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Do you like having a limited action set?

Discussion in 'WildStar General' started by Perigon, Dec 5, 2013.

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Limited action set?

  1. Yay

    73.3%
  2. Nay

    12.7%
  3. May...be?

    14.0%
  1. Avenged

    Avenged Cupcake-About-Town

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    So I have thought about this a bit more, and I can honestly say that I have actually changed my own opinion on the topic. To start out, I will re-iterate that I am not a fan of a limited action set, but at the same time the reason why I do not agree with it is because of the way it is advertised. In almost every devspeak we hear the same exact quote, " And thanks to the limited actions set, you can build out your character however you want." This never set well with me, because it skirted the fact that you could also build out your character however you wanted to without a limited action set. So I think it was the catch phrase more then the actual LAS in general that caused me the most grief.

    So there are two things about the limited action set that are true, and they contradict themselves in nature.

    Fact one is that limited actions sets create depth in game play because they force meta style choices for each encounter.

    Fact two is that limited action sets reduce depth in game play because they restrict the player in their choices in each given fight.

    These are two things that are both true about this system, and I find that a majority of the arguments are willing to accept one side and not the other. Now where I have changed in my own thought process over it though is if the limited action sets creates one thing in the game. This thing is of course balance. I am fine with a LAS if the main goal is not to actually limit the ability to do everything, but is instead used as a balancing feature in order to provide a more diverse skill set within each class. This occurred to me when I got into a conversation recently about the old WoW talent systems. In the original system we were given the ability to choose certain talents, but some talents were gated behind other talents. Also we could cross class as much as we wanted to in hybrid situations. Blizzard decided that the best way to balance this, after several iterations, is instead that you choose your spec and are given everything that the class offers. They then gave less meaningful decisions for the talent system. I am a huge proponent of the old Blizzard Talent system. Although I never had to choose every talent in the tree that I went into, I chose the talents that not only fit my character the most, but I also had to make meaningful choices that helped to define my class. Now over time with the first system the choices felt less meaningful, as when I hit BIS in BC there was a min/maxed build out that I pretty much felt the need to use with maybe a 3 skill differential on flavor skills. This is not something I chose though because I felt I had to. It was something that I chose to do because the content that we were pushing were necessary.

    If I compare it to WoW, then the LAS is like WoW's original talent system. You may not be able to have everything, but you can build the talent system in a way to help build your character in a way that you need to. For theory crafting it can get even more exciting. Maybe I need to change my opener now because my gear / skills allow me create higher threat / dps / healing with a different builder. Obviously the LAS would not disallow anyone from making this decision based on a skill, but at the same time they would be less willing to nerf an ability if everyone can not have the same access to it at the same effectiveness.

    Just my 2.... actually like 10 cents.

    edit: I will give an MMO example of what I mean when I say it can help to create balance. If you take the rogue in wow, then one of the large complaints from people is the stun lock. I am ok if a stalker has 3 stuns in this game if taking 3 stuns means they have to gimp their characters chance at having the highest amount of burst damage.
    teh_ninjaneer likes this.
  2. MadBlue

    MadBlue Cupcake-About-Town

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    No. My whole point was simply to show that you could do different things with one key. My mistake was just naming some spells off the top of my head to illustrate what I meant and getting the example wrong, and you keep dwelling on that as if it invalidates my point. I've successfully made my point using actual macros that do exist. The one you keep harping on (different effect based on being rooted/stunned etc) could be made with Ctrl/Shift/Alt + key though.

    You've haven't shown that WildStar has less depth, though. A system like WoW's could be seen as "more complex than it needs to be," especially for a game that relies as much on movement and spell placement as WildStar does.

    The thing is, no matter how good an MMO is, a significant number of players will always be jumping ship to try the next one that comes along, and new MMOs are appearing so quickly that many players don't give themselves the chance to improve at a game before their attention is drawn by something else.

    WoW is a great game, but its success is owed, in part, to the fact that it was a successful, mature game, built on an existing IP, with a large population of hard-core adherents at level cap, long before the industry started cranking out MMOs left and right. Its success has made it the MMO that's used as a measuring stick for all other MMOs - the problem is that it's used as a measuring stick to determine what a successful MMO is, when it's in a league of its own. It had a working formula , and it's a formula that has been copied by many MMOs since (and WoW, itself was influenced by earlier MMOs). Granted, a lot of developers don't want to stray too far from that because they want to play it safe, but that doesn't mean it's the only formula that can work for an MMO.

    Although it's difficult to gauge population for F2P or B2P games, GW2 is considered a very popular MMO, and probably will be for a while, and LOTRO has been seeing continuous development since 2007. Those are two fantasy MMOs, one similar to WoW (LOTRO) and one very different (GW2) that are probably not going away any time soon. Neither of which have close to the population that WoW does, but they're pretty successful compared to many other MMOs. In addition, SWTOR is still doing well, in spite of the taste that it left in many people's mouths. There are many more MMOs, as well. What measuring stick are you using to determine whether WildStar will be good enough "to last"?

    When you dismiss anyone coming up with a counterpoint as not using their intellect or logic, yes.

    We have been talking about what has actually been shown. You've been dismissing it as "buying into the hype".

    Ain't it though.
  3. Avenged

    Avenged Cupcake-About-Town

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    Btw. What up Cotp
  4. Jeuraud

    Jeuraud Cupcake-About-Town

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    Not in a Hybrid Class system you couldn’t.
    Once you have chosen a class in W* the first strategic choice you have to make…and get to make… is what type of gameplay style (DPS, Hybrid, Support) you want your character to play. If everybody had access to all 30 abilities all the time there would be no differentiation of gameplay styles within a class; A Medic would always be a DPS-Healer and a Warrior would always be a DPS-Tank. This would make for a very limited and unbalanced game.

    The W* LAS also allows you to choose your gameplay style as I mentioned, but it also allows you to change your gameplay style or add another gameplay style to your character. You could go from being a DPS Esper to a Healer Esper without having to go to another character.

    Does it reduce depth in each given fight?
    The number of Abilities available is not the only factor in game depth. When to use/not use an Ability is also a factor, and becomes more important with lesser Abilities to choose from.
    I.e. If I’m a Warrior and have 3 CCs available to me I can use Kick to cause knockdown and Vulnerability any time it’s available. If it is the only CC available I have to choose when to use it, or possibly not have it available to knock down a Boss’s Interrupt Armor.

    In scenario 1 there is no consequences, so there is no reason not to use Kick. In scenario 2 you have to think about the consequences of your choice.
    Of the 2 scenarios which one is the more complex choice?
  5. Avenged

    Avenged Cupcake-About-Town

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    Soo... The first point you argued was over what they say in the devspeak... I do not understand what you are trying to achieve here.

    "Not in a Hybrid Class system you couldn’t.
    Once you have chosen a class in W* the first strategic choice you have to make…and get to make… is what type of gameplay style (DPS, Hybrid, Support) you want your character to play. If everybody had access to all 30 abilities all the time there would be no differentiation of gameplay styles within a class; A Medic would always be a DPS-Healer and a Warrior would always be a DPS-Tank. This would make for a very limited and unbalanced game."

    Never argued against this point.

    I was going to argue the other points, but I saw that you actually did not read what I actually said. The 2 things that I posted are facts. I know it feels really awesome to break down a post, point by point, but the fact of the matter is that the LAS both creates, and removes depth at the same time from a game play point of view. The fact of the matter is that you could bring up a ton of examples for either point. The thing is that it does not mean that either of those initial points are invalid though. It just means that you can argue one or the other.

    The only thing your rant has done is highlight one of my first points, which is that some people have the inability to see that an LAS has both positive and negative effects on game play. Everything else I have posted is personal opinion and not fact. The 2 points that I posted as facts though, are actual facts. Can you argue that having to make decisions on each encounter is not a factor in gameplay depth? Can you also argue against the fact that removing factors from encounters can be contributed to a lack of game play depth? If you can then provide real examples. I have no clue what you posted originally, because I did not read it. So if you are taking this as a slant against yourself that you need to argue for, then you are barking up the wrong tree.
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  6. MadBlue

    MadBlue Cupcake-About-Town

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    Hey, Avenged. CotP is doing fine. Lots of activity, although we're spread out over different games. Who do you know from the guild?
  7. Avenged

    Avenged Cupcake-About-Town

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    We played against your guild in Darkfall.
  8. Ico

    Ico Moderator • WSC's Gentle Flower

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    <Mod Face> Thread cleaned for the third time. Repeatedly ignoring warnings will just get you banned guys. </Mod Face>
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  9. MadBlue

    MadBlue Cupcake-About-Town

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    :oops: Sorry, Ico. I didn't even realize my posts were being edited until just now. In any case, I don't want to continue to say things that are going to get me banned.
  10. Jeuraud

    Jeuraud Cupcake-About-Town

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    I was arguing this statement
    which I thought should have been <REDACTED>ing obvious from my reply, and now I'm falling back on the Twain principle.
  11. Ico

    Ico Moderator • WSC's Gentle Flower

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    <Mod Face> Edits were primarily just to cut out certain quoted sections. Lets move on and see if we can't keep this thread on the rails. :)</Mod Face>
  12. Destian

    Destian Cupcake-About-Town

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    Yep.

    In vanilla WoW, I can vouch for the fact that there was an EXACT procedure for a shadow priest to take down a shaman in PvP. The rest just came down to gear.

    WS will be all the better for it if the "procedure" will be something we need to determine from careful identification of every telegraph.

    Yes, this means that the player who has played as one of everything will be well-prepared for PvP, exactly as it should be.
  13. Destian

    Destian Cupcake-About-Town

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    But more abilities ≠ more depth. The game of "Go" has exactly one "ability": Place a stone. The depth comes from planning your strategy around that stone.

    Same can largely go for Wildstar: Sometimes, using a telegraph to scare someone out of an area and into another area is part of a bigger strategy.

    WoW's classes have a stupid number of buttons, but that doesn't at all make the game deeper, especially not when most of those abilities are tab targeted.

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