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Do you guys think the Dominion Races have their own share of burdens besides being the bad guys?

Discussion in 'WildStar Races' started by Roa, May 25, 2013.

  1. Korath

    Korath New Cupcake

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    Yes, the tactis of the Dominion, while sometimes incredibly effective on a military level turned against them when it comes to the political level and the improvement of their Empire. The Aurin are a good exemple, but the Granok are another one : the primitives stone-like species rejected the Dominion, but crushing them was useless on a global point of view, for the Granok were primitives and thereforce not a threat, they couldn't even leave their homeworld of Gnox. Leaving them alone would have been easy, but the Lumini at that time wished to destroy them. The result is that he reinforced the Exiles, wasted countless Dominion's lifes in the war on Gnox and must now face the battle-hardened Granok on a lot of conflicts (which would have probably be a Dominion victory without them).

    A succes of the Dominion is the incorporation of the Draken : only one creature was killed, the suprem Clan-Lord of the Draken and the Dominion won the inconditional loyalty of these ferocious hunters and killers. This victory was not achieved by total destruction, an enormous war and countless deads, but only by a wise use of the Dominion knowledge about the Draken.

    For me, the Dominion (i.e : the Cassian and the Mechari) deviated from its original purpose (whatever it could have been) and the Lumini and the "nobles" of the Dominion were wonderfuly played by the Eldan, who managed thanks to Dominus to erase their threats during the First Contact with the Cassians. Somehow, the Exiles (probably without even understang it and not deliberately) are closer to the original goal of the Dominion (gathering other species under human leadership) than the Dominion, even if they are less effective.
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  2. Thordran

    Thordran Cupcake-About-Town

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    Any large organization probably doesn't perceive what it's doing as "evil" per se. The average Cassian in the Dominion is probably just looking to do the same things that anyone would want to do in society. Ditto Draken. Mechari all seem to have a military purpose.

    The biggest problem with these "join us or die! it is your destiny!" empire factions is that the people that are making the decisions usually don't think very long term and are just reactionary. They send Mechari to the Granok and pretty much demand them to join. Granok say no. Mechari insist. Granok get to smashing Mechari. Instead of calmly moving along and not making a fuss, some idiot in the Dominion hierarchy takes offense and decides to start a war. They send overwhelming force and tech against rock people with primitive weapons and slowly but surely start winning although they're spending a lot of resources and tech against a people that supposedly have primitive weapons because they want to cause a genocide because someone's feelings in the brass got hurt.

    So, some Granok smash in and grab the Dominion tech. Now you have pissed off practically invincible rock people armed with state of the art shields and weapons and a good reason to smash the ever loving <REDACTED> out of you. And thus, the beat down begins. Dominion forced to retreat, Granok win, are now an actual military threat as opposed to a threat to someone's honor. Pride goeth before a fall.

    Aurin solution wasn't much better. Drive them off the planet and toward the Exiles instead of negotiating. Now you gave the Exiles improved science and food making ability and a hit squad of adorable hunter folk who also hate you, oh and look at that, they now have state of the art tech and weapons instead of their primitive stuff. Brilliant move.

    It's constantly shooting yourself in the foot because you can't think beyond anything other than pride/honor and this will all work out because we are "the chosen ones".

    My suspicion is that the biggest "problem" in Dominion society may be that there would be folks that are wondering what the heck the people in charge are actually thinking and that they may be off their nut. If the path video with Agent Voxine is any example, you don't see the average Dominion citizen all zealously willing to give their life for the Dominion as Vox lays out how they'll be serving the Dominion through their assignments. Many of them look like they're trying to find a way out of it. My suspicion is that the Exiles are way more dedicated to their cause down to the last man/woman, and that their society is far tighter and way more focused on their goals.

    Not to say Exiles don't have their own internal problems of course. :)
  3. Morphine

    Morphine New Cupcake

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    The eldan chose the cassians, the mechari protect and advise the cassians but whose to say they aren't ultimately loyal only to the eldan. The eldan gave the cassians the means to be evil. Intact game design indicates that the eldan remnants is a lot of what you'll be fighting in the story.
    I think they have slack enough to be a three dimensional bad faction.
    The draken, I'm rolling, so I really hope there not so black and white. I think from a lore perspective when you look at wildstar which seems to be about pioneers on the planet nexus. Whereas the exiles have scope for faction, and racial leaders because that suits there politics. The Dom actually are quite unique as they along with there politics would not encourage racial leaders. Unless lets say for speculations sake... The eldan are the true evil, the cassians fall from grace, and a more fairly governed dominion is formed along with racial leaders. Creating a more diplomatic faction rather than a doctoral one which from a gameplay point of view, would not be fun, I mean who wants to play as a pawn. When you can be a knight.

    Also something to think about the mechari are eldan creations, the mechari were the ones to advise the attack on the draken.
  4. Steampunkette

    Steampunkette Cupcake-About-Town

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    Honestly... I'm not sure the Dominion will actually be nearly as "Evil" as a lot of players are looking forward to. Let's take a look at the situation around Nexus.

    You've got the Planet which is technically the homeworld of a sapient species of inorganic synthetic life forms. On that point, alone, the Dominion should have the "Rights" to Nexus when it comes to colonization and habitation. Add to that: The Dominion itself was formed by the efforts of the native organic life forms of Nexus. The Dominion's primary race was raised from barbarism specifically to function as the stewards of an interplanetary empire by a powerful race of highly advanced beings. By all accounts this could result in a situation where there is a "Divine Right" to rule, not unlike the Kings, Czars, and Pharoahs of our world.

    The Exiles, on the other hand, are people who were kicked off of their own worlds in open rebellion against the Dominion who have laid claim to territory that, by all rights, belongs to the Dominion. "Finders Keepers" generally doesn't work as a method of legal recourse, after all. You could probably make a decent case for an attempt at adverse possession, which is a property law that outlines how a Squatter can come to own the mansion he's squatting in, but the Dominion are definitely showing their disapproval of the Exiles actions. Legally speaking: The Exiles don't have a leg to stand on.

    But then there is the issue of Divine Right to Rule. Who can give you authority to rule over people except the people whom you will Rule? It's a core tenet of western thinking at this point that Democracy or at least Republics are far more ethical than a monarchy in which the populace has no say in who will rule. It's unsurprising, then, that the Ruling Group would not recognize the moral imperative which leads to Democracy rather than Despotism. They argue from their position of privilege and power that Democracy is not Rulership: It's Mob Rule.

    Similarly: What are the rights of a Synthetic Life Form? Are they Property? Well they're Sapient, which leads me to the position that owning one would be akin to slavery. So they aren't property per se. But can they -own- property? Well, as Sapients they certainly have as much right as any thinking species to own things. And similarly have a right to live and exist. But do they have a right to a homeworld? This is where it gets trickier. At this point I highly doubt any Mechari which is still functioning was built while on Nexus. And while their "Familial Line" originated there they hardly have the same rights to the territory that someone who was born there does. The going theory is that all human life originated in Africa, but that doesn't give a New Hampshire WASP the right to go to Ghana and declare s/he owns the nation.

    Still, even if you deny the Divine Right to Rulership granted to the Cassians by the Eldan you still must recognize that the Eldan were a chartered and founding member species and society OF the Dominion. Which means that they, if there are survivors, and the planet Nexus are both part of the Dominion's Holdings. Which puts the Exiles into a dangerous position since they're the ones invading another person's land. That's not to say they don't have -reasons- to do it. They were, after all, stripped of their own homeworlds by Dominion Conquest.

    Will the Dominion have Burdens? Of course. Being Antagonistic towards the Exiles is definitely one of them. But I don't think one of their burdens will be "Being Evil" because societies aren't inherently good or evil. They're made up of individuals who live their lives and at some points do evil or good to each other and others beyond their society. In a Land War like this there is only ever rarely a "Good" side or an "Evil" side. There is usually only Aggressors and Defenders. And as outlined in this post: The Exiles are likely the Aggressors within the conflict, even if they're defending their holdouts those holdouts are on someone else's property.

    Aren't morality and law fun when mixed together? It makes me think of Farscape.
    [​IMG]

    With the Peacekeepers in the role of the Dominion. Sure they're antagonistic to the crew of Moya, but they are trying to save all of creation from the Scarran menace. And the individual Peacekeepers, while militant and ready to follow orders, tend to still be good people who don't revel in other people's pain or enjoy hurting people.

    -Rachel-
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  5. Blade

    Blade Cupcake

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    I see the Dominion as being good old fashioned evil. They have a lofty heritage and use that as an excuse to slaughter and expand. They could have expanded the Dominion without being total asshats, but they choose instead to just destroy everything that's in their way.

    They could have used their position to unite the galaxy in peace and enlightenment, but they decided to wage war on the universe instead. So while they might have had a noble goal originally, they're nothing like that now.

    Genocide and slavery and all makes you evil. Because there are other ways.
    And yes, people living in the Dominion might think they're... well, not a "good" force but at least a stable one. They know that they could be slaughtered because some bureaucrat got offended but they also know there's not going to be muggers and murders prowling the streets. They'd also be force fed propaganda about the Exiles being dangerous terrorists.

    @Steampunkette

    Yes, the Dominion have a "claim" to Nexus. Of course they could have come and worked openly with the Exiles to the betterment of all. They could have formed an alliance making use of all their combined skill to unlock the mystery of Nexus.

    Instead they decide "This is ours, you have to die" and go to war.
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  6. Steampunkette

    Steampunkette Cupcake-About-Town

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    That's a LOT of speculation. There's no information on Genocide or Propaganda within the Dominion. We've actually been shown a very candid and transparent view of the Dominion without a lot of propaganda or distraction from the truth.

    -Rachel-
  7. Xlugon Pyro

    Xlugon Pyro Super Cupcake

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    Destroying the home worlds of two major races is pretty much genocide. If that isn't genocide, I don't know what is.

    I haven't read anything that states that the Dominion supports slavery though.
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  8. Steampunkette

    Steampunkette Cupcake-About-Town

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    Destruction of property isn't murder. If I burn your house down I go to prison for arson, not murder.

    If all or most of the people were on the planet at the time? Yeah. Mass murder or Genocide depending on how bad it was. However even Genocide can be justified once you're on a Galactic scale. Blowing up one planet to save a dozen others, for example. Or wiping out an invasive and dangerous species to avoid widespread destruction (like the Zerg).

    -Rachel-
  9. Sera Serenity

    Sera Serenity Cupcake-About-Town

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    Comes down to perspective, one could argue that the Dominion liberated those planets from the tyrannical leaders, and as in any fight for freedom there are always tragic losses and sacrifices that must be made for the greater good. That they are removing people off planet to new jobs is actual empowering people, and improving there lives...
  10. Outburstz

    Outburstz Cupcake-About-Town

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    Helping terrorist is a crime
    Attacking an ambassador is an act of war

    The Dominion needed to show the galaxy that standing against or helping enemies of the Dominion would not be tolerated. Other wise you would have a bunch of races and worlds around the galaxy challenging the Dominion which could not be tolerated.

    Perspective perspective perspective
  11. Xlugon Pyro

    Xlugon Pyro Super Cupcake

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    If you look at things only from a perspective, everything is relative. That's a no brainer. It's still really clear what genocide is, or at least it should be. I'm talking about an objective viewpoint here that looks at exactly what happened, not the motives or reasoning behind it. Just the facts.

    Almost all genocides are justified by the genocidists anyway.
  12. McSteezy

    McSteezy Cupcake

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    I kinda see this in real world terms.
    The Dominion is a powerful ever expansive oligarchy, and those powerful few, like most governments are considered crooked. But not all the citizens of this society are "evil", similar to how not all the rebels trying to fight for justice and freedom are "good". I think the "heads" of both factions will eventually become kinda evil, and the morality of the faction is all up to the players who play it.
  13. Deimos

    Deimos Cupcake

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    Has anyone considered the 40k universe in relation to the Dominion. The Imperium is considered the "good" faction, although it does it's own fair share of atrocities, the Imperium stemmed from one man's knowledge and vision of making sure humanity survives.

    Maybe the Eldan knew there was something very very dangerous out there and found the best way to combat it was to create the Dominion.
  14. Blade

    Blade Cupcake

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    In Warhammer 40K the Imperium is basically a religious dictatorship. Basically like really religious Nazi's.
    You don't share our faith? We wipe out your race.
    You don't agree with our goals? We wipe out your race.
    You touched something of ours? We wipe out your race.
    The soldiers of the Imperium do what they're told without question, or they're killed without a thought. Any race they come across is killed for not being human. Any human with a mutation is killed for being a freak (except for those mutants created by the Imperium when needed).
    The common people of the Imperium basically live drab lives in service to the Imperium. Get up, say your prayers, go to work, say your prayers, go home, say your prayers, sleep. It's not exactly a "good" life. But they are raised from birth to believe that without the Imperium controlling every thought they have that the galaxy will end.

    Thing about WH40K is that there isn't really a "good" side. The closest would probably be the Eldar really, as they're trying to save the galaxy from destruction. Of course, they're also the ones that put everything in danger in the first place. :p
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  15. Necro

    Necro New Cupcake

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    in my mind a lot of these games with precieved evil races have a huge pitfall - that is they tend to needlessly want to slaughter everything in they're path.
  16. Sera Serenity

    Sera Serenity Cupcake-About-Town

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    You can only ever look at thing from a certain perspective..... From the politics of freedom fighters or terrorists, to interpretations of quantum mechanics or classical mechanics.
  17. Korath

    Korath New Cupcake

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    Pff. The Dark Eldars are the good faction. Everybody wanna live in Commorragh ! It's a fact !

    :p
  18. Thordran

    Thordran Cupcake-About-Town

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    This is all well and true from a political perspective, I'm sure that the Ministry of Truth or whatever the Dominion has makes the average Cassian believe exactly what the powers that be want. But as to the main point of the thread, we're looking at the major problems that the Dominion has as outside observers with perfect intelligence, not what the average person inside the game world thinks.

    From an objective perspective, the biggest problem is that the people in charge of the Dominion operate like they're idiots.

    If you send a few ambassadors to a primitive planet of rock people and they smash the ambassadors after you've overstayed your welcome, then you chalk it up to cultural differences and move on. As far as the citizens of the Dominion know, you tell them that the Mechari ambassadors determined that the Rock people were incompatible with Dominion life and not worth wasting resources on as they are no threat and you shoot anyone who questions you. If you have space travel and the rock people don't, then you tell everyone that the rock people are silly primitives or something and that travel there is forbidden.

    You don't start a genocide against a race that isn't a threat to you because your honor was insulted. You especially don't start a genocide against a people that you can't actually defeat. You especially especially don't start one when you're silly enough to get your best tech and space ships stolen out from under you and get kicked back into space. I wonder how the propaganda had to go after that debacle. Did they have to kill every Dominion soldier who fought on the Granok home world so the truth wouldn't get out? I'd have loved to see the spin on that.

    Ditto Aurin. You don't go waltzing into a neutral planet and destroying it before you negotiate and try to gain allies. That's silly. Why throw away a potential gain that you can deny your enemy? It may make you feel all manly and powerful and what-not, but it's short term shoot your self in the foot thinking.

    These are not the actions of a long term strategic minded organization. They have an Exile problem because their reactionary tactics created it. If you send all the strategic minded or more importantly sane grounded in reality people over to the other side (and make them willing to fight you to the bitter end), you will eventually end up in serious trouble or have a revolt on your hands.
  19. Outburstz

    Outburstz Cupcake-About-Town

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    Ok so here the problem with your outlook on how the Dominion handled the Garnok problem. You have to understand the frame of mind of the emperor and the high borns of Cassius. They believe that it is their destiny to rule the galaxy. That means that EVERY race that is in the galaxy must be apart of the Dominion or destroyed. Blocking off the planet and saying people can't go there is not the same as ruling. Now was there a bit of ego involved sure of course there was but that does not overshadow the main problem that the destruction of the Mechari ambassadors highlighted.

    That problem is simple if a backwater primitive race like the Granok are able to defy the Dominion then what hope does the Dominion have of ruling the galaxy?

    This would threaten the very ideals that the Dominion stand for. That can not be allowed to happen

    Now as for the Aurin this was done to make an example for the rest of the galaxy. In order to understand this you have to understand that the rebel Humans and Granok mercs have been running from the Dominion for almost 300 years. For 300 years they have been tracking these rebels across space. Then when they trace them to a new planet where clearly they must have gotten help from the natives this presents a serious problem.

    The rebels already made contact with these people first and have earned their trust. There is no way that the Dominion could trust a race of people that clearly helped the sworn enemies of the empire. There fore as a show to the rest of the galaxy they needed to show that helping these rebels was bad for your health by taking out your whole planet.

    That way the other races if they run into the rebels will tell them " Hey we are not helping you rebels. If we do the Dominion will crush us" Thus making the rebels have little place to go.

    The problem was not with the thought process of taking over the races it was with the execution of carrying it out.
  20. Thordran

    Thordran Cupcake-About-Town

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    I agree with everything that you and the others have wrote. It doesn't change the point that the policy is still stupid. I don't argue with the fact that they have a method to the stupidity, but it's still idiotic from a strategic perspective. The Dominion found out rather quickly that they actually couldn't subdue the Granok, which seems a far greater PR disaster than just moving along. Reasonable people could disagree the point, but actually proving that you can't do something seems more damaging to one's rep than leaving the question open to debate.

    As I mentioned, I'd love to see how the Dominion propaganda handled them losing against the Granok. They sent overwhelming force against primitive rocks and got pushed off the planet by a small commando force that managed to steal their own tech. Seems to me that this would make the rank and file question what the heck the brass is smoking a bit unless you're gonna go 40K and start blamming everyone.

    As an outside observer that isn't a part of the Dominion, responding to the whole "what problems do you think that the Dominion faces other than being perceived as evil question", I see this as a large potential problem for them. The rank and file Dominion person may not be that zealously concerned about being "the chosen ones" and be worried that incompetent zealots are leading them into untenable situations.

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