1. Hey Guest! If you're more than just a WildStar fan and want to keep up on the latest MMO news, reviews and opinion pieces then I'd like to suggest you visit our sister site MMO Central

Crafting as a legitimate means of leveling

Discussion in 'WildStar General' started by BlueDragon18, Jul 7, 2013.

  1. John

    John "That" Cupcake

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2013
    Likes Received:
    618
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Location:
    USA
    "Life Experience" is the same thing as what you call "adventuring experience". Im talking about 1 XP bar that is grown by doing anything in the game world, crafting, questing, killing mobs, PVP, exploring etc. Although not all in equal proportion. To me, all of those things are part of the game world, and thus doing those things raises your overall experience level as a citizen of planet Nexus.

    I don't understand what exactly you definition of "adventuring experience" is, but to me the entire game is an adventure, its all new and anything you do is giving you a new experience.

    Clearly you didn't get the law school/med school analogy. Im not saying killing mobs should give you skill points in your crafting profession, but I am saying gaining skill points in crafting should give you "life experience". If you stop thinking of the main XP bar as "adventuring XP" and instead think of it just as "overall XP" I think you will understand.


    The "life experience" bar going up should not raise your crafting skill, no.
  2. FairyTailisBack

    FairyTailisBack Cupcake-About-Town

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2013
    Likes Received:
    143
    Trophy Points:
    43
    John ur life experience bar idea is bad.
    It has and likely never will exist in any MMO.
    Just saying brother. :)
  3. John

    John "That" Cupcake

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2013
    Likes Received:
    618
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Location:
    USA
    Not sure what your trying to say but that is my point...crafting gives XP.

    It exists in this game, and actually almost every single MMO.
    Livnthedream likes this.
  4. FairyTailisBack

    FairyTailisBack Cupcake-About-Town

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2013
    Likes Received:
    143
    Trophy Points:
    43
    No, it doesn't.
    You sir are completely delusional. :)
    There are no life experience bar's in any MMO!

    EQ for instance had an experience bar for practically everything you did.
    WoW only removed the experience bars for different weapons a few years ago. Before then you had to level each one individually!
    There never has nor ever will be a life experience bar. Which is a good thing! :)
  5. John

    John "That" Cupcake

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2013
    Likes Received:
    618
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Location:
    USA
    If you run around new zones that you havent seen in wow, you get XP.
    If you craft in WS, you get XP.
    If you kill players in PVP, you get XP
    If you kill mobs, you get XP
    If you you turn in quests, you get XP

    And all of that XP is going onto one XP bar.
    That's not to say there can't be other XP bars for certain things, but clearly 'overall XP' is gained through more means than your vaguely defined "adventuring".
    Livnthedream likes this.
  6. FairyTailisBack

    FairyTailisBack Cupcake-About-Town

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2013
    Likes Received:
    143
    Trophy Points:
    43
    The dev never said you get xp from crafting.
    Its likely that you kill things or gather things and get xp that way.
    Its not simple WoW crafting where u make 10 bronze axes.

    The rest of that is adventuring.
    Besides, the amount of xp from things other than killing and questing is so small its nearly insignificant.
    So again, what you are arguing for? Do you just want to argue semantics about definitions?
  7. John

    John "That" Cupcake

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2013
    Likes Received:
    618
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Location:
    USA
    I don't really know tbh. This seems to happen a lot in Ohoni-centered debates.
  8. FairyTailisBack

    FairyTailisBack Cupcake-About-Town

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2013
    Likes Received:
    143
    Trophy Points:
    43
    I actually think we kind of agree.
    John likes this.
  9. Ohoni

    Ohoni Cupcake-About-Town

    Joined:
    May 13, 2013
    Likes Received:
    247
    Trophy Points:
    43
    That's your opinion of how you think it should be, it's not a fact. The fact is that in most games (there are some exceptions), what you choose to label as "life experience" is simply not tracked at all. There is adventuring experience, which they just call "experience," and there is "everything else," if there is anything other than adventuring in the game, and that stuff is typically tracked completely separately, raising without impacting the adventuring experience at all. There are very few in which side activities like crafting contribute to your core experience levels.

    Ok, fine, but two questions that lead to a third.

    1. If there is such a bar, would the results of it make you better at fighting? (ie would someone who raises this bar to 50% be stronger in a fight than a player who only has it raised to 25%, regardless of how he raised it?)

    2. If there is such a bar, would the results of it alone make you better at crafting? (ie would someone who raises this bar to 50% be a better crafter than a player who only has it raised to 25%, regardless of how he raised it?)

    and 3. If you said yes to 1, but not to 2, then why do you think that's fair or makes any sense?

    And fair enough, and if they measure "your overall experience level as a citizen of planet Nexus" then that's fine, but that seems more like an achievements rating than what would be a traditional RPG experience bar, something to measure your broad experiences, rather than your specific skills in adventuring. I mean, my achievement rating in GW2 is over 6000, and 320 of that is from mastering crafting disciplines, but I don't think that those crafts should have raised my general XP bar as much as they did.

    But I can't do that because traditionally in an MMO, your XP bar directly relates to your combat strength. A character that is level 20 is better in combat than a character that is level 15, and if you can get from level 10 to 20 by crafting, then that would mean that the character would become stronger at fighting than a level 15 character who fought his way from 10-15, which doesn't make a lot of sense.

    Now, if levels are completely divorced from combat potential, and a level capped player who got there via crafting is no stronger in a fight than a level 5 player, then sure, whatever, but I just don't see the point of it.

    But raising your crafting skill should make you better at fighting, you think?
  10. Ohoni

    Ohoni Cupcake-About-Town

    Joined:
    May 13, 2013
    Likes Received:
    247
    Trophy Points:
    43
    Aside from crafting, all of those activities are "adventuring."
  11. John

    John "That" Cupcake

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2013
    Likes Received:
    618
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Location:
    USA
    How exactly do you define "adventuring XP"?
  12. Ohoni

    Ohoni Cupcake-About-Town

    Joined:
    May 13, 2013
    Likes Received:
    247
    Trophy Points:
    43
    XP you get from adventure, that makes you better at adventure.
  13. Livnthedream

    Livnthedream Super Cupcake

    Joined:
    May 20, 2013
    Likes Received:
    1,090
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Except these are rpgs and not adventure games.
  14. John

    John "That" Cupcake

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2013
    Likes Received:
    618
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Location:
    USA

    This is like pulling teeth...how do you define adventure?
  15. nomotog

    nomotog Cupcake-About-Town

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2013
    Likes Received:
    157
    Trophy Points:
    43
    Who thought the experience was so controversial. I would like to swing in here and just fix the debate, but i'm not that smart :p. I think you should get every thing you need to craft from crafting. Like you should just be able to go from level 0 sword-making to level 200 sword-making just by making swords. (My idea system is gear based.) Now the tricky thing is that a lot of MMOs wrap there crafting up there more general combat advancement. They lock away your mining nodes in high level dungeons guarded by monsters. If you have to fight monsters to craft, then you should get some kind of combat EXP so you can keep up your crafting.
    Livnthedream likes this.
  16. Ohoni

    Ohoni Cupcake-About-Town

    Joined:
    May 13, 2013
    Likes Received:
    247
    Trophy Points:
    43
    That is definitely a fact.

    Things you do outside of safe zones like towns. Fighting things, exploring, rescuing people, solving problems, finding treasure, pretty much what you could find by looking up the textbook definition.

    High level materials often are in high level zones, but you shouldn't have to be high level to get access to them. Harvesting those materials is a job for an adventurer, but he can always sell them, and crafters can always buy them. Crafters should be able to buy materials, craft with them, and sell their goods back for a profit and buy more resources. It should be a modest profit over time, it definitely shouldn't be the quickest way to earn money, but it should allow a crafter to max his craft without ever leaving town if that's what he wants to do. It also needs to involve challenge, so that it's difficult for bots to do it, otherwise you'd just have craftbots ruling the markets.

    Crafters don't need to gain adventuring XP for crafting, because they don't need to adventure. If they want adventuring XP then they should adventure for it, just as an adventurer can't become a better alchemist by hitting things in the head.
  17. Livnthedream

    Livnthedream Super Cupcake

    Joined:
    May 20, 2013
    Likes Received:
    1,090
    Trophy Points:
    113
    The problem is you are using textbook definitions to argue genre, which does not hold true in the slightest. By that definition virtually every game is an adventure title. Rpgs are almost entirely character driven, with xp bars serving to function as a way of showing character growth amongst other mechanics. Attempting to quibble that "adventure xp has to exist!" because you seemingly hate crafters is absurd.
  18. Ohoni

    Ohoni Cupcake-About-Town

    Joined:
    May 13, 2013
    Likes Received:
    247
    Trophy Points:
    43
    Most MMOs really are more adventure games than RPGs, since the RP elements tend to take a back seat when it comes to mechanics, and are largely just a social overlay that the players create for themselves.

    I don't hate crafters at all, I just don't think that crafting should make you better at killing things. It should just make you better at crafting things. Why is that such a divisive stance to you? I have yet to hear any halfway decent reason why crafting things should make you better at killing things, beyond "we want some free XP!"

    I also haven't heard even one crafter, even the ones that seem most fervent in their belief that they are entitled to getting free XP for crafting things, that would agree that adventurers should conversely gain crafting skill via combat. If you can't agree to have the system work in both directions, then why do you expect anyone to care what you think about it?
  19. Livnthedream

    Livnthedream Super Cupcake

    Joined:
    May 20, 2013
    Likes Received:
    1,090
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Thats a terrible argument, and you should know better. There is no realistic way to reward what you are clearly defining to be rp with current tech. Atleast not and remain economical.

    After your vision of how crafting and economies should work I call bull<REDACTED>. At best you want to completely strip out any real trading of goods, and through that devaluation destroy the reason for crafting in the first place.

    The problem is you are once again arguing to win instead of actually attempting to solve the problem presented, much like every single one of your closeminded posts. The one thing that crafters actually keep demanding (that you seem to want to enforce, hence the "hate" for crafters) is they do not want to be second class citizens. The issue though is crafting in general is not overly rewarding, often for a number of reasons, but especially while leveling. Outside of making crafters their own class (which has a number of other issues) there are very few ways to incentivize crafting enough to make it a worthwhile activity. Your claims of "crafting is its own reward!" are just as hollow as stating ANY part of the game is its own reward because its fun. If something is rewarding it gets picked over fun the vast majority of the time because that is simply how people are. "But but people should do what they enjoy instead!" One would think, but then people tend more toward irrationality than rationality (kinda like you and your perversity for forum pvp) as has been shown repeatedly throughout history.

    You want to bicker and "win" by being a rules lawyer when you should be asking "why does crafting grant xp in the first place". If you honestly believe the devs put such features in place so people could sit in town and hit max level you are insane.
  20. nomotog

    nomotog Cupcake-About-Town

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2013
    Likes Received:
    157
    Trophy Points:
    43
    I actually am rather enthralled by the idea of a crafting classes. Something like what SWG did.

Share This Page