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Cross server dungeon finder confirmed

Discussion in 'WildStar General' started by John, Mar 13, 2013.

  1. Patrician

    Patrician "That" Cupcake

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    Thanks Scooter! I think my thoughts on the question are as follows:

    Leaderboards are going to go a super long way in distinguishing servers as individual communities, in my opinion. People will be looking at the top guilds and players, and which servers they are on. I am sure this will lead to a certain server pride for many server communities.

    After that, one must examine the servers not at the top. How do they feel like a strong community? I'd say events are a good way to do this as well. Maybe having Devs take control of NPCs now and then rolling schedules so every server gets a chance to watch and take part. Also big server unlocks like the WoW Ahn'Qiraj gates was a big server pride thing, trying to be one of the first to do it, seeing whose server crashed... ;)

    As for rivalry between PvPers, perhaps you could add a "rival list" feature to the game. This would allow you to, at a click, save another faction player's name in a list. You could then write a note about them in this list, and their name in any match you play at the end result screen would always be a special color, or highlighted.

    Maybe online you could even check and see who added YOU to their rivil list.

    Just some ideas I hope aren't too hard to implement but can go a long way to giving people perhaps the "feel" they want, even with a larger base of players being pulled from with a cross-server system.
    Yakzan, Black Wolf and JarNod like this.
  2. BrokSamson

    BrokSamson Cupcake-About-Town

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    I think that if anything done in a group in an mmo can be done without communication and team work...not just knowing the general way through a dungeon, but actual teamwork...then it gets done with very little talking, or community.

    In that way a group finder that is in essence outside of the community...ie x realm...doesn't just fail to add to community building, it in fact greatly takes away from it. It allows for easy farming, via generally mute button mashers that you q up for. Sort of turns an mmo into speed dating, only worse because you can't take it deeper by inviting someone to a guild or whatever if they turn out to be cool.

    I would be interested in knowing what the before and after numbers were for some games that put this in place. I would be that number of dungeons run went up, enjoyment for each run went down, and number of runs done with friends went way down as well.
    Yakzan likes this.
  3. Praiz

    Praiz Cupcake-About-Town

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    I had a post about how I thought I could be alright with cross-server LFG, I felt physically ashamed posting it.

    Sorry.
  4. Aheadache

    Aheadache Well-Known Cupcake

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    I welcome the tool, have never had an issue with it in previous games. It really saves time when trying to form a dungeon run. Sure add a check box for "search your server only" to make the few that hate it happy. I am personally hate standing in a town looking for a few more for a dungeon, I could be out killing \ gathering \ pvping \ fishing \ mowing the lawn, instead of spamming that I need a healer or tank.

    Does everyone think people are monsters or jerks on other servers?
    InnocentCivilian likes this.
  5. Praiz

    Praiz Cupcake-About-Town

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    I appreciate the ideas, but I can't help but feel it's an artificial solution to a needlessly created problem.

    (Following is not a criticism or an attack on you Aheadache, your point just gave great potential)

    I agree, the problem is no one gets what the point of town should be. Back when Ironforge was the big capital of the Alliance, pre-TBC.

    Being in town was one of those things you chose to do. It was fun, because, guess what? There was a community, you knew the players, it's the reason we don't want to have cross-server dungeon finder, I gaurentee you're cheating yourself of the experience if you accept cross-server.

    Kicking back with the big guilds, looking at hard-earned gear, sitting around a campfire in Ironforge with the two other Warrior's on your server who have Dark Edge of Insanity (C'Thun weapon) discussing your class and having fun. I promise you won't get that when a cross-server dungeon finder is implemented. It's not that it can't exist, but it won't because you're killing the <REDACTED>ing tree by not letting the roots grow in the first place.

    Maybe it's just me, but that sounds <REDACTED>ing magical.

    Not at all. The point is the server is your home, and they're your family (of sorts) whatever server you are on, you should feel that way.
  6. Dragnog

    Dragnog Cupcake-About-Town

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    Personally I do not. I will be interested to see what you have in store for us. I would like to note here though that there are certain behaviors that have become more obvious and possibly have been exacerbated by it. Many people find these behaviors unacceptable, I would like those people who have issue to have a choice on who they play with and still have the advantages of the LFD Tool.
  7. Patrician

    Patrician "That" Cupcake

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    I do get that, but I think what I'm trying to express is you still can have that with a cross-server system. Even if Carbine doesn't use any kind of rival list like I suggested, let's use WoW for the example since its the main thing people bring up.

    In WoW, without a cross server feature I was playing on a server with a lot of alliance and a smaller amount of horde. My queue times were about half an hour to an hour, and sometimes it would never pop.

    I did however get to know those Horde I fought. After one match, we even got on the Vent of the Horde guild and were laughing about what an epic fight it was.

    After the cross-server stuff came along, suddenly the pool was super larger. However, WoW was also super larger. The entire player base was fluctuating on a daily basis. Guilds broke up, shifted, left, reformed, got burnt out with the game... and so many other systems were established it completely changed everything.

    I didn't ever talk on a rival Horde team's vent again, but not because of cross-server grouping. It was because the game itself and the community got gigantic and was in a constant state of flux and also even I was burnt out a little.

    But I played WoW again just recently and was queuing up for BGs and you know what I noticed? A ton of similar names over and over in the window. Sure the server pool is huge now, but you can still end up playing with repeat rivals again and again. People tend to queue up at similar times, even across servers.

    I just think it becomes slightly more daunting for people to keep track of the large amount of names. I still often looked for the name of the <REDACTED> who killed me though and try to find them on the armory. Now if only I could have given him a gold star, or a "rival" vote. Hrm, things like that would be cool for WildStar to implement...

    I think what I was trying to say is that unspoken rivalry can still be there, if you really want it to be.

    I adore the idea of just 4 server types, or one big mega server that phases you in with people who pick your play style and guild and friends too... But I don't think WildStar is at all going to do that, so I guess I'm trying to come up with ways to make what they ARE doing work as well as possible.

    I don't think that cross-server stuff however is the cause for a lot of what people don't like happened with server communities though. I think that's more the fault of the huge population explosion in WoW and how easy the single player became.
  8. JarNod

    JarNod WildStar Haiku Winner 2012 / Lead Guinea Pig

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    This is something I was discussing with Blackwolf before this thread was created. I don't actually know if the cause of community failure in WoW was the X-Realm LFG tool or the explosion of community. The only way to know this is to have one server not allow for a LFG tool, and the rest of them do. Then, we can see the effect the LFG tool has on a community scientifically :p
    Black Wolf and Azzurri like this.
  9. Patrician

    Patrician "That" Cupcake

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    But see that's the issue a lot of the arguments for no cross-faction server tools don't seem to want to take into account. For a MAJORITY of players, queue times before they added that were a gigantic problem.

    If you only have 2 hours to play one night, which is how a ton of people play MMOs nowadays, would you rather a quick couple of matches? Or just a small amount due to extended queue times?

    Most people want the faster queues, heck it's why the darn cross-server thing began. People weren't sitting on thrones of skulls and laughing about how thy could ruin server communities.

    Now, the main argument people have against his system is it destroys communities by fractioning them and creating faceless foes and random strangers in your groups.

    I totally understand where that argument comes from, because I used to think it! However, after a long reexamination of the facts and a lot of soul searching, I've come to understand that it's simply not the case.

    Even with lots more random names popping up in PvP matches, I can still run into people on my server from the other faction. It would be impossible NOT to. I can still develop those relationships. Nothing is stopping me from doing so except myself. I can also FURTHER develop that same kind of dynamic with people on OTHER servers if I so choose to.

    Adding ways for us to keep in contact and maybe even request groups with other players we meet in such a system would be a huge bonus and allay a lot fears I'm sure. However, I just think people are putting way too much doom and gloom on the shoulders of cross-server group/PvP tools than is deserved.
  10. Gempulse

    Gempulse Cupcake-About-Town

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    It's not that people are monsters or jerks on other servers; it's solely the fact that MMOs excel when there are well-established, server-based communities thriving within the game. If you are grouping with random people from a different server that you've never seen before, only to play with them for 15 minutes then never see them again, it can subtract from the social stickiness players once felt in MMOs.

    In the Burning Crusade, there wasn't a cross-server LFG; in effect, obviously, if you wanted to group, you had to group with someone from your server. I found myself doing Heroic dungeons with a lot of different players from my server, but it seemed with every other group, I would find a familiar name, which was awesome.

    It was always great to play with someone you've seen around the server or know from previous groups, because you were able to catch up with them; maybe ask them what their guild has been up too. If they obtained new gear from raiding, or a new title from PvP, you could congratulate them, or compare their achievements with yours. This would sometimes even promote friendly server competition.

    For example: I remember grouping with a Troll Mage when I first hit level 70 and we talked throughout the dungeon; I didn't add him to my friends, but he was a cool guy and his name stuck with me. During the dungeon we would, in good spirit, challenge each other on boss fights to see who could produce the most DPS. As he and I progressed, we would see each other in Orgrimmar, I would obtain new gear, he would obtain new gear. It was like a passive rivalry to see which one of us could progress the furthest. Often times, I would unknowingly join a group that he was in and we would gradually start talking and laughing about previous dungeon runs that we had participated in.

    This is just one instance; I can think of numerous other players on my server that happened to always end up in my group.

    You don't see this anymore in WoW because the community aspect of the game is absolutely ruined. There is no need to communicate with one another, because it's not like you will ever see this individual again; they are on a different server, after all. The dungeons are so overly simplified that communication is a waste of energy. Blizzard's version of the cross-dungeon LFG tool is one of the laziest implementations I have ever seen. Though, they outdid themselves with Looking-for-raid.

    Cross-server LFG tools also encourage "ninja-looting". In the Burning Crusade, if someone in your Heroic party ninja-looted, the whole server knew about it, because word spread so quickly within your server community. Players on the server, in effect, refrained from grouping with any players who had a harshly negative reputation.

    People KNEW that they were risking their reputation on the server, and therefore refrained from committing any "slimy" acts.

    In Wrath, when cross-server LFG came out, people ninja-looted more frequently and these players rarely faced any consequences because they were on a different server; players were unable to spread the word that "so-and-so" ninja-looted "so-and-so boss". These players were able to get away with murder (hyperbole) and do it over and over again. I can't count how many times myself and my friends were subjected to ninja-looting in cross-realm Vault of Archavon.
  11. Patrician

    Patrician "That" Cupcake

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    You know, that sounds like a great idea for them to test in be beta or something. >.>. It would just mean they'd need a <REDACTED> ton of testers to get the right feel for fully pop servers.

    Wait, an idea that suggests they ask way more people to beta test the game? Sign me up!
  12. Black Wolf

    Black Wolf Super Cupcake

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    The problem with doing this in Beta is that it takes time for a community to grow. I don't think a short Beta period will be a good representation. People are not busy with building social connection on a test server. They are looking for bugs or in most cases, only playing the game.
    Yakzan likes this.
  13. Praiz

    Praiz Cupcake-About-Town

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    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8rd0-zVIBVo

    This video should really be required viewing, sorry if people already saw it from the reddit thread it was posted in yesterday, but it's spot on.

    Quoting Black Wolf, JarNod and Kurik to see what they're thoughts on it are. Hope you don't mind.

    Yakzan, ThePandason and Kurik Lein like this.
  14. Kurik

    Kurik Super Cupcake

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    We can still have rivalries cross-server but they will mean so much less in my opinion. With individual servers and a two faction system, "enemy" players on a server are interacting with each other constantly out in the world and server forums. Rivalries form naturally because of that interaction and if we don't have the option to fight against each other when we want to, it would make me a bit sad. :(
  15. Lethality

    Lethality "That" Cupcake

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    Can't believe I never saw it. It says everything I've typed for years... now I can just show that to people!
  16. Patrician

    Patrician "That" Cupcake

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    Well one thing to keep in mind I suppose is that you're still going to see a majority of enemy players on your server fighting against you in BGs if the system they are going to implement uses the right algorithms to pull people on the same server first as a high priority. :)

    What I would most like to know is how do they plan to make the WarPlot system work. If this is something you maintain and defend against random people from all over, it will probably remain the same issue for you guys, even if you see similar guild names or alliances over and over again.

    However, what if Warplots are something that is only faction vs faction on ONE server. That could be the thing that gives community rivalry, while still allowing that "quick fix" of PvP with cross-server BGs.
    Kurik Lein likes this.
  17. Black Wolf

    Black Wolf Super Cupcake

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    I've seen it before and watched it a couple of times. I fully agree with this video. I've shown it to many people as well. I even linked it to Scooter in IRC, but he said he already seen it. Don't know if that matters or not. :)

    The article below is also a very good read:
    http://www.gatheryourparty.com/articles/2012/05/03/world-of-warcraft-what-happened/
  18. Patrician

    Patrician "That" Cupcake

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    I like that video a ton! It doesn't seem to have anything at all to do with a cross-server LFG tool, but great video about how group content should be super difficult so that people have to learn how to play together and go on a journey in MMOs!
  19. Drasas

    Drasas Well-Known Cupcake

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    As much as I HATE X-realm dungeon because of the asshattery it allows for the system is a necessary evil. Without x-realm dungeon tools people would be forced to wait forever to form proper groups for even the most basic of dungeons. Star Wars was a great example of what happens when you take the old-school approach. People ignore most of the dungeons while leveling and those that don't spend hours trying to get a group together.
  20. Patrician

    Patrician "That" Cupcake

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    See, that article does the exact same thing I'm trying to point out: it points the blame of WoW slowly dying on the addition of the group finding system and revels in the remembered days of hunting for your group in chat channels by claiming social politics were involved and engaging.

    I'm a damn social person who did 40 mans in WoW and that just isn't how I remember it...

    It's easy to blame a lack of community bonding on those LFG dungeon experiences you run, but lets take the group finder away and what do you have in WoW? You have dungeons which take a TON of more time to get to and do that YOU CAN STILL FACEROLL THROUGH.

    GW2 did not release with a dungeon finder, and you know what? It freaking stunk not to have one.

    But ok, we're talking cross-server here being the bad thing. People are mindless and don't speak and ninja loot because they are on a different server, right? No, that's because the content is so mindnumbingly easy you CAN do it without communication.

    Content needs to be difficult enough to force people to communicate strategies. Then people HAVE to talk. Also he implementation of a need/greed system where you are unable to vote need on things your class can't use helps with ninja looting. Or private loot even like in GW2.

    Now as for meeting an awesome person you'll never see again? Well, if you personally want to only run with people on your server, do that! Hang out in front of the dungeon entrance, ask in general like you always used to. If you want the ease of using the LFG tool but want it server only, then just maybe realize as long as the content is challenging, you're still going to have a fun and meaningful experience... And you now get the chance to meet and interact with someone you might never have been able to before.

    Also one other important thing to remember is you still end up being placed with people on your server quite a lot. Still another thing to remember is, people who like community building end up in guilds or have large friends lists so they don't NEED to join the LFG solo.

    Seriously, really, it really is gonna be ok I think. :)
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