it typically viewed, even by crafters, as a fairly laid back process. Failure rates do not involve skill, they just turn it into a gambling process. How much would crafters enjoy a system involving actual skill, where each crafting process involved actively controlling multiple things at once, presenting as much challenge to the player's talent and reflexes as a combat encounter to achieve a maximum result? Even if you fail most of the skill checks you'd get a little bit, but to get maximum skill XP and the highest quality item you'd need to "fight" the craft as well as someone who can win a standard fight with barely a scratch on him.
  20. Silais

    Silais Cupcake

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    I think it'd be more important that crafting actually be valuable. Leveling via crafting in Guild Wars 2 was certainly nice, but it was soured a bit by the market being so saturated with materials and products that it was all but impossible to make any sort of money from doing so, unless you were willing to try your luck at making exotics or gambling with legendaries.

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