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Do you like PVP stats and why?

Discussion in 'WildStar General' started by Philips_666, Apr 24, 2013.

?

Do you like PVP stats?

  1. Yes

    51.6%
  2. No

    48.4%
  1. Virtual On

    Virtual On Cupcake

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    What I'm reading from that is that you have gear tiers, and within those tiers you are put with people of similar ELO.

    Say you're a warrior and using STR for DPS, what I take from that quote is that Tier 5 may be 49- STR, and Tier 4 may be 50-99 STR, as an example(from gear), and then from within that it would put people of similar ELO/skill. If you're in Tier 5, it normalizes all your stats to X level, and if you're in Tier 4 it normalizes your stats to X+Y level.

    That's what I'm getting from it, and if what I am thinking is correct, the only thing I'm afraid of is queue times.

    It seems like a good system, with gear still mattering(I'm wondering about some kind of enchants or whatever it is, like the move speed "chip" on boots they spoke about), but we'll have to see just how viable it is.
  2. Patrician

    Patrician "That" Cupcake

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    And that's actually why I am guessing they chose to go with a cross-server queue system. ^^
  3. unindel

    unindel Cupcake

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    If you're queueing into unranked battlegrounds then you'd have tiers based on gear (it's probably more like some combination of all your stats instead of just your main stat, but that's just speculation). I don't think it considers Elo for unranked play simply because it's "unranked." It likely is just trying to even out gear.

    If you're queueing into ranked battlegrounds then instead of looking at gear at all they just pull in people of similar Elo and then subsequently normalize the gear everyone is wearing to some level (not sure what this level is; maybe they have predetermined stat levels for different Elo levels; maybe it's a statistic like average or max based on the players who end up in that particular match).

    Either way your gear matters at the very least in the sense that you can customize the relative weighting of various stats and it's relatively fair. Queue times could be an issue but hopefully with cross-realm queuing they can have a large enough player pool to make it alright. Arenas and Warplots at the very least are playable against your own faction (not sure about battlegrounds).
  4. Veckna

    Veckna Well-Known Cupcake

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    If only they worked in combat :D (for those of us not playing classes with a vanish/feign death mechanic hehe).
    As to my attitude I just give stuff a try before I feel I'm qualified to comment on it (and I can still be wrong then too :oops:) and it's just a case of weighing up the pros and cons (for myself) logically. Or that I'm old and past it :laugh:
  5. Veckna

    Veckna Well-Known Cupcake

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    Not sure how this PvP gear changes any of this?
    On the US PvP server in Rift from launch I used to kill the ganking rogues hanging around the daily quest areas all the time just fine, so much so that they started stealthing and just ccing me because they didn't want to fight. That or getting guild groups to come after me (which was amusing one time as myself and a guildmate repeatedly wiped 6 people due to them focusing his melee cleric and leaving my chloromancer spec mage alone to heal him - idiots are great :up: ).
    The point about watching your surroundings is valid but only helps in certain situations - stealthers attacking you or people riding up on mounts will generally not give you chance to get out of combat and change gear (assuming you were doing a rift or killing quest mobs etc).
    With rerolling I was put back at the bottom rung of the PvP gear ladder anyway so even if I saw someone coming it was more a case of 'nuke them, hit for 20% of my normal damage, cc them, run' (or in rare cases hit them for normal damage and think - yay I can fight this one).

    Playing in PvE gear to optimise your performance does not = tunnel vision/being oblivious to all around you :p

    Giving people gear that allows them to faceroll others does not really have anything to do with 'educating people on PvP' or make players more partial to stick with the PvP playstyle if that's their first taste of it.

    Maybe I've misunderstood the point you were trying to make as otherwise it just doesn't make any sense (if your point was to imply that I was unfamiliar with typical PvP environment play then you were mistaken - take it from someone who had a Jedi in SWG back when there was permadeath for us :p).
  6. Outlaw

    Outlaw Cupcake-About-Town

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    Why wouldn't they work in combat? In Aion you can change gear at any time as long as you aren't CC'd or in the middle of an action. Don't see why it'd be difficult for them to do it that way.
  7. CRB_Gortok

    CRB_Gortok Carbine Econ Designer

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    Anything that you "can" do that is more optimal becomes the way it has to be done. If you get an edge by swapping items while waiting for cooldowns or when you want to heal yourself, I am sure there will be mods that assist for it, and soon enough it will be required for top tier play. Boy does that not sound like a fun way to have to play to be competitive.
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  8. Outlaw

    Outlaw Cupcake-About-Town

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    Actually, for me, that's a lot of fun. It was especially fun when I could switch to a defensive set if I'm being kited (as a melee tank) or an offensive set for when I've closed distance. It was something I could do in response to a changing environment, much like dodging would be your response to a telegraph. It was something extra I needed to think about, but it was also something I enjoyed, and got rewarded for doing.

    True, people could make a mod to do that to make it easier and so people wouldn't have to make a macro for it, but people can make mods for a lot of things in game. Someone could potentially make a mod that put "USE DODGE NOW!" when there was an enemy telegraph on the ground. In both situations the final decision is up to the player. Should I switch my gear now? What gear should I switch to? Is it vital for me to dodge this telegraph now? Will I be leaving myself vulnerable for an even more damaging attack?

    Both of those situations will reward the player for making fast, informed decisions and add a level of complexity I like.
  9. Inimicus

    Inimicus Cupcake

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    I'm confused by this thread, people are complaining they dont want to have to swap gear, i might be crazy but the way i understood things, unless you are doing OW PvP which you do in your PvE gear, PvP will be done in Arenas/Battlegrounds, which are separate from the "normal world" so why not, much like GW2, have the game auto swap you to PVP gear in a "Lobby Zone".

    It was also my understanding that Carbine want the Structured PvP to be a somewhat legitimate esport, i personally feel that the best way to do this is to take out a gear progression, or make it so that you have leagues and a PvP rating and make the tiers a set stat value with gemming/enchant options.

    i.e:

    Bronze League - Players with Rating </= 1000 (yay random numbers) all have access to Gear Set 1

    Jim in Bronze plays games and gets the required wins/points to boost his rating to 1001

    Jim moves to Silver League

    Silver League - Players with Rating >1000 and <2000 all have access to Gear Set 2 (higher stats and more epic looking than set 1)

    The Jim gets to gold league coz he's awesome etc

    Only downside of this system is what to do if players aren't as good as the others that move into the higher league once they get into it, there needs to be a rating degradation to keep the leagues balanced, but if moving league unlocks higher stat gear, do we then revert Jim back to Gear set 1 if he falls back out of Silver?

    Personally i think yes, it gives him a reason to want to get better and back up to the higher league.

    As i say, personally i would be happy with no gear progression at all and just all players having normalised gear in Structured PvP so then any progression through leagues and leaderboard standings is purely based on skill and how you have specced and gemmed etc, showing a clear understanding of your class and individual playstyle. I just hope that Carbine offers enough individual customisation without it being based on getting gear with more "power", i.e. having a slightly more crit focussed build or going for slightly more haste at the cost of crit or something, just to make it so you can match your build more to your playstyle and not just have the "cookie cutter" builds that everyone uses.
  10. Relapse

    Relapse Cupcake

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    The problem with 100% stat balance in MMOPvP is that fact that every example we have of this the PvP became dry and boring 1-2 months in because there was a very blatant lack of progression.
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  11. Sol

    Sol Cupcake-About-Town

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    What I don't understand is why people see PvP as a progression path at all for anything other than the progression of their skill in PvP and getting better at winning matches. If that is the case PvP stats/ gear becomes completely redundant. One of the few things GW2 got right imo.

    And yes, I know a vast majority disagree - I just simply don't understand why you want gear imbalance a deciding factor when duking it out. It smacks of cowardice to me and an unwillingness to truly test your skills...
  12. Afrotech

    Afrotech Cupcake-About-Town

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    Oh but it doesn't stop there other people who feel this way also tend to see pvp as a mini game and pvp'ers as a small but extremely vocal niche group and within that thinking lies the source of the confusion.

    As far as I know this will be a lewt based game so it's kind of like saying.. "the way I play is more important or challenging than the way you play so my rewards should be greater than yours".



    When the concept of resilience wasn't even a twinkle in the pvp dev teams eye at Blizzard there existed cowards the only difference is they were often wearing raid gear since pvp gear did not exist.

    In many games I have played over the years there seems to always be a spot where pvp'ers congregate to duel and test out their skills and I have observed that the people who become infamous for being gankers and griefers are almost never among this congregation.

    There will always be bullies and bullies don't seek out opponents they seek out victims.
  13. Patrician

    Patrician "That" Cupcake

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    See the trouble is exactly as you said, a vast majority of people who played GW2 would disagree with you. However that reason you cite has nothing to with it.

    I am a PvE person who also can't get enough PvP. When PvP finally started to be a thing in WoW with battlegrounds (before then I was running about the world and fighting at Tarren Mill like everyone else ^^) I was doing pretty ok in the raid gear department. It didn't feel fair. I was actually glad they introduced the PvP stat system because it gave those who didn't like to raid and just want to PvP a chance. The whole "play how you want to play" option.

    But then I played GW2 years later and I thought "Yes! No stats on gear! Finally we can just play PvP and not worry about grinding for gear, or come back to a game after a long absence and not be at a disadvantage!"

    And you know what? It sucked. PvP was so disconnected from the game and the only progression was certain outfit looks... it just... it didn't motivate me at all to play. I just felt such zero motivation to do it. It felt pointless. So I never did it except for very rare occasions. And then I just stopped altogether.

    It's not about owning someone in PvP due to better gear. It's about getting that piece of better gear and slapping it on and then going to a target dummy and doing better DPS, or healing on yourself, or taking just a bit less damage. It's about progression and building you character up to a powerhouse from a scrub. People need that, and want that, in MMOs... why should PvP be any different?

    So here comes Carbine and they acknowledge that, so to keep things on a more even keel they introduce all the good system. They have rallying, PvP stats, and ELO raiting affecting your matches.

    The only thing against this is "oh I have to grind two sets of gear if I like both!" In other games in order to remain competitive and not be facerolled in PvP, yeah sure you had to put a ton of time into it.

    However if their systems in place work out, you can play exactly how you want. You can spend all your time in raiding and then whenever you want to dip into PvP you CAN, because you'll probably be matched with people in your similar gear level, similar ELO rating, and then the rallying system further kicks in normalizing as much as it can.

    You don't need to stay up till 5 a.m. every night farming PvP gear just to remain competitive if you spend all your prime time effort on PvE gear and raids. So don't worry! :) Question it and have it explained, sure. If you get into their beta, test it out and see how it works. But it sounds like they are just trying to create a system where it gives us the best of both worlds: Progression in PvP and not so high a barrier for entry.
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  14. Veckna

    Veckna Well-Known Cupcake

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    Gortok beat me to it - as he says it allows people to macro gear swaps for advantage (not just in PvP) so if you had a self heal you could macro a healing gear set to be swapped in before casting it for max effect, max dps gear before you blew dps cd's, max defence gear for when you needed to mitigate damage. It makes the game a gear collecting/macroing one instead of giving a consequence for making gear choices.
    Some people like aspect, others don't. I'd rather have pre fight choice + consequence myself but like I said some prefer the flexibility of the swap system - I would imagine it's very hard to balance the latter though unless you assume everyone has access to every bit of gear available which would probably punish a large portion of the player base who don't farm all the gear.
    Effectively it's adding another ability button(s) that requires inventory space (as a member of junk hoarders anonymous I'd have to protest against this!).
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  15. Inimicus

    Inimicus Cupcake

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    It is for this reason that (and here is where i feel GW2 dropped the ball on PvP) you need a good ranking/ leaderboard system, that way there is a clear indicator of where you stand and something to aim for, GW2 went "here it's all fair" then totally forgot to give anyone a real sense of competition.
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  16. Naunet

    Naunet Well-Known Cupcake

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    As much as I theoretically agree with the philosophy, I can't help but find it horrendously hypocritical when one considers how so many PvE folks want to be able to PvP happily whenever they want with a low barrier for entry but at the same time want to keep out the majority of the playerbase from raiding.
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  17. Patrician

    Patrician "That" Cupcake

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    It can get hypocritical, exactly. Way too many people nowadays want to both feel special and elite and unique and then they also want to have that feeling for EVERY aspect of the game.

    The real interesting thing will be to see if any player is able to achieve top PvP gear AND top raid gear... Because from what I've seen there is just... So MUCH content it'll take a lot of effort!

    Thankfully it's just a very vocal minority (and I'm not necessarily refering to anyone on these forums here either) who want it "easy" to get both, and I don't believe Carbine listens to them.
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  18. Afrotech

    Afrotech Cupcake-About-Town

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    Agreed rarely do you encounter pvp leaning players concerning themselves with what rewards pve'ers get even if they themselves enjoy or don't enjoy pve, but then again some believe that pvp in MMO's is not an important form of progression that it should be removed completely and that this style of play should be found only in genres like FPS or RTS.
  19. Sol

    Sol Cupcake-About-Town

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    Firstly, my comments are for tournament style pvp, not open world. I definitely agree bullies are always present no matter what system and they never seek a fair fight. I'll be honest and say I don't know the way (or even think there is a good way) to prevent this, I just think you have to accept it will always be there. Just like IRL there are always @sshats you can't control.

    Like I said, I realise I'm the minority and I'll certainly not stop PvPing just because I need to farm gear. For me GW2 was the PvP mecca until I got over the zerg WvW, 1 game type pvp and the poor implementation of their LAS which lead to spammy play; not because I didn't have more gear to grind. I had plenty of that, it just didn't affect my performance.

    I just don't see PvP as a gear progression path - but I agree others do. For me I don't care if we hit each other with sticks doing 2 damage each, I'm going to try my best to do it better, faster and with more finesse than you to win the encounter; and that is the only thing that matters to me.​
    I'm not saying you are wrong and I am right, just expression my views on the subject and trying to understand why others need the grind.​

    Your point is my very own opinion on why GW2 PvP failed. Everyone expected eSports quality stuff and got nothing, literally nothing that even suggested PvP was important to them on release. The game should never have released without qaulifying, leader boards, private servers or spectator mode. I would bet a pretty penny that GW2 pvp would be a completely different scene had this happened.​
  20. Sevvy

    Sevvy Cupcake-About-Town

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    PvP stats, BGs and Arenas, no World PvP at launch. This game is going to be awesome! For the 3 months I'll play it... ;)

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