1. Hey Guest! If you're more than just a WildStar fan and want to keep up on the latest MMO news, reviews and opinion pieces then I'd like to suggest you visit our sister site MMO Central

Crafting, waste of time like other MMOs?

Discussion in 'WildStar General' started by Jackwagon, Mar 27, 2014.

  1. Skreamed

    Skreamed New Cupcake

    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2014
    Likes Received:
    2
    Trophy Points:
    3
    Location:
    Bristol, UK
    This might just dump on your "wanting better solo gear than raid gear" requirement :-/

    Edit : not entirely sure how to put quotes in properly on this forum...
    Nexus Elites likes this.
  2. Nexus Elites

    Nexus Elites Cupcake

    Joined:
    Feb 16, 2014
    Likes Received:
    15
    Trophy Points:
    8
    Location:
    Kernersville, North Carolina
    I don't think this is what he is saying entirely. With gear aside, there's just no recognizable "solo content" feats that are respectable in the MMO community anymore (none that I can think of anyway), that can still make you feel like you're a capable player. It's either you raid, or you don't. If you do, you're elite, and if you don't, you're a casual noob.

    When I played WoW, if I wasn't raiding, I felt like I was a towel boy on the sidelines, and I looked at non-raiders in the same light that Hermes is referring to, and I will openly admit it. There are TONS of great players on here and other games that just don't raid for whatever reason. The only thing raiding has that solo content doesn't is the coordination. Once you get your 20 or 40-man roster down, its only a matter of time before everyone learns the patterns and kills the boss. Having watched some of the videos for the first boss in Genetic Archives, its already apparent to me that people can and will get carried in this game, especially after watching ~5 people die in the first minute, and still kill the boss.

    On topic though, I haven't done much crafting on here yet, so I can't comment that much. I would, however, be totally in favor or hard-to-get recipes and rare materials that can craft powerful items that are at least comparable to raid items.

    Edit: Oh, there's also a book out called "In Defense of Elitism" by William A. Henry III. It describes how elitism is a good thing to have in a community, and how equal opportunity does not mean equal outcomes.
    Hermes likes this.
  3. Felion

    Felion Cupcake-About-Town

    Joined:
    Apr 4, 2013
    Likes Received:
    77
    Trophy Points:
    28
    1. SOME, SOME people in SOME raiding guilds do that. You keep forgetting this one thing that's the core idea I'm trying to get across to you. Because not EVERY person in EVERY raiding guild do that, and SOME people in SOME none-raiding guilds do that as well. Generalization do not work here when X doesn't necessarily equal Y and Y doesn't necessarily equal X. This crusade of yours gotta have a boundary, else it's simply as bad or even worse than the very elitism you're trying to fight. which I'll talk about when I get to your 4th point.

    2. Anyone can get in to a raiding guild too and everyone can raid. No mmo has ever said "sorry your account is not leet enough so you'll never be able to raid even if you work towards it". What, working towards what you enjoy is "working" and working towards what you don't enjoy is not? How is that any different than the very people you're trying to accuse?

    You said claim superiority. So you want to be BETTER THAN OTHERS (from definition). And you don't just want to feel like that inside (else you wouldn't need this to be a universal game mechanism, you can just adjust your own mentality), you want to be able to say it, flaunt it, have everyone else recognize it and maybe even flex it in their faces (since you keep saying better, better, better --- Not "similar", but better). You also want the path of getting to this step to go according to your own preferences and what you're good at (keep mentioning raid as if joining a raid guild is "gated" --- It's not. You apply, you join, you raid. Or you don't even need to join a raid guild, you yell in chat or as of recently, you open up LFG and you click. Boom you're in raid. Like most things, it looks absolutely daunting to an outsider no matter how easy it actually is. It suggests that you're not too frequently a part of endgame group PvE at least in recent times, else you wouldn't even have this impression). Again, how is this ANY different from what you're accusing some raiders of doing?

    3. What does "complete control of your own destiny" mean to you? Not being regulated by your genetic and personal history? Not being influence by everyone else who are interconnected in a system? Not knowing only what you know at the moment of any decision and hence cannot possibly "make a different decisions"? I'm sorry but this "complete control of own destiny" statement is just so far in the past that I can't help but feel it is very pretentious. A very pretentious way of saying "I wanna get what I want all the time and hence I should get what I want all the time".

    4. This is what I have feared: watched too much vendetta? There's a difference between being altruistic and being a self-righteous extremist, that line is drawn when you start labeling others one by one as "vermins to be cleansed", like you've just done. Being an extremist is being an extremist is being an extremist, your specific reasons or ideals have absolutely no merit and no significance whatsoever. In fact, most if not all extremists who ever existed in the world have a "reason" and "belief" and probably think they're doing the world a favour when killing hundreds or millions of people. If your reason for being a jerk is "well many others are being jerks so why not me", then what right do you have to call yourself an "individualist" and "none-conformist"? You've not only conformed, but conformed to the worst. You're then absolutely no different from them. You'd cause just as much grief to other people as they do. Again I'm being harsh, from your other posts it doesn't seem like you're out of control, but I've just gotta make it crystal clear that being an "altruistic individualist elitist" is not some glorious trophy that others will cheer about. It's something that if moderated, can sometimes be beneficial. But often than not it overdoses the host, and make you twist into the very beast you're trying to slay. Then, it not only offends the very people you're trying to defend, it also embodies the very aggression that you're trying to pacify. Selfishness in the name of altruism, so to speak. It makes me question myself (since I've always thought you're trying to fight jerkish behaviours which is why I've kept replying) and raise this question to you: "what exactly do you want to battle against? Is it the jerkish attitude and animosity between players? Or simply anyone who's not doing/saying what you'd like to do/hear?"

    5. Think about it, what is "difficulty"? Does it have nothing to do with enjoyment/agony? How would you compare between difficulty of two tasks, if both have the same outcome? What metrics are complexity measured by? Just me talking away here will not do much good, it'll just end up with another wall that no one reads.
    Iymala likes this.
  4. Kalmander

    Kalmander Well-Known Cupcake

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2013
    Likes Received:
    334
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Location:
    Costa Rica, Central America
    Actually, there are some good solo bonuses that could be applied to solo gear only. For example:

    Resource gathering:
    -more resources gathered from nodes
    -higher change of getting rare resources

    Crafting:
    -Increased power grid when crafting (lower failure when overcharging)
    -Greater chance of producing extra items (for consumables)

    Something like that. Sure, resources and crafting items are good for raiders, but those activities are strictly solo activities. You do not party to gather resources (with shared nodes, it's bad to party), and you do not party/raid to craft. So they really are strictly solo activities. I would love to see solo gear give bonuses to those things.
  5. Nexus Elites

    Nexus Elites Cupcake

    Joined:
    Feb 16, 2014
    Likes Received:
    15
    Trophy Points:
    8
    Location:
    Kernersville, North Carolina
    Yeah, those are some nice bonuses, but they're not unique to the non-raiding community, and I think that's what the whole issue is here.

    I think that last solo feat that earned you respect was the green fire warlock quest on WoW. Although I never played a warlock beyond level 10 or so, I heard from lots of people that its legitimately hard.
  6. Hermes

    Hermes Cupcake

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2014
    Likes Received:
    15
    Trophy Points:
    8
    I think you nailed it actually. I guess that's why people call me Hitler. At least I have self irony so maybe I'm more of a "post self-righteous extremist".

    WoW-type theme park MMOs really aren't for me.
    Livnthedream likes this.
  7. Kalmander

    Kalmander Well-Known Cupcake

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2013
    Likes Received:
    334
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Location:
    Costa Rica, Central America
    Well, actually, they are. Crafting is really a solo based activity. No parties or raids needed for it. And gathering is to support crafting, so it is solo-exclusive again. Sure, raiders benefit from it, but it is still solo exclusive.

    We want Raid gear to augment raiding, and solo gear to augment soloing. That sounds like a good split. there. And there is nothing stopping raiders from getting that gear if they put the effort, just like soloers can get raid gear if they put the effort and join a raiding guild.

    As for achievements, I still remember the tier 0.5 gear in WoW. The dungeon set that you could upgrade through some pretty long (and tough) quests to better gear. It was still worse than raid gear, but it was pretty sweet. Not a lot of people had it, it was a pretty long quest. Still remember the 45 min strat runs, which was challenging back in the day. This is what was required, for those that are not familiar with it:

    http://www.wowwiki.com/Dungeon_Set_2

    Nice achievement back in the day.
  8. Livnthedream

    Livnthedream Super Cupcake

    Joined:
    May 20, 2013
    Likes Received:
    1,090
    Trophy Points:
    113
    You will never find that in a AAA title. The demo for that sort of content would need to be much larger than raiders to make it worth their while to do, and even is risky. Group based play offers so much more in terms of retention and bonuses on content retention its just not really feasible outside of something like Diablo, and those sorts of games are aimed at totally different kinds of play than an mmo.

    Because the community itself took them away. Look at most of those that existed before, like the class specific quests in WoW. The information on how to easily solo them is so widespread that its a joke. There is no solo based encounters that do not suffer from this sort of issue. This is what happens when players take tools out of developers hands.

    Then you should watch further. By the end of Genetic Archives it becomes much more of a crapshoot in that regard. Plus, you didn't see all of the wiping that was in play before hand. Not to mention the actual individual issues of content creation itself. Making things "equal" for every class and still making them unique enough.

    I will have to take a look at it. Really though I doubt I will find much different than a decent study of the rise and fall of the Roman Empire won't teach.
  9. azmundai

    azmundai Well-Known Cupcake

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2013
    Likes Received:
    323
    Trophy Points:
    63
    why does everything have to become a long winded discussion on raiding?

    anyway .. at low levels im going to have to say crafting is really not worth it. the gear you can make is ok, and if you make a lvl 13 jacket at level 12, it will be an upgrade when you turn 13, but it will be replaced 20 minutes after you equip it.

    that being said if you spend a little extra time in areas with humanoids you can farm up enough cores so that you can pretty much vendor everything you craft, and break even or even come out a little ahead.

    dont know anything about endgame yet.
  10. Livnthedream

    Livnthedream Super Cupcake

    Joined:
    May 20, 2013
    Likes Received:
    1,090
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Again, that is only the case if you do not tweak stats to your needs and do not overcharge. The only times I have found the "20 min later upgrade" to be true is with blues, which even then, it depends on if you feel the rep+gold is worthwhile (for me it generally is, but others may have different feelings). Considering that you need to make x of y to even level many of the crafts, and how dailies are set up, I have had plenty of use/fun with crafting thus far.
  11. Infamouz

    Infamouz Well-Known Cupcake

    Joined:
    Jun 4, 2013
    Likes Received:
    495
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Location:
    Sweden
    Didn't J-Tal say some time back that they are increasing the item level of crafted gear and weapons by 2-4? He said that he wants the crafted items last for four levels in leveling, not two.

    I had quite alot of use of the crafted weapons while leveling. Of course I overloaded as much I could, and crafted untill the "random stat" roll hit on my primary stat. Endgame crafted weapons are quite nice way to get your self geared for veterans and what not. I have 998 AP weapon with hefty amount of stats on them and a DPS proc, even tho I only overloaded 1% as the craft I did was a "Prototype" and I didn´t want to gamble all those Crafting Vouchers.

    When the game goes live I will be sprinting to 7th tier of crafting talents ASAP, as the bonuses at that tier are just ridiculously strong at the moment. Removes two pieces of the costiest crafting materials as requirement for the recipe; Ie if your recipe needs 16 ores, 12x Fragments, 1x Power Core, 2x Emberine crafting material (Can´t remember the full name), the 7th tier of the crafting talents removes the 2x Emberine requirement for the recipe. As a example the crafting cost of the weapon I made would had gone down from 40 platinum to something like one platinum or so.
    Livnthedream likes this.
  12. Azzurri

    Azzurri Podcaster

    Joined:
    Nov 9, 2012
    Likes Received:
    354
    Trophy Points:
    63
    This is a themepark MMO so of course crafting is just secondary. There is no way on gods green earth they would ever make crafting gear better than raid gear, not in a Themepark MMO.
  13. azmundai

    azmundai Well-Known Cupcake

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2013
    Likes Received:
    323
    Trophy Points:
    63
    that may be, ill admit I havent spent a ton of time crafting.

    my issue thus far has been balancing the costs of crafting with the desire to get something out of it.

    its a good thing really, but .. that being said I think most people are going to have a hard time crafting something good while balancing the desire to buy more abilities, a mount, and a house at level 15.

    this is probably a good thing. As things get more difficult post 20, etc .. I will probably be happy to go back and do some crafting to take a break from questing.

    ive also gotten a little better at making money and crafting so maybe this weekend I will be better off :)

    if anything I think that first tier of stuff you have to purchase to craft could come down a notch as right now it feels very restrictive. I can see a lot of people being frustrated, people not in beta or not actively figuring out how to craft efficiently.

    may help to ease the learning curve a little.

    again I dont think its necessary if you know what you are doing, you can plan accordingly and get everything you want, but ... newer players might be a bit frustrated with money early on.

    from the sounds of it money isnt much of an issue once you know how to accrue it .. but that initial hump is a little rough imo. and it really is only when you throw in trying to craft. if you just ignore crafting, anyone should be able to afford just about anything they want .. well except really expensive housing stuff .. but that is to be expected.
  14. Livnthedream

    Livnthedream Super Cupcake

    Joined:
    May 20, 2013
    Likes Received:
    1,090
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Money should be expected to be a little tough for those who want to do everything. That is part of what gives those parts meaning.
  15. filanwizard

    filanwizard Cupcake-About-Town

    Joined:
    Nov 16, 2013
    Likes Received:
    61
    Trophy Points:
    28
    The greatest challenge in this kind of MMO is how to make crafting viable while not upsetting the gear system.

    Now the stat system in Wildstar has some sway in this, Its very possible to have crafted gear out perform raid gear and pvp gear in the open world. And then in respective tasks have the right gear for the right job.

    But considering its april and we have not even hit open beta yet we have no clue as to what will happen on the crafted gear front. Or any gear front for that matter. And gear stats are pretty easy to tweak even in a completed game. That role in the credits you see about tools programmers? one of the tools they tend to make are a GUI for editing and creating items. Someone generates or enters stats, links to an art resource and updates the DB.
  16. Nexus Elites

    Nexus Elites Cupcake

    Joined:
    Feb 16, 2014
    Likes Received:
    15
    Trophy Points:
    8
    Location:
    Kernersville, North Carolina
    I meant that its not exclusive to solo players. Both raiders and non-raiders have access to it.

    I'm not sure what part you are referring to, when you talk about the crapshoot at the end of Genetic Archives. If you're referring to the last comment about people dying but the bosses still going down, well that's just part of the large raid sizes that we'll have to get used to. The larger the raid, the more people that can die (and sometimes carry) because of the numbers/percentages. Two people go down early in a 10-man raid? Might as well wipe it, because that's 20% of your team. If two people go down in a 40-man, that's only 5% of your team, which leads to groups being able to not have to bring in 40 awesome players to down a boss, just 30-35 or so will suffice.

    Sorry, off topic again, lol. Um, crafting is awesome? :D
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 3, 2014

Share This Page