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Do you like having a limited action set?

Discussion in 'WildStar General' started by Perigon, Dec 5, 2013.

?

Limited action set?

  1. Yay

    73.3%
  2. Nay

    12.7%
  3. May...be?

    14.0%
  1. RavenWind

    RavenWind Well-Known Cupcake

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    Apparently, it makes the meat more tender but none the less more palatable.
  2. PlayerOne

    PlayerOne Cupcake-About-Town

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    Macro 1. Useless. Using that will make your DK character perform far worse.

    Macro 2. Just using off GCD damage buffs. Those macros will almost certainly be in WildStar.

    Macro 3. Is a Druid macro to enable you to condense abilities only available in certain forms into a single button. Nothing unusual there. You still have to pick the right form to achieve what you want.


    None of those macros are for a Warrior....that's....awkward.
  3. Kidney

    Kidney Cupcake

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    Druid then. Obviously I meant the one that wasn't just 'here's your rotation'.
  4. Kidney

    Kidney Cupcake

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    Also, since I love having the unpopular opinion:

    Macros (likely via plugins) will allow you to macro any number of abilities and timing sequences. This will prove useless in actual gameplay; hotkeys no more elaborate than "Pop CD + ability" will be the norm.

    That should do it.
  5. PlayerOne

    PlayerOne Cupcake-About-Town

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    There were three, only one was some weird spam rotation trash that no one in their right mind would ever use.
  6. Kidney

    Kidney Cupcake

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    I'm obviously out of practice, but Arcane Blast 4 times looks like more than just trinkets and cooldowns.

    My point never had anything to do with WoW anyway, it was about overlapping utility to not overwhelm the player and you know it.
  7. MadBlue

    MadBlue Cupcake-About-Town

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    The site is called "World of Macros". It's not like there are only 3 of them. My point is that players use macros to simplify combat because you need to press fewer keys. There are plenty of macros of the "cast A; if A isn't available, cast B; if B isn't available, cast C" variety. There are plenty of the "press A which procs a boost to B, then press B" variety, There are plenty of the "if stunned, press A; if rooted, press B; if not stunned or rooted, press C to heal" variety as well. One key press can be used to do completely different actions, or a chain of related actions.

    It doesn't matter if WildStar has macros or not, or if the things you can do with macros in WoW doesn't "dumb down" combat to a level you suggest WildStar does. My point is that people try as best they can to simplify complexity, and they do so successfully with great regularity - and they reap the rewards for doing so because it makes them more efficient players than those who don't. So why value players for reducing complexity to as few key presses as possible on the one hand and criticize designers for designing a game that requires fewer key presses to begin with on the other?

    WildStar has a different style of combat. Players are going to have to be more attentive to what the mobs are doing. Granted, solo play may be somewhat more similar to GW2 than WoW, but party play will be nothing like GW2 because it has a Trinity. Many healing spells are going to have to be aimed, you can't just stand there looking at healbot and right or left-click to heal your party members. You'll have to be mobile, and the party will have to coordinate to ensure that those who need healing are getting healed. You're going to have to decide which of the boss' attacks to weather and which ones to interrupt or avoid. The tank is going to have to learn to fight the boss without kiting him into the rest of the party. You're not going to be able to zerg the boss like in GW2. You're going to have to strategize to make sure people have efficient builds for raid boss fights. They're going to be more like WoW in complexity than GW2. The complexity of combat in WildStar isn't just based on the number of keys you have to press. This is what you're not getting that those of us who are excited about the game are.
  8. PlayerOne

    PlayerOne Cupcake-About-Town

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    Show me one.

    Again. Show me.

    Because it's much needed depth.


    If you say so. I see it very differently. I'm looking passed the sales pitch that you are lapping up and basing what I say on my experience of MMOs and what I see for myself.

    We'll see how things pan out. I'm not trying to piss in anyone's fries here, I am just calling it as I see it. It kind of feels like a lot of people here have a very fragile faith in what Carbine are doing and are desperate to to have their hopes broken. Which is very sad. I am almost certain that most of the people vehemently arguing that a dumbed down combat system is a great idea would argue against it with as much passion if Carbine flipped on it and went to a more WoW like system tomorrow.

    The game will come out (eventually) and then it is what it is. I honestly hope you like it.
  9. Xecks

    Xecks Cupcake-About-Town

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    he is right about the macros btw. the person you quoted. 1 shot swifty macro comes to mind.

    as for your argument about complexity i would argue that choosing the skills you take and what you upgrade adds a bit of complexity in and of itself. you have what? 30 skills to choose from? then the upgrades to the skills come in like 6 or so tiers wich are limited on the amount of skills you can improve. so you have that to decide on too.

    all in all i think theres plenty of complexity without being like wow with button bloat which is a bad thing imo.
    Skippy and Destian like this.
  10. PlayerOne

    PlayerOne Cupcake-About-Town

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    No. Macros such as:

    ...do not exist. Macros can't be used in that way in WoW. Macros cannot be based off of buffs, debuffs or cooldowns. The best you can do is find an ability that is off the GCD and attach an ability that is on the GCD but not always proc'd to it. But that is very rare. I can think of one class with an ability where that's both possible and semi-worthwhile.
    The 1 shot macros you are talking about are either /castsequence macros that are flaky at best or people joking around and calling their macro that pops all their off GCD damage buffs and sometimes 1 on GCD ability Swify macros. Don't buy into the hype. If macros like that existed and/or where worth using Swifty would be an amazing player. As it is he's an average Warrior at best.

    I actually really like the idea of that system. That system could be a very nice one if done right. My problem isn't with that system itself, my problem is that it's being leant on to provide the depth that the 8 button combat system is taking away when it's actually a completely out of combat system to replace depth in an in combat system, if that makes any sense at all. It's like WoW, for example, quartering the number of abilities everyone can use in combat but making the talent system far more in depth. One does not make up for the other.

    Time will tell if enough people share that view.
  11. MadBlue

    MadBlue Cupcake-About-Town

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    I'm not going to continue to scour the internet for macros just so you can continue to move the goalposts based on your opinion of the macro and claim victory.

    You're the one who has been arguing ad nauseum about which is "better". I never argued that the system WildStar is going to use is better than a WoW-type system. I showed examples of how it's a perfectly good system for an MMO, and explained why I, and others, like it. I also said, multiple times, that people have different preferences and being different doesn't make a system better or worse.

    I'm backing the game because I've come to the conclusion, using logic and intellect - and a sense of what sounds like fun to me - that I like what it's doing. You keep coming back to GW2 as a comparison. When I give specific examples of how the combat is different from GW2 and how it will be challenging in raids, you accuse me of buying into the hype and being a fawning fanboy.

    I have criticism about some of the things I've heard and seen as well, but not flooding forums with dire warnings of doom and gloom unless they change things doesn't mean I don't have a critical eye.
    Kidney likes this.
  12. Ico

    Ico Moderator • WSC's Gentle Flower

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    <Mod Face> This is the second time I've had to clean this thread. Don't make me come back guys, certainly not for the same people bickering. </Mod Face>
  13. MadBlue

    MadBlue Cupcake-About-Town

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    First, the "off the cuff" macros I gave as initial examples of the fact that they can be written to do different things based on situation, not as literal macros. It doesn't matter that there's no macro that does different things if you're rooted or stunned. What I was illustrating is that there are many macros that allow you to do different things depending on the situation. The fact that you can use a stun or interrupt with the same key depending on what form you're in as a Druid, or the fact that you can summon a pet, if summoned have it attack, if attacking have it cast a certain spell, using the same key, or the fact that you can cast different spells while others are on cooldown, using the same key, is the sole point I was trying to make. I didn't even bring up the Shift/Ctrl/Alt functions that further extend how macros are used to simplify game play.

    Second, I never claimed that macros "dumbed the game down to a WildStar type level". I said that they simplified the game by reducing the number of keys one has to press, and that. where possible, players will simplify complexity to make themselves more efficient, nothing more, nothing less. You're the only one here playing the "A is better than B" game (at least in your debate with me).

    No. The problem is that your "counterpoint" is that you are dismissing the reasons why we like this game as hype and hearsay, and rests entirely on the assumption that the devs aren't going to be able to deliver anything they've promised, even though we've seen videos of them doing just that.

    If you don't like what you see, fine. But don't claim that we're just fanboys seeing things through rose-colored glasses because you prefer a different system. Nobody here is trying to misrepresent combat in WildStar but you.
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  14. azmundai

    azmundai Well-Known Cupcake

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    yes and no. i like the idea, the choice involved, i don't feel 8 is enough ... bah dumm tshhhhh
  15. Witless

    Witless "That" Cupcake

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    No Playerone, you like a particular style. Nothing wrong with that. What the problem is is when we point out to you why we think this system can and will add depth you just shut it down and don't want to hear it because we have to be wrong.

    You liking something different, you thinking this removes depth is all okay. But, you coming in wanting to argue it instead of discuss is childish. You can't have a discussion if one side isn't open to seeing another point of view. You have proven through this thread that you are unwilling.

    You use your experiences as you said...

    But yet when the folks who are arguing with you in the same way, you consider them fanboys and lappin up a sales pitch. This attitude is why I stopped arguing with you.
    teh_ninjaneer likes this.
  16. Destian

    Destian Cupcake-About-Town

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    I don't know if I can really get behind this because WoW, an MMO which certainly had longevity, has a very low skill ceiling for nearly all classes: At a certain point, you're nailing your rotation and that's pretty much all you can do.

    Wildstar is going to take that a step further by ensuring that individual players are responsible not only for performing their rotation but also AIMING it correctly while also ensuring they use their evasion abilities to not stand in the bad.

    The odds are far greater that you will FEEL yourself getting better at Wildstar, since greater skill will = greater reward, and the skill ceiling of WS's classes will be dramatically higher than classes in games that tab target the boss then spam the same rotation for 8 minutes straight.

    Having played Tera, I can vouch for the fact that an action-combat system brings LOADS of depth (and fun) to the MMO genre. Tera allowed you to solo monsters that should require a party, so long as you're good enough. If Tera's endgame hadn't been so awful, I'd likely still be playing it.

    If Wildstar can deliver an endgame worth playing, then for the first time ever, Bliz should be afraid for WoW's future.
  17. Doc Scudz

    Doc Scudz New Cupcake

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    Okay, I have to say, I have been playing mmo's for 10 years, and I've been in many betas. Right now there are very few enjoyable MMOs in my opinion. I am in between mmos, while trying to chose my new future game, and right now it looks like wildstar has me most interested. A HUGE factor into me choosing Wildstar over the rest, is the limited Action set. One thing that makes an mmo great is the ability to have individuality, Imagine a world where you have 3 trees to pick from, and say... I dont know, 60 points to spend? But first you have to spend 55 points in one tree to unlock the other 2.... jees... this sounds familiarly annoying ;). What this causes is a lack of individuality, and creativity, You are forced to follow one or two perfect specs, that the pros made and everyone followed. This means, that if you are face to face with an enemy who knows the game well, then he will be able to figure out what your moves will be, and he might just be able to predict your every move! Well you see that sucks, and with limited action set you have the choice of what you want to run! This means that, - no one will be able to predict your every move based on the class you play! You won't be a conforming zombie! You will be allowed to think and develop your skill set to your preferred play style! This is so attractive in an mmo, for pvp purposes, and the fact that if you don't enjoy a certain aspect of a class, you will have many opportunities to alter them!
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  18. Destian

    Destian Cupcake-About-Town

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    Too add to this, LASes (lassies?) will also ensure that no one will be able to approach an enemy player with total understanding of what abilities they have and how to beat them.

    For example, in WoW, there's a very specific way each spec should fight each other spec. This won't happen in WS because you won't know what abilities an enemy is using until you start fighting them, and you're going to need to identify them by their telegraphs.
  19. Jeuraud

    Jeuraud Cupcake-About-Town

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    Towing the line implies that those of us who likes the W* LAS system are unwilling or incapable of going against the Carbine Devs (The Authority.), which is both demeaning and ludicrous.
    I have authority issues; I found this out as an E3 in the Navy when my E5 supervisor tried to tell me the problem I found with the bird could not be a problem because they had never seen it. I did not back down because they were an E5 and I was an E3; I showed them in the schematics why what I said was bad...could be bad, and then went and replaced the part I said was bad and fixed the bird.

    I do not accept somebodies word just because they have some type of authority, or their supposed to be an expert. I observe and make my own decisions, and my experience as a professional in various maintenance positions tells me I’m pretty damn good at observing. It’s the <REDACTED>ing basses of troubleshooting.

    What you are saying is that anybody who likes the W* LAS system has been mesmerized by the W* show.

    So in the privious veiled insult we are to cowed by authority to speak against the authority, and in this veiled insult we are to feeble-minded to get past the show and see the "real" W* LAS system.

    I guess I must have some feeble-mindedness, because I have yet to see any evidence from you that backs your opinion.
    What I have seen is opinion given as fact, and a whole lot of thinly veiled insults.
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  20. Convicted

    Convicted Super Cupcake

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    I think we're all seeing this in a similar way -

    Most people would say that this makes the battle harder, and the skill ceiling higher, especially when you consider the variations with AMPs and how they will affect whichever LAS build you are fighting with, not to mention having to aim said abilities.

    Most people would say if you had a total understanding of what abilities the other player/s have and how to beat them in a very specific way, AND had all those abilities available at hand....that would make the battle easier, especially when using a tab-target system which always hits.

    Sounds to me like some people are just plain scared of the LAS, and their own fail.
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