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Crafting, waste of time like other MMOs?

Discussion in 'WildStar General' started by Jackwagon, Mar 27, 2014.

  1. Felion

    Felion Cupcake-About-Town

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    Let me address them point by point, there's a lot of information in there.

    1. Let me try to explain better. The same structure has to apply to every community --- The underlying principal is the very essence of organisms, and those basic principals will not change no matter what the specific situation is. HOWEVER, the environments are different, even though the principals are the same, so the outcomes are different. Kinda like F = MA is true, but given different M of course you'll get different F. I'm not saying that it'll be EXACTLY the same, but there WILL be differentiation and/or hierarchy if a community would like to function most efficiently. Exactly how that happens and whether if there are extra side-affects is up to the specific situation.

    I get what you mean by having some strangers that do not really interfere with you, I really do. I've been doing that for quite a while too. But you see, the key here is "strangers" and "distance" ---- You're a very very loosely bonded community, and each probably intentionally keep your own distance so you don't step on someone else' boundaries. There's not much obligation towards each other hence there's not much demand. But even in this case, compromise happen at all levels, if you have to stay and keep someone else alive instead of just run out of combat to save yourself, that's compromise too. It's just that the compromise doesn't need to reach the raiding guild level --- and that is because the sense of community is purposely regulated in these loose groups. If you give it enough time, say a few people who loosely bond together decides to always spend time playing together, and set some common goals, very quickly hierarchy will appear. No matter how you'd regulate yourself, there's gotta be someone who calls the shot, even if you vote there's gotta be someone who says "OK let's vote". And there's gotta be dividing of work or else it's just way too inefficient. What I mean is, it's not a whole different beast, it is the same ultimate system but the variables are different so you end up with different types of communities.

    Like I said I've been in both very tight groups and loose communities, I can only say that each have its benefits and problems, it's up to yourself to choose. Tight groups take a LOT of energy from you, but at the same time when it pays off it pays off BIG. Loose groups can have very hyper moments too, but not nearly as emotionally overwhelming as that of a tight group when stars align. On the other hand, in a tight group where everyone has compromised so much and cared so much, the tension can quickly rise if something goes wrong. This simply doesn't happen in loose groups, so we get a feeling that loose groups are more "carefree" and "understanding". Literally, a lot of it have to do with "care-free". And like I said, this trend is true for not only raiding guilds, but RP guilds, PvP guilds, so on. Just to different degree and with different focus.

    2. You mean like the founding fathers? The "non-conformists" who don't abide by the system are of course, criminals, who are stigmatized... See this is just too general of a statement to make. I get what you mean, but again this is how communities work --- if you are "completely free", you should be able to murder someone. Why don't you? Aside from all emotional/ethical/personal considerations, there's the fact that you'd get thrown into jail. It is the community's way of forcing individuals into compromise, obviously without a justice system/collective effort to keep the community intact, just imagine how the world would spin into chaos. Any community, anywhere, from the USA to tribes in Australia, from wolves to ants, even at a cellular level in your own body, these regulation happens. If one of your cell misbehave (cancerous, or simply mal-function), the immune system kicks in and kill that cell, recycle all the parts, and make a new one. When immune system fail? The cancer spreads and you die to it.

    I gotta clear the air though, I'm not saying everyone should abide absolutely to the rules that are made up by whoever. But the very act of setting down some rules and attempting to enforce it within a community is not a crime, it is a necessity. HOW someone goes about doing it, and WHAT rules exactly are they trying to enforce, these details will determine everything.

    3. Oh OK, makes sense now. I get what you mean. I am perfectly fine with wasting 6 hours of my playing time with noobs who can't stay out of fire as long as those noobs are good people. But I've wasted so many 6 hours to know that this definitely can make me think twice before joining a group. But you see, guilds are better than pugs, which is kinda why in wotlk I eventually just went into a guild (along with my 3 irl friends) that kept asking us to join --- They are good people, and they don't wipe to fire. Also, I wanted to go for server first 'cause it's fun to do, and that just ain't happening with pugs.

    4. Exactly, and keeping this in mind, they've obviously tried to make things work for people who do not enjoy the raiding guild environment --- They try to differentiate between solo PvE/group PvE, they really worked at the crafting and did a whole lot with housing and other sandbox-ish features. You gotta know what's a reasonable goal given certain restrictions, which is this case right now.

    5. Raids are demanding, they are. They can be very exhausting. I'm not talking about just 1 night of raid, I'm talking about the fact that you gotta plan your whole week's schedule and then whole months of schedule and then whole year of schedule according to it, spare 3 hours 3 times a week, maybe skip dinner, aggro your spouse, give up some sleep, but you've gotta be there at that time, ready to do what you do. You don't have the freedom to do it on your schedule because 24 or 39 other people need to find the same time. You can't be late or skip because 24 or 39 other people will be screwed. You can't half-ass your play because everyone's tense and on their toe and if you mess up people get upset. Stakes are high and pressure is on, raiding time has got to be focus time. This is why I preferred pugging for a while, it just seemed way too exhausting to raid on regular hours again. But see, it's not the "individual skill" that's the point, it is the high pressure and the demanding schedule that makes it "hard" on the individual level. I definitely admire those people who show up months after months on-time, prepared, ready to go (I wasn't, I've been late and I've skipped, although I always inform beforehand). I've got several server first kills and I was frequently on the front page of world of logs healing rank for all encounters, but none of that was "hard" for me, what was really hard for me was having to juggle my life to fit the schedule --- It was hard, yet rewarding.

    So why do they get the best reward? For all those nights that you could only get 3 hours of sleep before getting up to work, for all the spouse aggro and girlfriend threaten to walk out on you, there's gotta be something quite rewarding at the other end. To me, really, the challenge itself is rewarding enough. But for other people who're perhaps more reluctant, the reward simply needs to be comparably better.

    You make a good point that all games are pattern recognition, the patterns themselves are relatively easy to find too compared to some of the patterns in the real world. Hence eventually, given enough observations these patterns can be found. But same thing can be said about everything in the world. In ANY analytical thinking about anything, pattern recognition is the underlying mechanism. Science is based on it. Common sense is based on it. Knowledge in general is based on it. Basically, problem solving, puzzle solving, the games that we play from chess to Wildstar are all just puzzles. There are however harder and easier puzzles, which basically is determined by the complexity of the patterns, and how many variables/interweaving patterns are involved. In most situations player versus player provides a LOT of variables and hence are harder to predict, but this is not always the case. Player versus Player also have patterns though, mind you, that's why PvP eventually becomes quite repetitive too. If anything, higher level player are easier to predict since they tend to optimize their decision (computational models have been built on Starcraft to optimize winning chance), whereas new players sometimes perform random acts due to not fully understanding the consequences, which make the other side needing to rely more on reaction instead of predictions. But still, most of the patterns (movements, spells available, likely casting sequence, likely plan etc) are still very much similar (in a distribution sense) across all players. Aside from pattern recognition, there is also reaction and execution, which is the primary source of errors to big groups such as raids, as it gets amplified individually whereas pattern recognition is shared. I wouldn't call one thing necessarily "harder" than the other, it's difficult to define "hard" in this context anyways. But it certainly isn't trivial, especially considering Wildstar's telegraph based action combat.

    6. Gotta enjoy the process, and gotta look at the bright side. If your only grudge is that you don't get to work with the best individuals and/or don't get to raid enough, why not consider joining the best? Work towards joining the world top guilds, switch to their server, and try to get in. With enough work I think anyone can potentially get in, especially if you're confident of your own talents.

    7. You have to ask yourself that question every second in life buddy. Then you've gotta REALLY ask yourself that question whenever there's a big decision to be made in life. But this is how you distil yourself of all the early fairy tale ideas implanted into you --- By throwing them out one by one, in the end you leave the most important value to you, and this value simply can't be touched --- It has went through many many battles against many many other values and it won. This is how you get to the core of the soul. I'm just saying, don't shy away from those moments where you need to make a decision --- Chances are, eventually you'd need to make a decision between them anyways, better now than never, get a clearer picture of what you truely want and value early on.

    Now on the topic, competitiveness and tunnel-vision sometimes bring out the worst in me, and sometimes I would be tempted to do things that I would not prefer to see myself doing, so I know what you're saying. Unless what you're saying is going back to the hierarchy argument and saying that you have to bribe the officers, in which case I think that's being unreasonably paranoid.

    8. I don't quite get this, yes of course they just bond together and accept the rules/hierarchy that evolves. So is the first multicellular organism on earth. So is any human communities anywhere. And of course they'd be protective of the hierarchy, else things fall apart for the said community. I'm sensing that you're trying to belittle raiders, but I don't quite get how this statement belittles them.
  2. Fishsticks

    Fishsticks Cupcake-About-Town

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  3. AcidBaron

    AcidBaron "That" Cupcake

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    It's not a waste if you want to raid early in, several recipes are good alternatives they do require a good amount of mats that are not too easy to come by.
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  4. Felion

    Felion Cupcake-About-Town

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    I've looked more into it and tried it out this past weekend, I liked what I was seeing. Crafting will likely remain quite relevant in the game, in multiple areas they remain the best gearing options or at least reasonable substitute, especially considering the overcharge system. It'll be a big money maker I think, as each person will be specializing in both schematics as well as talents. For the purpose of making money, switching talents + making particular overcharged gears will drive up the cost a lot and sometimes the patterns aren't easy to access, so it probably won't happen often, most of the time mass producing high level crafters will stick to their own niche.

    Another thing is the customization --- tier gears aren't necessarily the best looking. I suspect a lot of vanity gears will be made. And vanity items in terms of Architects.
  5. Hermes

    Hermes Cupcake

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    No one has any "right" to enforce any rules on any individual solo player in an MMO. The rules are already set by the developers and are in game mechanics and user agreements. For example, the raid guild who flamed me for having soloed myself to better gear than them did it because I broke the social code and didn't respect their supreme right as the highest form of players. My role in their eyes was as a "casual" and it was wrong of the developers to even allow me to grind.

    Raiders spending considerably less time than a hardcore solo grinder while fighting bosses with patterns which in difficulty are similar to or easier than early bosses in Yoshi's Island (with the remaining variable being gear) just to eventually down that boss weeks after the best guilds in the world and then feel entitled because of it are big fish in a small pond and haven't really done anything more impressive or difficult than someone who grinded his gear.

    The fact that the game mechanics favor cooperation is the only thing working in favor of raiders. It's not about their effort as much as their will to bond together. Once that structure is set and up and running, raiding is like stealing candy from a child and this is where the cartel mentality sets in, "this is ours for the taking and no one should change that since it will break the game if someone putting in more individual effort can actually get better rewards than us!" It's the reason why raiders are so fiercely against individual players having the option to grind gear which equals raiding gear (not considering game specific raid stats) and the reason why mediocre raiding guilds could be seen flaming and trying to socially stigmatize, and very much belittle, rank 14 pvp players in vanilla WoW.

    When justifying raiding as a higher form of achievement (in terms of effort) raiders frequently make use of the paradox of intolerance which in the real world usually manifests as someone with a lot of experience being told to "go study" while someone with extensive knowledge is being told to "travel, go see for yourself".
    In a game it's more like "well, we actually put in some time unlike casuals" but when a soloer grinds himself to better gear than raiders the argument is instead "well at least we have lives to worry about". So raiders are always right, others are always wrong and raiding always requires the "highest effort and should therefore give the best rewards" in the eyes of raiders.
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  6. Omerta

    Omerta New Cupcake

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    I have found the armor crafting to be very useful while leveling. The base armor stats are almost always better than quest rewards and then you can custom tweak your craft to whatever stat you are targeting. You want all power, all crit, all HP, all deflect, etc. You can make it however you want it seems.
  7. Felion

    Felion Cupcake-About-Town

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    1. No individual by himself/herself has any "right" period. "Rights" are the product of communities, they are the very community rules. They are, in essence, what the society you live in would ALLOW any individual IN THAT SOCIETY to do. But that of course only applies to individuals within that society. Across different societies it just doesn't apply. Sheeps may have their own rights within their circle (lead male, elders and young) but the wolves don't care, they eat what they need to eat. Attempting to apply sheep's "rights" to the wolves of course doesn't work, it doesn't work because it was a logical violation --- The "IF" statement starts by assuming the same society, when the IF isn't satisfied, nothing follows. So you see, the problem that some raiders have is extending the rules beyond the border of their own community, NOT having rules by itself. Again, I'm only having problem with your statements keep resembling a bigger political/philosophical bias. Communities evolve rules, and rulers. Without these rules and collective effort there won't even be a "right" to speak of. So the mere fact that raiding guilds often have rules does not warrant any attack, it simply must happen. It's like attacking the sun for rising every morning. In your particular case though, I think the problems are 1) they extended their own community rules outside of their community, a logic flaw. Some raiders do it, but I really think it's a people issue, not a system issue, because you see these kinds of things everywhere in humanity. And 2) That particular rule (can't have better gears than raiders) is not nearly an universal mentality, I think you just met some bad people.

    2. Again, I tell you with all honesty that it happens to all aspects of human life, not just raiders. Have you played one of those Asian grinders back in the days? What do those solo grinder do when they finally got their shiny sword? Some of them would gladly shove it in your face and claim superiority. And PvP players, we don't even need to start with how many of them would look down on PvEers as "no skill", "casual", "softies", whatever. Even RPers, there are plenty of grammar nazis (OK, sometimes it bothers most of us when someone doesn't pay any attention to grammar/spelling, but I mean these are REAL grammar nazis) in the RP community and they extend their criticism WAY beyond the RP boundaries. This mentality by itself, I state again, is a human condition, one that we try to hide away but would always come back up due to nature. You give a bunch of players a coloring pad and soon they'll compete against each other to see who finishes coloring first, or who did it most meticulously, and SOME of them would look down on those who did not meet their own criteria --- Like I said in point 1, it's a logic flaw, but there will be people doing it. Your problem is with those people, if you don't realize this then it'll always pop back up even if you're able to crucify all raiders and stop raiding from happening in mmos. You can hop over to sandbox games with no PvE contents and you'd still see people shoving their pride in your face --- These are people you ignore, or if you have so much patience you can try to talk some sense into them, some will learn from reason, some will need a few more years, some will never learn, and the worst kinds do not even care (this has no solution). And that's just the world you and I have to deal with.

    When you're attacking the raiders (and you do this on a large scale, you're literally talking about all raiders instead of referring those problematic ones) it borders dangerously close to the very same "superiority mentality" that you are against, that's why I keep trying to pull you into individual cases and really focus on what you're trying to battle against.

    3. It goes hand in hand. Bonding together requires a lot of effort, and it is certainly not easy. I'm not terribly good at social bonding, which is why I know how hard it is. 2 hours at a banquet makes me a LOT more tired than spending a whole day doing experiments or programming. Some people have it natural and have it easy, and that's a gift I often wish I have. Just like I have gifts in other areas that others would admire. The point is, don't look down onto another thing just because you're not doing it, it goes both ways.

    4. Again, it's community rules. If allowing certain things to happen may end up hurting the community as a whole, of course it aims to stop it from happening. Like you said, allowing alternative access to exactly the same thing will dilute ANY particular method, and too bad raiding is something that requires a lot of people so dilution is not good. So there's not much choice there. And I do not agree with the fact that you're referring to solo game play as "more individual effort", it simply is hard to compare between different styles since the emphasis are on very different aspects of human cognition, but this doesn't mean you can say "soloing takes more effort". Simple example: I solo a lot. I solo a lot because it's easier than finding a group. It's easier than finding a group because it takes time to find a group and then there's a bunch of responsibility and all those attachments that I have to deal with, and dealing with those can be exhausting. Which means, for me personally, soloing is easier than grouping in general. I have fun in both, but unless it is a challenge that I cannot possibly do by myself, I'd rather take the easier way and solo. But for those challenges that I cannot possibly do by myself, I'd get in a different mentality, start communicating, and the fun I get from the end result is very unique, something that I do cherish even though I don't necessarily do it all the time. Of course this doesn't make me a worse player compared to those who group up all the time, but at the same time, it doesn't make me a better player.
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  8. Kalmander

    Kalmander Well-Known Cupcake

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    I have not played it, but it does look pretty decent (from videos at least). It would be interesting to see how much you can overcharge an item, and how good it will get.

    I mean, if I can overcharge an item at max level that has a 90% failure change, with only a 10% success rate, and I do craft it properly, how good will it be? I would expect it to be pretty mean...
  9. Bloodclott

    Bloodclott Cupcake

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    Later on in the game (Wilderunn and Malgrave specifically; Farside at the earliest) cooking becomes incredibly useful as it gives you buffs and definitely helps keep you alive in some of the dangerous areas were enemies have constant patrols.
  10. Hermes

    Hermes Cupcake

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    Yes, raid guilds bully people by trying to extend their social norms beyond the guild itself and it's quite possible to marginalize individual players through such bullying especially when other players can clearly see that the raid guilds have the best rewards and must therefore be "better" than others. It's one problem with a loot drop based PvE progression Theme Park MMO. Gear matters if you want to be well known and noticed and it's the only way to become stronger. To the extent that some players will be more friendly or rude based on what gear you have (I personally never treat lesser geared with contempt but a lot of people do). I would prefer the best gear to come from crafting.

    In this case any individual can get the best rewards and claim superiority, not just members in a raiding guild. It's a social equalizer.

    As long as I can be in complete control of my own destiny in that sandbox game I don't mind anyone shoving their pride in my face. I'm just against guild elitism where the game gives the best rewards to guilds, not "superiority" in general. I enjoy creating demi-god characters and, coupled with more competitive things, help the weaker players. I've never tried to hide my big ego, I just try to be nice and helpful at the same time. Being in love with yourself doesn't mean you can't spend an entire night just helping some noob you don't know getting some really nice stuff. I only mind noobs, bad players etc when they actively stand in the way of my progress. In all other situations my patience is endless. I will help the nice people and ignore the bad people but I don't want my destiny to be in the hands of a raiding guild in terms of how far I can go.

    I do have a Messiah complex for real and I'm fully aware of it. I see my role in a community as a guardian angel and I appreciate an MMO which let's me play this role. I don't like being the aggressive underdog but rather the benevolent, so full of himself defender of justice who will always lend a helping and comforting hand to the weak. I oppose any game mechanics which don't allow for this.

    For every altruistic individualist elitist in an MMO there are 100 ruthlessly cutthroat collectivist elitists who are either:
    1. Bullies/sadists, 2. "I despise the weak and have no business with them"/"tough luck dude" types or 3. Spineless coat turners and bootlickers.

    My problem is with dependence, not people. I like to socialize but I don't like being forced to socialize over longer periods of time in order to attain some goal. I managed to set my life up to be rather independent, I still have to interact with people but I don't need to kiss up to people or follow other rules than the law and basic decency, and I like doing the same in MMOs (where "the law" translates to game mechanics and user agreements but common decency is the same as in real life).

    I think a game should be enjoyable, not torture. I don't find a rigid guild structure to be hard, I find it agonizing and it makes me depressed.
    Playing solo and in small groups have the opposite effect, it gives me a more positive feeling and let's me enjoy the social aspect the way I like it.
  11. Livnthedream

    Livnthedream Super Cupcake

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    First, you should watch this:
    These games breed "elitism" in every element through empowerment. It has nothing to do with guilds or pvpers, or soloers. You see it in every demographic.

    Second, if the game is not set up in the way you want, why are you arguing to try an change the fundamental basis on which it is designed? Wouldn't it make much more sense to find a game that caters to your playstyle instead? And if it doesn't exist shouldn't you be asking the question as to why?

    Third, solo vs group based will never be equal in the same way that a tank and a healer will never be equal. They are fundamentally different animals, both in terms of mechanics/dynamics but also psychology. Separate but equal doesn't work, because no matter how its setup there will always be inequality.
  12. Hermes

    Hermes Cupcake

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    I always try to make my characters as powerful as possible so I'm an elitist too. I just prefer individual progression elitism. I want a higher goal to aspire to, become recognized and help other players. Being powerful, influential and nice. It's win-win on so many levels. My ego wins, the people I help win, I can still be independent, playing the type of role I like and making friends.

    I've already stated that I can still play a game which incorporates raiding. As long as it's possible to make my main character powerful without raiding. I've given my views on raiding vs crafting but I don't expect an almost finished game to change because of it.

    I'm looking around. The last MMO I enjoyed in terms of character development and atmosphere was taiwanese Dream of Mirror Online but other than that it was a very limited game. With WoW it was the opposite, I loved the vibrant community, smooth battle system, the battlegrounds and large world but hated the character development, raid guild supremacy, loot system and pointless open world PvP.

    Right now there is no game out I think would suit me but I'm keeping my eyes on EverQuest Next and Camelot Unchained. I think some sort of sandbox game is better suited for me. I played Ultima Online when I was so young I hardly understood the mechanics, I didn't really speak english either but that was how I imagined an MMO when I first tried WoW and it actually took me some time to understand what a theme park MMO was and why I started to hate WoW and why it was deeply unfulfilling.
    I also tried some really hollow, pointless games like Warhammer Online (which had the straight jacket limitations of a theme park WoW style MMO but the content of a f2p game in beta) and have been wise to stay away from the genre ever since.

    I guess I'm an extreme minority among gamers, simple as that.
  13. Livnthedream

    Livnthedream Super Cupcake

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    Wildstar is offering that to you though. You are just quibbling over amount. As though sheer item level or color actually matters.

    Your next statement makes this statement a lie.

    No, you are just ignorant. How can you hate the "progression" available to solo players when you still have options to progress fairly effectively on your own? How are you specifying "power" here?
  14. Domi Dayglow

    Domi Dayglow Super Cupcake

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    Well, after a little more experience on the preorder weekends......

    I'm not really sure what I think about the wildstar crafting. It's complicated, intricate, and requires skill. Unlike many other 'get the stuffs and make it' systems in other games.

    Low level crafting (before 20) doesn't really seem that helpful in terms of time or money it takes to create something that you can get from a quest vs. outleveling it. Though it does provide time to collect a lot of materials though and work orders from NPCs help with leveling the tradeskills.

    Still kind of think that technologist was more useful to me in early levels. Being able to create potions that boosted my armor helped against difficult bosses or the bounty board thing.
  15. Livnthedream

    Livnthedream Super Cupcake

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    The only ones I really have experience with are Light+Heavy armor, and weapon crafting. With those most of the strength comes from focusing on the stats you really actually want, especially with a couple of those early bonuses, like sprint/movement speed that you don't get from drops.
  16. Domi Dayglow

    Domi Dayglow Super Cupcake

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    Early level movement, even sprint speed, is very slow and kind of annoying. I thought I could put up with it for the first levels, but after a while it did get tiring. I should try that path this weekend when I make a stalker.
  17. Hermes

    Hermes Cupcake

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    Not sure what you are talking about and what part was a lie.
    With power I mean a character with abilities reaching highest possible level of effect. Kill things faster, survive better, stronger heals, faster casting times etc as well as being noticed just for having extremely good gear (in the case of a gear driven progression).
  18. Livnthedream

    Livnthedream Super Cupcake

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    I don't have an issue with the speed in general, even after switching from a Granok to an Aurin and then to a Mordesh. Run speed is just one of the most powerful tools you have available to you, especially when leveling. It makes it do you take less damage by avoiding telegraphs, and overall your damage increases over time through having high uptimes on mobs, which means far more exp. Run speed is one of the most under estimated stats in all of mmo's.

    Which is your problem. You are trying to compare apples and oranges as though they are actually comparable. No one compares Cheerleading and Gymnastics against each other, even though they are similar activities. Especially when that "raid gear" has so many wasted item points in solo'er focused areas anyway. All of that hit is almost entirely wasted.

    It was a "Lie" because several games give you the ability to continue progression in lieu of raiding but you seemingly are not happy unless you get the same gear as the raiders get. Rift gives you the ability to grind away to raid like epics for example. Are they the same? No, and they shouldn't be. Whether you consider it "worthy" difficulty or not, getting a group together is a difficulty all its own. Getting them to perform together is a difficulty all its own. If it weren't then Dance Dance Revolution would be just as easy by yourself as with a group, and this is far from the case.

    Honestly, based on what you have stated, you should go hit up the SWG EMU project. As that has everything that you have stated is essential to you. I would rather you be happy their then here and unhappy.
  19. Domi Dayglow

    Domi Dayglow Super Cupcake

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    I never really thought about that before. This weekend I'll focus on my medic and movement ability. I should be able to notice a significant difference there. As my other character has been my Esper, but that character's at the new pre-order cap now. The medic is very mobile and should mesh well with crafting such things.
  20. Hermes

    Hermes Cupcake

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2014
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    I want gear which will offer better performance than raid gear in non raid settings. I want superior stats to raid gear in everything except the raid specific +hit and strikethrough. I don't want the same gear. And I want this gear to take a long time to get so no 3 hour every night raider will ever get close to obtaining it if they aren't prepared to invest a lot of extra time.
    I don't want raiders to just pass through this gear and use it to climb higher on the gear tier. I want this gear to truly take a long time to get and to be stronger than raid gear in any PvE-setting which is not a raid.

    I'd rather play single player games than an emulated version of a more than decade-old game. Unlike single player games, MMOs don't age well. However, implementing some of the mechanics of games such as SWG in future games would be a good idea imo.
    I'm not an MMO-junkie constantly jumping to the next new game while considering investing months in low quality games as a "merit". I haven't touched the genre for years and when and if I ever do again I will make sure the game is suited to my taste so I wait, research and see and in the case of Wildstar no official stats of end-game gear have been revealed so there's still the possibility that solo progression will give gear which takes time to get and is superior to raid gear in normal PvE and thus living up to the statements about separate progression paths. Most raiders in here have already interpreted solo/PvE as "casual progression any raider can do in one night" which might still prove to be wrong.

    I don't want another Zul'Aman "Heroic Underbog", "Heroic Caverns of Time" and stuff like that. If that's what solo and small group progression is in relation to raiding I will definitely not play Wildstar. I don't want to be the opening band or whatever.
    In terms of comparing oranges and apples I want to be Miles Davis in comparison to Metallica. Not some small band opening for Metallica. As long as raiders can easily get the solo progression gear as a side project or just as a stepping stone to raiding, I will not be Miles Davis but rather a band of teenagers playing Metallica covers in their basement. Then there is no "oranges and apples" at all, just one type of different qualities.

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