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Crafting, waste of time like other MMOs?

Discussion in 'WildStar General' started by Jackwagon, Mar 27, 2014.

  1. Jackwagon

    Jackwagon New Cupcake

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    I'll preface this by admitting I'm bias. To me the best crafting system in any MMO ever was from SWG. The player crafted the best gear, weapons, food, furniture, buffs, etc., in game.
    To do that this player would have to devote an incredible amount of time finding the richest and best resources in order to craft the best in game items and make a mad amount of cash doing it. And I'm not talking about farming end game 40man raids for drops. They had to search for it in the open world and harvest it.

    Every other MMO sense has been end game raid loot is the best in game so if your not a hard core raider you'll never obtain the best gear. This fact along with dungeon drops and in some MMO's even random mob drops are better than what can be crafted which leads me to my point and question about this game. Will Wildstar be any different? Is there a point or incentive to craft or will it be obsolete like in other MMO's where its better to take up all gathering professions and sell materials rather than craft.
  2. Livnthedream

    Livnthedream Super Cupcake

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    Taking your bias in mind, no, you can't make all of the bestest loot in the game. Can you make arguably the best loot for solo/small group, yes. The best loot is reserved for that which requires the most effort.

    Something to keep in mind though, all of that strikethrough/crit defense that raiders need is effectively useless in base raiding, and much of the "solo gear" has additional base stats so you can continue your own line of progression. So while you may not be getting the same ilvl, you will be getting gear that is superior to raid gear for solo/small group play.
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  3. Domi Dayglow

    Domi Dayglow Super Cupcake

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    What you can make does bring up the question of what you want to be at level 50. What purpose will this character serve? For example, on my way to level 50 with my esper, I plan to take Tailor and Relic hunter. Tailor because I can make lots of different armor pieces with traits I want. I will also be able to make pieces of armor for my spellslinger on the way.

    Meanwhile, Relic Hunter will let me collect resources as I go through progression. At level 50, when I start looking to more dungeons, elder game, and raids I should be able to equip myself as DPS or Healing Esper with my crafting skill and only really have to invest in a weapon. This will help me get to more dungeons as I collect equipment there and work my way to a raid.

    Along the way I will switch out my Tailor skill in favor of technologist. Technologist will let me great attribute boosting potions for such raids and better support my team. I should have a little stockpile of materials saved up from leveling with the relic hunter skill from the beginning.

    In this case, from a "Make your team work better" perspective, the things I can make as a technologist will have more effect on raiders than whatever armor I could craft for them.

    Likewise, my first alternate character will be a medic with the weaponsmith skill with a gathering skill in mining. This will let me craft weapons for any other character that I make, reducing what I might have to purchase for future characters.

    Like Livn said, the three types of gear (Solo, Raid/Dungeon, PvP) have different key elements that you want for their function. For example, PvP gear granting PvP Offense and PvP Defense stats. Those two stats are great in pvp, but have no effect on a raid. PvP offense might be great in the arena! But if you made your character as a gatherer to supply yourself with resources maybe more Moxie (or whatever your assault stat is) would be better.

    Let's say you make a character who's sole purpose will be as a gatherer for raw materials. PvP and Raid equipment aren't really that important. Let's say this character is a warrior. Choose Armorsmith and Mining. This will let you level up while making armor that you need. You have many pieces of armor to buy, but only one weapon after all. At level 50, trade out the Armorsmith skill for another gathering skill. Sure you will be a 'novice' at gathering with the new skill, but by that time after launch most people will be in the upper levels and therefore not collecting as many low level resources. Thus you have an open market to you.

    Wildstar also has it's talent tree and a variety of things that can easily make an item crafted by an experienced craft much better than what can drop off a pve mob.
  4. t209

    t209 Cupcake

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    Well, I actually had hard time trying to play catch up with my weapons and armor (I have the gun from spider's quest in Auroria but the armor is either type I or II titanium armor with modification to grit). I only managed to get to salvage tech quickly since I tend to sell or salvage my old gears (especially the one with vastly low levels).
    Then again this is my first time playing mmorpg game.
  5. RavenWind

    RavenWind Well-Known Cupcake

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    WEll, most people play MMORPGs to fight with the MOBS, delve into the Dungeons, and reveal the Story of the Game. There are those that strictly enjoy crafting but they are a minority. Accepting this, you will see it doesn't make sense to put the best gear into the crafting system. The best gear is where most people put their efforts. No I don't think Crafting will be irrelevant, but I don't agree with your statement that it was irrelevant in every other MMO. I DO think W* crafting will be a step above past MMO based on what I have seen playing the beta.

    I would also point out the Settler Path mechanic in the game. It is , in its way, also a type of crafting, though not thru a profession or as complex as a profession. Can't think of how many times I threw down a Vendbot or Campfire for folks in the middle of nowhere.
  6. Niobe315

    Niobe315 New Cupcake

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    Does anyone know a good guide to crafting yet? I've tried some crafting in beta, but admittedly got frustrated and went to back to questing(so many quests to do, I love it!). If anyone knows a good guide can they please post it up here, I would really appreciate it. :)
  7. Benevon

    Benevon Cupcake-About-Town

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    Why do you need the "best" gear anyway?
    You get the best raiding gear through raiding, so you can progress in....raiding.
    You get the best pvp gear in pvp, so you can progress in....pvp.

    I never understood why people complain that you have do the more hardcore content to get the best stats. If you aren't doing that content, why do you need it? (aesthetics aside). And I am a pretty casual player myself.
  8. RavenWind

    RavenWind Well-Known Cupcake

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    Niobe, there are crafting guides kind of built into the game with the Schematic Tree and the Work Order board, they pretty much give you all the info you need to start "leveling up". WIth things like this and the RNG(Random Number Generation) factor involved in crafting Carbine is trying to avoid the Cookie Cutter method of crafting that spawns such online guides. Not that they won't eventually appear but they won't be so straightforward.

    I would point you towards YouTube and Anhrez for good guides on how crafting works as opposed to step-by-step How To Craft.
  9. ImpactHound

    ImpactHound Cupcake-About-Town

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    It's worth crafting for the vanity skins of certain weapons and armor, consumables, and housing elements. It seems to be more useful crafting than it did in WoW, especially if you solo(the weapon upgrades are more reliable and better at level than quest rewards)
  10. Domi Dayglow

    Domi Dayglow Super Cupcake

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    Here is a nice collection of guides that give a nice overview: http://www.wildstarfans.net/p/guides.html

    I think that for anything more indepth we will have to wait a while. At least until after launch when people have plenty of time to delve into it.
  11. Hermes

    Hermes Cupcake

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    On an individual level raiding (40-man in particular) does not require the most effort. The important part is the leadership and raid organisation, not the players themselves. Anyone who isn't a bad player can raid and get the best gear by investing at most 5 hours every night 5 days a week.
    The only time exceptional individual skill and massive time investment (12-hour + raid sessions etc) becomes a factor is when guilds are competing for world firsts and within guilds doing new content before any official strategy guides have been released (usually the first three weeks of new content).

    I can say based on experience that even moderately high ranked server first guilds usually have a number of average/good-but-nothing-special players who just log on for raiding to get their gear. Raiding effort is mostly about social commitment and a couple of officers with deep knowledge of game mechanics and good organizational skills.
    In a usual server first guild there are a handful of demon players with skills sufficient enough for any guild in the world (these players usually have the highest attendance as well as the most demanding and difficult personalities) and another 30 average players working as fillers. Almost everyone is replaceable.

    Raiding does require effort, just not so much on an individual level. The main difference I've noticed between a server first and a server second or third guild is that the people organizing the raids are much better in the top guild. The individual player skill and the individual time investment is not very different.

    Just because grinding for materials to craft doesn't require skill it doesn't mean people doing that sort of thing are necessarily unskilled and just because someone is a member of a server first guild it doesn't mean he or she is necessarily a great player (there are even bad players in raiding guilds who will fail at anything other than standing in one spot and spamming one button while watching a ton of add-ons).
    In terms of time commitment however the hardcore grinder usually puts in two to three times as much time as an average raider, therefore a long grind requires more effort in that aspect. Take vanilla WoW as an example, individually it required more effort to become a rank 14 in pvp than to raid AQ.

    When I had finished grinding my rank 14 in WoW the top raiding guild on that sleepy server (they were still doing Blackwing Lair when other servers were deep into AQ) sent out their dual wielding master theory crafting warrior primadonna to declare on the forums that I was an "unskilled no-lifer who failed at both WoW and life" among other things, simply because I had better gear than anyone in that guild and they felt entitled because of their "skill".
    When I raided in TBC and became the by far most high performing member in a very good guild those kind of people found other arguments to use against me. It wasn't about my skill or commitment, just about me not conforming to MMO raid guild hegemony. I was still an individualist even when raiding and I didn't kiss up to anyone and that is the most unacceptable thing you can ever do in an MMO-community built on raid elitism. People must "know their place" and let the raid guilds be the kid locked in the candy store after closing hours, that's what it all comes down to.

    To sum it up, I see nothing wrong with players grinding for materials and crafting the best gear. I've never played in a raiding guild which wasn't holding my own progress back and I got tired of guild jumping just to prove myself all over again to a new bunch of elitists. I would love an MMO centered around crafting the best items and it's a shame Wildstar doesn't offer that option.
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  12. Benevon

    Benevon Cupcake-About-Town

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    My only problem with crafting in a lot of MMOs (besides that I always found it a bit boring lol just my opinion there) is that it rarely generated money. In that aspect I can see being able to craft the good gear, though it still shouldn't take away the time the raiders/pvpers put in to get their respective gear. WoW was really bad with crafting stuff that only YOU could use. That's why I always just grab gathering professions and sell the mats. Money money money MONEY!
  13. Felion

    Felion Cupcake-About-Town

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    1. I agree, this is why I hesitate to join in the bigger guilds, unless I know the leadership in that guild and I like how they do things. I don't want to be replaceable, it's either a defined role or I go solo. I play with my irl friends, so we always form small circles above all else.

    2. I apologize first before I say this, I can be wrong, but I have limited information so I can only base my analysis on what I've previously seen. Based on the face value of someone telling me that he has been targeted and hated by many different groups of people over and over again, I will first look for clues in how HE was doing things. Maybe there's something that he does that piss people off. Maybe he kept looking in the wrong places and hence land himself in the wolf den every time. I'm NOT trying to give you a lecture or anything, but if you've had such a bad experience with people when I have had pleasant experience, I just feel that I should at least try to give some suggestions in the hope that maybe some of these are useful to you and make your future experiences better.

    I don't know what you mean by "the group getting in your way of progression", I hope you don't mean gear-conflicts or whatnot. And when you say "individualist when raiding", I hope you're still playing nice with everyone instead of say rolling and winning on everything. People keep speaking of the elitist raiders, I know that they exist and I've seen it first hand, but in my experience for every elitist or dog-eat-dog guild there is always a benevolent and loving guild doing similar stuff, so pardon me if I am not entirely convinced about your assessment of raiding guilds, I just have a hard time believing that it's always my good luck in over a decade of gaming that I keep bumping into good people when you keep bumping into bad ones... If nothing else, maybe there are better ways to evaluate a group of people before joining them.

    Perhaps most importantly, I think you're mistaken some basic human behaviours from raiders-only behaviours. I've spent a long time in all kinds of guilds including big raiding guilds, smaller raiding family guilds, leveling/socializing guilds, RP guilds, Hardcore PvP guilds, casual PvP guilds, and of course, my own guild with just a few real life friends. Hierarchy exist everywhere as soon as you have more than 1 person. In a 2 people relationship, there's the dominating one and a more submissive one. In small guilds, there are ones calling the shots and ones that everyone cares for. In RP guilds there are drama, in PvP guilds there are drama, in raiding guilds there are drama too. As for "elitist attitude", I've seen it everywhere, from PvE to PvP to RP. Sometimes it's the "reverse elitism" as in actively bashing and looking down on raiders/hardcore players based on things like "you don't have a life" or something like that --- It's the same thing, it's active segregation, to me the hostility is just equally as bad no matter what the context is.

    Hierarchy exist in societies because it is a very efficient way to accomplish goals, that's why the cells in your body differentiate and organize into different roles, in essence your physical body is a community of single living cells. Having hierarchy doesn't necessarily introduce conflict, sometimes it does, and that's an unfortunate necessary evil of "community" --- ANY kind of it. Not saying that you HAVE to compromise to others, but if you want to involve heavily into any community, compromise is not only a rule, but a founding principal that is key to its success. Again though, you don't HAVE to get yourself in there, I mean afterall we've had to deal with groups of people in real life everyday, sometimes we want to take a break. Certainly some people enjoy working by themselves more than working with others, they might be more productive that way too. I'm just saying, it's probably not a "raider" problem because it is universal. If you're into hardcore PvP or hardcore RP you'll find the same "elitism".

    3. As mentioned many times, the gears are different. If you do not want to raid, you can certainly work on crafting and craft the best solo gears there are, and these solo gears are certainly much better for you than raid gears that piles a ton of raiding stats and not enough survival/balanced stats. You'll have fun working toward that goal of crafting the best solo gear, because I suspect that won't be trivial.

    The thing is you keep getting frustrated over "something that is not practical to me but is a little 'better' is out there", what does this 'better' mean? Aside from just a number, it simply means what you fear to be people's general opinion. It's like saying Gucci is 'better' than a tailor made best quality hand bag. Your dislike "elitism" so much, why are you at the same time getting yourself stuck in that mentality of "gotta get this so I can be liiiite"? You've invested so much into keeping your individuality, it baffles me why you'd still make decision based on "what others might think" instead of "what would be good for me". If you want to get away from the crowd, the first thing is to drop the crowd mentality. Soloing is supposed to free you of the shackles, stop worrying about what other people think of you or "rate" you, stop worrying about how to beat others, I mean isn't that the best part of it? And when you don't care about those things, you'll suddenly find yourself a lot more compatible with the raiders too. When you're finished each solo journey and want to mingle with people, instead of jumping to your feet whenever they brag about their gears, you can now say "Oh wow that's so nice! Looks good on ya! Btw I've got some real luck too today, I finally got enough XXX mineral and made myself this server first solo gear!"
  14. Hermes

    Hermes Cupcake

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    You are partly right. I am not the easiest person to play with in a guild hierarchy but it's also not true that the same type of structures found in raiding guilds can be found in every area of an MMO or life beyond that. When I did PvP and gradually improved my gear and became known as a capable player, groups (premades in PvP) would form naturally without any internal competition. Same with small scale PvE. I was appreciated and had friends among other non-conformists, casuals etc and even within raiding guilds although a majority of people might not have liked me. My preferred group size is three people.

    A much more malignant attitude than being an individualist is when certain groups of players take it upon themselves to dictate a general coutume for the community where non-conformists are stigmatized. Basically what I call raid guild hegemony.

    As for slowing my progress. What I mean is simply that the 75% of average/filler members would cause encounters to sometimes take days to weeks longer than necessary when myself and some others would ace our roles even in the hard fights in a night or two and from there stay on a high performance level.

    My point was that raiders are not necessarily more skilled and certainly do not put in as much time playing as some more grind oriented players so I see nothing wrong in gathering and crafting giving the best gear. I'm now speaking generally without considering specific game mechanics such as raid stats, since this thread made a reference to SWG.
    Wildstar is however a raid-focused game and it's impossible to attract large raiding player bases without making the game so that raiding is the final and ultimate form of progress. Still, considering that only a couple dozen guilds in the world can be considered to be made up of only "skilled" players making a great effort (namely those guilds who clear new content in the first weeks before any tactics exist on the internet) raiding for the other 99% of players is just a system to create an elitist structure in the community where all non raiders are forced into a "casual" play style.

    I question statements such as "raiding requiring the most effort". If you are going for world first it certainly does. If you're the tactical officer and raid leader it also surely does but for all the other raiders, the majority, it requires far less effort than some solo based type of play (rank 14 grind in vanilla WoW etc). What raiding does is reward cooperation, not level of individual effort. This team effort is for most participants far less demanding than a serious solo grind. The hardest part is organizing a guild, not doing the actual playing, and in time investment the only limit to solo play is where the developers place the roof. There were far more AQ geared people in vanilla WoW than there were Grand Marshals, on any high populated server, a fact which speaks for itself when deciding what requires "the most effort". If developers make crafting very time consuming it will require more individual effort than raiding.

    Raiding is not about "how far can I go?" it's just a segregated end game putting a roof on individual effort (for me it did so even within a good raiding guild when others didn't perform on the same level and the guild didn't raid as much as I was prepared to do) and in the process creating some of the most vile structures of the MMO-world where players instead of asking themselves how far they can go have to ask themselves to which extent they will have to sell their soul in order to progress. Most raiders are kids locked in candy stores after closing hours and that's why they will fight as hard for their system as a cartel exploiting a market or a north korean general will fight for theirs. So they are "skilled" put in "the most effort" etc, all of which is really nonsense. They just bond together and accept certain hierarchies, that's all.
  15. Hob

    Hob Cupcake

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    There were more AQ geared people than Grand Marshals and High Warlords simply due to the fact that only one person per week max could attain that rank. It also wasn't necessarily an individual effort because on most servers there were the honor grinding groups where they all took turns grinding together to reach that rank. Did it take a ton of effort to reach Grand Marshal? Yes. To the point where most I knew that did reach it quit their jobs, or had friends help play their account for them. Worst PVP system in MMO history as far as I'm concerned.


    It's evident you haven't had the greatest experiences with raiding. I've had some awful experiences myself. I came to WoW from UO and DAoC with a heavy PVP background and no raiding experience. I only got into raiding in WoW because of friends and figured I'd give it a shot, and I got pretty hard into it. With that said, one cannot simply say "this takes more skill or individual effort" than another system because ultimately it depends on the MMO, and the systems they have in place. I enjoy all aspects of MMO's, and have partaken in each at extremely hardcore levels at various points. Based upon my experience in solo, PVP, and raiding content, I can say that depending on the systems they can all be equally challenging for the individual and time consuming. Painting people and systems with broad brushes doesn't make for very good arguments.
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  16. Hermes

    Hermes Cupcake

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    Actually the "one per week" was a myth. I became rank 14 the same week as one other player on the same faction. We believed the stories about one per week until we met the same day outside that officers hall, whatever it was called, in Stormwind to get our weapons. We were surprised but apparently two per week was possible.
    It wasn't necessarily an individual effort but unlike raiding there was the option to grind individually. Around 60% of my time was individual, 40% in a team.

    I agree that system was bad since it required non stop play to keep your rank from decaying. If looking at crafting however, if it took a month or so to grind some of the most rare materials, another month to grind other materials etc and then make one piece of gear it could allow for crafting based progression for as long as people were willing to play and allow people to take a week or a month off and do other things. Just make the overall time requirement huge without forcing players to play 15 hours a day non stop. It would mean a decent amount of players could have one good item but only a small number on every server would have a full set or similar.

    All PvE is mechanical with predetermined patterns, even when encounters change from week to week the patterns are not completely random. Any pattern can be learned without much difficulty and from having watched movies of Wildstar raids it's obvious Wildstar is no exception. Anyone who raided in WoW will immediately recognize the principles of raid PvE.

    Large group based battles with predetermined patterns intended for 40 people cannot be about mainly individual skill because then hardly any guild would be able to do the content at all. Same goes for time invested, the only thing a seriously demanding time investment does is speed up progression rate and the vast majority of guilds are nowhere near that level anyway. As stated, in WoW it was a couple dozen guilds worldwide playing on that level, in Wildstar there will likely be even less than that. 98% of raiding guilds are de facto "large fish in small pond" or if you will "kid locked in candy store". Therefore I think analogies involving cartels, north korean military brass or iranian priests are applicable since it's about maintaining a form of nepotism which does not necessarily require "skill" but which effectively excludes the non-privileged.
    My example of the Blackwing Lair-raiding, adult l33t man is very representative of the false sense of entitlement of raiders. Any raid-based game will cater to those people and to an extent influence a community. I can still play a game which incorporates raiding but I don't view it as ideal.
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  17. Nexus Elites

    Nexus Elites Cupcake

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    You know Hermes, after reading your thoughts about MMO PvE in this thread, you've actually caused me to reach an epiphany. You're actually right on everything you said. We're fighting against a computerized encounter, and there's only so much you can do with artificial intelligence before "real" intelligence takes over, and trumps it. Sure, new encounters will cause wipes until you learn them and master them, but maybe that's the issue. You go into a raid already knowing, that at some point, you WILL kill the bosses in there.

    In WoW, I considered myself an elitist. Not in the sense that I thought I was necessarily better than everyone else, but in the sense that I knew what I was doing, and tried surrounding myself with those same types of players. I had to, being a guild leader. What eventually happened was my recruitment came up short, and instead of finding other elitist types, I ended up finding people who didn't put in the time and effort that I did, to be "good" at this game. Sure, there were the types that could do really good dps if put in a position where they could plant their feet and spam a repetitive rotation for 5 minutes, but when it came to moving out of "bad" and avoiding mechanics, they weren't the greatest. My overall enjoyment of the game revolved around 9 other people not dying to something stupid, and in the end, I found myself spending more time on the recruitment forums than actually playing the game. This is what ultimately drove me away. The people. And its funny to say that, because you're supposed to want to play with other people on an MMO lol.

    I'm getting off topic here, but I wanted to make a point that correlated with what you've been saying. Just because you're a "raider" doesn't necessarily mean you're better than a player that chooses to grind materials and resources on an MMO. I've met a lot of what most would call "casual players" over the years, that never stepped foot in a raid, and they've turned out to be one of the better players I've ever had a chance to play with. I fully had plans on making or joining a semi-hardcore raiding guild on WildStar, but after reading your posts, I'm starting to rethink it. I can still feel like an elitist and not have to raid to prove my worth, and I think that might be what you're trying to say. WoW turned into the World of Raidcraft, and forced a lot of average/mediocre players into the raiding scene that didn't necessarily have the skill to be there, but since that's where the best gear came from, they felt the need to do it anyway. Seeing that Wildstar has 40-man raids, that's even more room for people to get carried than in WoW's 10 and 25-mans. After saying all of this, Wildstar does have "hardcore" solo and small group content, and maybe that's what I will strive for. I just have a feeling that the raiding scene will wind up being just like WoW's, and full of people that are the "Haha, I'm raiding, and that means I'm better than you" kind. We shall see.
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  18. Convicted

    Convicted Super Cupcake

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    These 2 quotes seem to contradict each other, since all a player needs is "time" to defeat raids, their skill really doesn't matter at all, it's just a matter of when they finally memorize the pattern.
    You would think that this concept would have been the most encouraging factor in classic Wow, because every player would be guaranteed to be decked out in Naxx and AQ gear as quickly as they could memorize the patterns, so their fear of not being skilled enough wouldn't even enter their minds with this knowledge out there.
  19. Livnthedream

    Livnthedream Super Cupcake

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    Not really, because its mostly accurate. Games in general are nothing but pattern recognition. Its why the same parts of the brain or engaged for most types of games.
  20. Nexus Elites

    Nexus Elites Cupcake

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    I guess I could've worded it better. You need a certain skill level I guess, to defeat normal mode raids, but in the end, even the worst of guilds will more than likely overcome the encounters at some point. The difference will be how fast guilds clear the content, that will determine the "skill level" of their raid team.

    To me, any average player is capable of doing 1 of 2 things: Good DPS (or healing/tanking), or avoiding mechanics. A really good player is able to do both without hurting their output. Raiding is all a learning curve. In WoW, there were times when I didn't even have to watch my boss mod timers, because I knew when certain things were about to happen just from doing the encounter so much.

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