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Do you like having a limited action set?

Discussion in 'WildStar General' started by Perigon, Dec 5, 2013.

?

Limited action set?

  1. Yay

    73.3%
  2. Nay

    12.7%
  3. May...be?

    14.0%
  1. Witless

    Witless "That" Cupcake

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    I like what you said, concerning tiers ans AMPS, but for me I think if you allowed all skills to be available at all times it loses depth. You don't have to think about what to have available as it all is. Limiting my choice of available skills does add depth. I then need to find the right combo for me. And If I have make a mistake then that "Oh <REDACTED>" moment is really an "Oh <REDACTED>" moment.

    But The above poster is correct. This a dead horse and now a circular argument. I won't convince you that LAS = depth and you'll never convince me that it doesn't.

    /shrug
  2. Chrilin

    Chrilin Cupcake-About-Town

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    LAS = Knowing what abilities need to be on your toolbar based on the encounter.

    Non-LAS = Knowing what abilities to use based on the encounter.

    Specific encounters call for certain abilities. No encounter will use them all.

    It really just boils down to preference on how you are being fed information. It's all the same in the end.
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  3. Katherine

    Katherine Cupcake-About-Town

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    I don't mind the LAS, but it doesn't add depth. If you use the wrong talent, its the same as putting the wrong ability on your bars. Its literally exactly the same with more bar switching. You work out the 'right combo' for you in any game, unless you follow the Maths.

    The only thing it does so is make switching cheaper ;)
  4. Jeuraud

    Jeuraud Cupcake-About-Town

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    Correct…the problem is that you are assuming previous experience with the encounter.
    If you have not encountered the MOB/Player before, and you have all of your skills available, as long as you don’t faceplant you can continue to cycle through all of your skills during the encounter until you find the ones that work. With the W* LAS you cannot do this; if the 8 you have on your bar are not doing the job your only option is to leave combat, and select new skills; repeating the process until you find the combo that works for you.

    With an unknown encounter the LAS adds a potential extra step (Potentially lots of them.). Some might consider this extra step a nuisance, but in my opinion this is the added depth of the LAS.
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  5. Bnol

    Bnol Cupcake-About-Town

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    More options does not mean more depth. When tools are very specific their use is very obvious. In your 30 ability example, if a healer is casting a heal, and Counterspell is off-CD, the choice is very simple, you interrupt that heal. Yes, you have the fake casting battle, but that same battle can occur in WS, and in WS you can have those same fake-casting battles to bait dodges for your CC and burst damage abilities. You will have to decide if interrupting that heal is worth using a CD that might not only be for interrupting (Like the WS blink). Those choices are not as easy to make, because you might be sacrificing your escape CD to aggressively pressure, but to have that option at all, you will have to be properly positioned, and you will have to hit with the ability.

    This brings me to aiming. Aiming is significant. Missing a key skillshot can be devastating, and can completely change a fight. This makes off-target CCing much more difficult, as you will have to aim to execute that CC and then aim back to continue damage (which is made more difficult with unpredictably moving targets). It also allows you to fake cast a CC at one target and at the last moment aim at a different target, and then have subsequent mind games with that by just letting the CC go on that target occasionally, or bait a dodge. Without an LAS, aiming is not as critical, as if you miss your Counterspell, no worries you could still use Deep Freeze, who needs teammates to back you up. I suggest you try out SMITE to see the impact of aiming and timing, as that game has complete free-form targeting in a 3rd person perspective. Add in things like blind and disorient, and you are increasing the skillcap even more.

    In terms of positioning, Wildstar has a greater emphasis and more depth with positioning. WoW positioning was based on LoS and range only. You position yourself in a way that keeps in LoS/range of your healer, in LoS/range of your target, and out of LoS/range of other targets. Certainly there was a lot of gameplay going on in just that positioning battle, but WS has another positional requirement of lining up telegraphs. If you form a line from a target in WoW you are not punished by getting hit by the same spell, nor are you rewarded by being healed by the same spell, thus you have an additional positional dance that the best players will capitalize on. Also, with abilities that will hit the first target in a line, there is another dimension of skill with intercepting those abilities (or avoiding interecepting a beneficial spell that another ally needs).

    Why this was not significant in GW2 was because of the design of the abilities and the design of sPVP. GW2 didnt' have the kinds and variety of free-form targeting that WS has, and the sPVP was entirely focused on surviving in a small capture point, which condensed combat into a very small box, which made aoe a lot easier to execute. GW2 reduced depth in many ways with removing the trinity, restricting choice with weapon sets, and lacking a significant secondary resources for all classes. So there is additional depth, that is not present in WoW (addition aiming/positional/timing) or in GW2 (secondary resources, roles, skill choice).
  6. ratthing

    ratthing New Cupcake

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    I am not crazy about not only having to min/max my go-to spec (typical) but min/max multiple specs for individual boss fights. I like the idea of being something specific and in WS my character will constantly be influx.
  7. Enkidu

    Enkidu Cupcake-About-Town

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    I never said LAS turns me off from the game, I said i am not a fan of it. Either way if the game is fun I will still play it, I just do not agree with LAS. Nor did I ever say that "console kiddies" or ease of use were the prime reasons for them, I did say they were a byproduct of the system. I am sure when they came up with the combat system and LAS they were simply thinking about ways to make MMO combat more engaging and entertaining. Thing is in the process they also happened to come up with a system that removes some of the turn offs console players have about MMO's

    You can enjoy something, but see the benefit of another in a different light. May not be the primary reason behind the choices being made, but nevertheless it is a benefit for the majority. For example, a lot of times I do not agree with nerfs, but in the grand scheme of things nerfs are a necessary evil. Or the changes to FPS, I am a fan of the old shool shooter, exploring maze style maps, arena shooting gallery segments, no weapon limit, helps packs, and no cover.

    While modern FPS get rid of a lot of those conventions, and I still do enjoy the older ones. This does not mean I do not see how such changes may have a certain appeal to a wider crowd. I am not one of those my way or the highway types. Sure my reasons for accepting it may differ from the intent, but once again aren't those my reasons for accepting, do you lose anything from me like LAS because I have seen how some console gamers enjoy playing MMO's like DCUO, and to me LAS seems have some of those elements of appeal that made DCUO fun and accessible for many people I know?

    *smile* so once again what are you going on about?
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  8. Kidney

    Kidney Cupcake

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    Nope, that was it. Like we both said, it's a side-effect of the system. Which confused me.

    People have already said the reasons I agree with for LAS so I won't bother.
  9. Karasu

    Karasu New Cupcake

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    I like having a LAS simply because its less clutter on the screen such as tons and tons of macros / spells / items in one area, and the idea of being able to save and swap out different action sets when OOC.
  10. PlayerOne

    PlayerOne Cupcake-About-Town

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    WoW macros can only reliably combine either 1 ability that's on the GCD with abilities that aren't or just abilities that aren't. That seriously limits them. I feel like you are trying to imply that with the use of macros you can somehow dumb WoW combat down to somewhere near the level of GW2 or WildStar. That really can't happen.
  11. Skippy

    Skippy Well-Known Cupcake

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    Cos Warriors / hunters / warlocks / mages all having ''one hit'' macro's isn't dumbing down? just give it up dude, you are arguing with points that are completely wrong now.

    There are enough abilities / trinkets and such that are not on the global cooldown to be able to make a macro that over doubles your damage output in the single press of a button.
  12. PlayerOne

    PlayerOne Cupcake-About-Town

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    I feel like you are very quick to dream up exciting sounding scenarios for WildStar because you are a big fan and very quick to make other games sound as dull as possible. It just dulls the edge of your otherwise intelligent arguments.

    Again, it's all just spin. It's like ground target AoE and cone attacks are something new and innovative, you deliberately ignore the fact that other MMOs have been using them for years and years.

    We can sit here and dream up scenarios that make one game look like the pinnacle of human skill and the other look like a turd your grandma could play with her eyes shut all day if you like. But it won't achieve anything other than further emphasize your bias towards an unreleased game you are yet to play.

    Oh, and I have tried Smite. TBH, it's awful. If it was good more people would play it. Instead they play League and DotA.

    WoW has abilities that damage/heal everyone along their path. It has had for a long time. They are just in moderation just like AoEs, cones and ground targets and CC abilities that also cause damage are used in moderation.

    OK, so two games use the same dumbing down, one is amazing the other isn't. Hmm...remind us, which game you are excited about? I'm not sure you made it clear enough....
  13. PlayerOne

    PlayerOne Cupcake-About-Town

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    You don't think WildStar will have similar macros?

    LOL!

    The thing is, I am not trying to argue/convince anyone that WoW has the pinnacle of combat systems. Far from it. My argument is that there is no need to make one that is even more simple than WoW's already too simple one.
  14. Skippy

    Skippy Well-Known Cupcake

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    So you concede you are wrong? good.

    And Wildstar is a LAS based game, there won't be enough off the global cooldown to do such a thing otherwise people will have half their action bar committed to make such a macro, and you can be damn sure carbine have thought of that.

    If you think they are stupid enough to do such a thing you are just kidding yourself, And you are only commenting on this thread for the sake of arguing even if you are wrong.

    So please, shoo.
    Since you felt the need to edit this in after I already answered you I will just slip this here.

    The thing you aren't getting is that less abilities available at a time does not mean it is more simple, it means you have to make meaningful decisions before you even hit an encounter.

    Given raids will be made to have some random elements this could change on a week to week basis, then there's PvP where people will have varying builds and you don't know what someone has slotted (and in turn what to allow for) until they actually do it.

    In a game where all your abilities are available to you at the same time (not just WoW, but Rift / SWTOR and a lot of other MMO's) all you have to do is relly on hitting the right button because you don't have to worry about not having that ''needed'' ability for a certain situation.

    In a game with a LAS you have to improvise more, rather than dwelling on the fact you don't have ''that'' ability available to you to counter a specific thing, you need to work with what you have set and this brings a different type of skill in to it.

    Both types of games need skill to play, Either it's reacting by hitting the right ability, or reacting by having to improvise with what you have set yourself to have available. But you have no right what so ever to say they are simply ''dumbing down'' combat because if you think that you are being completely close minded, and as I said, Simply arguing here for the sake of arguing.
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  15. MadBlue

    MadBlue Cupcake-About-Town

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    Just a few from World of Macros:
    My point is that macros are made to simplify combat and reduce the number of keys people have to press. And it was in conjunction with other ways players try to simplify combat.

    I'm not worried about WildStar. The people behind the design were senior members of WoW's development team, and from what they've shown us of the combat, it looks like they know what they're doing to keep it exciting, challenging and engaging.

    I get the hesitation that some people have about the combat system based on being familiar with WoW and being disappointed with GW2's combat. Maybe they'll cotton to it, or maybe not. When it comes down to it, not every MMO has to appeal to everyone. There are plenty of MMOs, both existing and in development, to choose from. This one just isn't for you.

    In any case, you've really come to the wrong place to try to convince us it's going to be a "big disappointment" because a great many of us are excited about WildStar precisely because we like the direction it's going in.
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  16. Ripper McGee

    Ripper McGee Founding Member

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    Yes.
  17. Vyril

    Vyril Cupcake-About-Town

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    You can sugar coat your words to make it sound like you're not trying to convince anyone. In reality that's exactly what you're trying to do.

    WoWs macro system was to create a simplified combat system for players. In a lot of cases you removed a bunch of abilities off your bar because you created the macros for them.

    What is your PINNACLE of combat btw?
  18. Whistler

    Whistler Cupcake

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    Think of it more in terms of having a toolkit full of useful tools, but your tool belt only holds 8.

    WildStar is nice in the sense that LAS and loadouts will be free to change between (AMP respeccing will cost money, but you shouldn't need to respec often with multiple loadouts). With the ability to swap this stuff around any time out of combat, you're just retuning your toolbelt. Don't think of it as being in flux, but rather in terms of being versatile and not encumbered by constant respeccing costs. I'm looking forward to the system, I think it will do quite well.
  19. Kidney

    Kidney Cupcake

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    2nd everything you and Skippy posted.

    I think the warrior macro you pasted is an especially fine example of what Carbine is doing right. The functionality of those abilities should only ever really need to be 1 button for the player, and in Wildstar, they already are.

    This part.
  20. Jeuraud

    Jeuraud Cupcake-About-Town

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    Internal macros…No.
    Something you seem to not be getting is the Devs can control whether a macro can activate multiple action slots (W* is a LAS system.) in the same macro, and I doubt the W* Devs are going to allow this in their macros. CoHV was this way with their macros.
    Also because of the press-aim-release operation of Freeforms, or the press-hold-drive-release of Driveables(?), or the press-aim-hold-release of Charges, macros that activate multiple abilities would be very difficult if not impossible to make work.

    This is your opinion; it does not matter how many times you state your opinion … until you provide some hard data… it will remain just your opinion.
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