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Do you like PVP stats and why?

Discussion in 'WildStar General' started by Philips_666, Apr 24, 2013.

?

Do you like PVP stats?

  1. Yes

    51.6%
  2. No

    48.4%
  1. Zero713

    Zero713 Cupcake

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    Now I didn't read all 8 pages, and when I voted in the poll its currently at 67 yes and 68 no, so things seem split. This is just my opinion.

    I play Guild Wars 2, among other games, and I really like the PVP in GW2. I am a casual player, and am not able to play all the time, so I voted to not have PVP stats. I enjoy the GW2 take on armor. Gear purely for aesthetics, and skill based combat. I can take time off, and come back and be just as competitive. I enjoy seeing different armor tiers, and making my character look bad ass is enough motivation for me to play and level.The only place I think they could improve is I am rank 34 (I think), and it feels like forever for me to get a new level. That is kind of taking the thrill of new gear away.

    Other than that, my PVP level is universal through ALL characters. So I can play my thief one day, a necro the next, and so on and so forth. I really like being able to pick up a class and pvp, instead of spending 80+ hours leveling that character to cap just to compete with them. I can see both sides to this though, but it is nice to have variety and get a feel for another class.
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  2. Danny Nielsen

    Danny Nielsen Cupcake

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    I voted yes, i mostly do pve, but if i have done 1000 hours of pvp to be owned by a fully raid geared pve'er who has done 2 hours of pvp, that sucks. And can't really see any other way to solve that, but pvp stats.
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  3. Outlaw

    Outlaw Cupcake-About-Town

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    Makes perfect sense to me. People talk about games that normalize stats or don't have stats at all in PvP, but they're talking about games that either don't have OW PvP or rely on players farming PvE gear.

    Don't see why you should need to PvE to PvP.
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  4. agien

    agien Cupcake

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    The reason I like the PVP stat is that it separates PVE and PVP gear.

    I do not think a person who raids all the time should be able to come in and wipe people out because they PVE and have raid gear.

    I do not think a person who PVPs all the time should be able to come in and out DPS people because he got his PVP gear faster.

    As somebody who did PVP almost exclusively in WoW it really annoyed me when to be the best I would have to PVE. Something I just did not want to do in the least.


    If you do not want a PVP stat I would say put a limiter on gear that says this gear can not be use in instanced PvE and this gear can not be used in instanced PvP. Something like that to keep them separate outside of open world.

    Edit: A good way to help with a PvP stat is have a starter set that is easy to obtain and makes people a bit more competitive when just starting out.

    Just how I feel about it.
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  5. Pixie

    Pixie Cupcake-About-Town

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    Ooo I know! I know!

    We can swap gear in the middle of combat...but only if we enter a telephone booth!
  6. EpicBubble

    EpicBubble Cupcake

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    I still think GW and GW2 had the best method when it came to PvP.... though the separation felt a bit to extreme at times.

    If they do PvP it should be purely PvP and not be able to use it outside PvP while stuff like World pvp or attacking warplots would still use PvE gear. I wouldn't mind seeing pvp rewards such as gear skins as a reward which can be used in PvE
  7. Afrotech

    Afrotech Cupcake-About-Town

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    Are you are saying pvp gear should be solely restricted to pvp activities, but pve gear should be flexible for both pve and pvp?
  8. EpicBubble

    EpicBubble Cupcake

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    Well in GW2 Realm vs Realm is PvE gear. Look if your doing pvp would you not prefer to be equally matched with other people I mean proper team based arena pvp? Its harder because there is world PvP in wildstar so restricting doesn't really work out but im sure there can be healthy compromise.

    There is a difference between world pvp and structured pvp like arena combat battlegrounds and such.
  9. Afrotech

    Afrotech Cupcake-About-Town

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    In Gw2 there is only one type of server so it makes sense.

    WildStar is using the ELO rating system to match players with similar gear in instanced based pvp but, since there will be separate pvp/pve gear they should be most useful to their respective activities but not both.
  10. Slumberparty

    Slumberparty New Cupcake

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    I think a really simple, yet slightly elegant option is to simply flag items as pvp or pve (probably just for elder game).

    What I propose, is that a pvp item and a pve item of identical item level / value be IDENTICAL stat wise (visually they should be different). In the overworld, players who have spent approximately equal amount of time / have equal amount of gear should be on equal footing (crazy I know).

    However, once the players enter a bg/arena or dungeon/raid, the items scale slightly. A pvp flagged item could give a 1% damage/healing/health buff per piece (so totaling like a 10% boost for a full set?) when in a BG. This gives the pvper an advantage, but not an insurmountable one, while in their area over a pve'er.

    Likewise, when a dungeon/raid flagged geared player goes in to an instance, they have an advantage, but the pvper who is running with him is able to compete, albeit at a slight disadvantage.

    Players who want to do both still can, and get both types. Players who just pve would be able to go in to a BG and compete, without clowning purely pvpers (and vice versa)

    With this, I also propose an across the board damage (10%?) and healing (25%) debuff while in BGs / Arena. A reoccurring issue with MMO pvp, is that the characters abilities are designed to take down raid bosses, and scale accordingly. If you're built to outheal a giant robot that hits for 35% of a fully buffed tank's health each swing, you're going to easily outheal and out sustain a single dpser. I'm not advocating that a single dps can just instagib a healer, but there's a fine line between healing being too powerful, and dps blowing everything up.
  11. AcidBaron

    AcidBaron "That" Cupcake

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    Yes as the alternative of having the same stat pool and making raid gear the best PvP gear is a much worse and imbalanced solution.

    A static flat out ability decrease, removes the ability to evolve your character what is detrimental in an RPG.
    And still makes Raid gear the best option. A static stat in PvP to help players get into it is one thing but it has to be in supplement to PvP stats that can be improved in other ways.

    Handing out the same stat items from PvP as PvE, undermines the carrot part of PvE and is detrimental to the raiding scene of a game.

    It all has been tried, tested and seen before. At least i know i have and the only system that actually works when introduced correctly and a lot of mistakes are still made on that front is PvP stats.

    Of course there should still be a % difference and it shouldn't become too great as some games did such as WAR. There always has to be an easy access to starter gear and so on.

    PvPers should gradually improve their ability by PvPing
    PvE'ers should gradually improve their ability by PvEing.
    Neither group should be forced to do one or the other to advance in the meta game they like.
    Neither group should be completely useless in the other meta game but the one they participate in and gear for they have a small edge.

    WoW told us a lot of things and is personally currently in the best position for a themepark.

    Therefor i'm glad to see developers are thinking straight and not following blindly into what players think they want until they actually get it.
  12. Virtual On

    Virtual On Cupcake

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    Do you know how silly this sounds?

    "I like to PvP. That means fighting other players. That means my skill against theirs. I udnerstand that gear makes a difference, but if person X got their gear through PvE, then I should be able to beat them regardless, since I have PvP gear."

    That is stupid, and against what PvP is.

    Gear should be allowed to co-mingled, the trick is to making them take the same amount of time/effort required. This is a very tough thing to do, but a system that helps minimize abuse is the system they are going to use.

    From what was posted earlier, and how I interpreted it, there will be an ELO system to match people within certain skill ranges, and then their will be gear tiers where your stats are normalized. So say there is Tier 5 and 4, they each have stat requirements to get to. Once you reach them, you are in that tier and your stats are normalized.

    That is the exact quote.



    But, back to my point, complete separation is an idiotic idea, especially if(as usual) PvP gear will simply be a point/token grind. It deters people who enjoy both PvE and PvP, and only serves to further distinguish PvP from PvE. As long as you're equal, who cares? PvP isn't about facerolling, it's about beating and getting beaten. It's about learning.

    So why are you against more competition?
  13. AcidBaron

    AcidBaron "That" Cupcake

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    To reply to Virtual On,

    I can personally see your point but i find your view on things are a bit incomplete.
    The reason PvP stats exist is to prevent pvpers from actually having to "grind", with grind i mean participating repeatedly in something they don't like.

    Without it you would be required to raid to simply be on the same level as how much they normalize said gear levels there will always be an issue of item budgets being in total higher due to more secondary stats stacking also, it refers only to "Unranked Battlegrounds" Where my concern coming from WoW and having played a few expansions is the ranked ones, I detest greatly the days of Raid Weapons and Trinkets being superior, idem for set bonuses and the current and even going further upcoming changes has made it all more competitive all together.

    They made is so PvE trinkets and Weapons are unwanted by adding an offensive PvP stat on top of their defensive one.

    Now i can get your reasoning if you come from a game, such as Warhammer where the PvP tiers are constantly stacked on top of each other it becomes such a silly grind. In other games it takes almost no time to get into basic gear level and you only have one higher superior step up that adds a marginal increase.


    I Also don't find you can ever put PvE vs PvP effort and time on the same level. As they are not measurable factors. I actually find that comment strange, as wouldn't it do the opposite of what you want? Let's say to get on the same level of 40 man raids you would need the same time and effort commitment on PvP and we know that PvE is going to pretty hardcore minded here design wise with raid attunuation followed by gearing in 20's and then moving on to 40's.

    Wouldn't that make PvP such a large grind to get them on the same level? Weeks and weeks of the same BG's where's in PvE you have variation when going down that path, where in PvP you do not.
    And such a grind would be required for the simple reason to not damage the whole PvE metagame they find important.

    So don't get me wrong but it seems your feelings towards simply the notion of PvP stats is making you come up with alternatives that are actually making you shoot yourself in the foot.
  14. Sabre070

    Sabre070 Cupcake-About-Town

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    If there are enough variations of gear and you don't just have to get 10k points to get each piece then I'm fine with it. What I don't like is PvP "progression" that is just play until you get enough points to get a piece, then play some more.

    If they had random drops on different tokens associated with different stats or something then it could be really cool and fun progression. If not then it's just going to feel like I have to play for ages to get the best gear, then I can be competitive - not saying this is how it will be, since I actually think from what has been said about stat normalization that gear isn't going to make any difference, just that it is how it will feel to me.

    An example of what I mean by tokens - they could have it you get awarded them at the end of each match, on player kill and/or by completing objectives. They could also have it so that if you PvP in a certain battleground you have a higher chance of getting one stat over another and if you kill players with certain stats it affects what stat tokens you get.

    Just one of the possible ways that would liven the PvP progression (and make it something they should actually have) for me.
  15. Virtual On

    Virtual On Cupcake

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    I love PvP, my second MMO ever was Warhammer Online. PvP stats only exist to separate PvE and PvP. How does PvP Stats prevent PvPers from having to grind? Higher PvP stats would, presumably, be given on higher PvP gear.

    So how does that deter the grind? PvP people still want progression, this is an MMO after all.

    You would have an option to raid. If you want to min/max, get the right item budgets, and such, I think you should want to participate in both aspects. If you want to get that slight edge, that is, but doing just PvE or just PvP is still 100% viable and leaving you 100% competitive, leaving the winner up to skill.

    It directly says they are using the rallying system for ranked, too.

    Did it make it so the PvE trinkets and weapons were just unwanted, or not viable/competitive?

    It was not like that for Tera, Warhammer, or Aion, which are the major PvP games I have played.


    I agree, I said it's very tough to do in the post. It's something that needs to be tried, though. It's hard to get a time/effort basis when you have luck playing a factor, or when not everyone can complete said content in the same time. You can extrapolate statistical values, though, and make an estimation. You can implement random "luck" drops from players, like WAR had, or even implement a ranking up system like the system in LoL. Where once you reach a certain point, you have a series of 3-5 matches that you have to win 2/3 or 3/5 to progress to the next ranking. Something different needs to be done, and either making it a simple gear/point grind, or completely separating PvE/PvP content is wrong.

    It would if they just use the traditional point-grind.

    In PvE, in the end, you don't have variation. You go to the same instance for X drop, which only comes from Y boss. Either that, or if there's a token system you grind X/Y/Z dungeon for tokens. PvP is no different in the end, but I will agree that while leveling up it is very skewed in favor of PvE variety since there will, no doubt, be a limited number of instanced PvP maps/types.

    The simple reason is to allow co-mingling of gear to allow greater customization of your character, while also alleviating the grind needed to compete in either if you enjoy both. If I put in 400 hours of playtime, I want to compete at the same level with anyone else that uses their time as I do.

    I'd rather have an alternative than a pointless rank grind so I can simply compete. I am really tired of having to be X rank to even have a chance, or grind up 3million+ abyss points, or spend millions upon millions of gold re-rolling equips to make sure they have the right PvP stats.

    I like PvE. I like PvP. Don't make me do twice the grind to compete in both, that's actually why I stopped PvPing in Rift. If you weren't rank 8, you were trash and there was literally no way you could compete with someone who was. Heavens forbid you even wore one piece of PvE gear, you'd instantly lose 10% damage mitigation and 10% damage. Oh, and if you were in Rank 1-6 gear? You were still fodder. Ranks 7-8 were the endgame gear, for PvP, and they were leagues above everything else.

    And then, on that point of Rift, as I said they need to find a balance, because it was stupid. When rank 8 gear came out, about the time a raid instance called Hammerknell came out, rank 8 gear had the statistical equivalent to the first few bosses of the raid on it. If you were a guild going for world firsts, you were required to have it. Period. It was much faster to just grind out points, going in Warfront after Warfront, to get the gear than it was to get it in the raid. Part of this was because of a 7-day lockout, and part of it was RNG.

    I hated it.

    There needs to be a system in place that alleviates this issue, for both sides, while allowing both sides to co-mingle.

    Why would anyone who PvPs not want more of a population to compete with? That's the essence of PvP. Trying to prove, through skill, that you're better than other people. Why would you not want that chance against MORE people?
  16. Sabre070

    Sabre070 Cupcake-About-Town

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    Another thought about the rallying system: If someone is in level 1 gear do they get rallied up to the same gear levels based off of stat distribution? So they'd have an insane amount of what ever stat is on that piece of gear (since each piece of gear normally only has +1 to one stat in early levels).

    I could see this being used to just stack health so that someone can pick up the flag with multitudes more health as the next person, meaning that it'll be super easy to for him to get the flag back to base.
  17. AcidBaron

    AcidBaron "That" Cupcake

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    It strikes me as odd you found Warhammer an amusing PvP game considering how much gear did to make the completely noncompetitive and unfriendly to anyone getting into the latest tier later on.
    How does it deter grind? Fairly simple. Instead of following down the footsteps of all previous mistakes taken in Warhammer, rift (what for some reason adopted the broken system from warhammer) and stacking all PvP tiers on top of each other. You only have two PvP tiers.
    One is the starter one (crafted) or the older one. The second is the newest one. The previous ones become obsolete or bypassed As the currency requirement gets changed on them or they become craftable. Constantly keeping the gap close.
    To create a competitive environment on all levels in the PvP meta game, We need to eliminate the issue of power creep taking place, power creep prevents people or discourages people from wanting to participate in PvP as they know they are not on equal footing simply by being so far behind the curve. Again Warhammer and Rift being prime examples of this.
    The challenge in this system where only two tiers exist is keeping PvPers something to work for a goal, that's where rankings come in, much like in this game with ranked arenas, battlegroups and what not. In addition to that to keep control on "powercreep" items extra earned in that tier are novelty items, better looking items of the same stats unlocked by a certain rating you acquired.
    But the pro's outweigh the cons as it's easy for everyone to get into, it only takes a few days to get on a competitive gear level for PvP, compared to weeks and months in other games. You're not defenseless or an easy kill due to the crafted gear helping you out and when up against those geared in the most recent set you still have more than a fighting chance.
    It made the trinkets unwanted as they were inferior to the ones very easy obtainable by doing a few pvp matches, they are of course viable but as stated two posts ago the entire notion is that the PvP'er by PvPing gains an edge from gear in their meta game, they can ofcourse still use their PvP gear in dungeons and even raids but ofcourse you would get more out of your character by using PvE gear, vice versa goes aswel

    Therefor the gear is mixed and can be combined But for competitive and high end play you would prefer the most optimal setup, I managed to outdps people in PvP gear in raids. So player skill still plays the biggest factor but of equal skill the person with the right meta game gear setup would gain an edge.
    It's a matter of balance
    By telling me the games you have played, it does make sense why you would have created such an disliking of the system, just remember there are many iterations and while people don't like to hear this often, this is one of the things personally WoW does rather well, as of recent i have to add before that it was also a headache.
    They are now even going so far in making it so that they are baking in the defensive stat on characters while removing it on gear but still allowing it to enhanced by item upgrades, to make it even easier for people to get into the PvP meta game. While only keeping the offensive stat on actual gear pieces as an incentive to gear for them.


    This creates an odd balance, as neither sets are unwanted for the other meta game yet they aren't wanted enough to completely remove the "carrot" factor from their respective meta game.
    Hopefully this explains now the difference in why i do see it as a great solution, all a matter of how developers deal with it in their game.
  18. Virtual On

    Virtual On Cupcake

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    I know I didn't say this, but when I'm speaking of WAR I mean of my fondest memories. About the first year, pre-LotD which is when I first quit.

    The gear imbalances(aka sovereign, and later on the RR90/100 stupid stuff) didn't exist.
  19. Virtual On

    Virtual On Cupcake

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    I 100% agree on the power-creep factor. It's something that drives away new players very, very fast.

    The issue is, just like PvE, people who PvP also want character progression. They want to see their character grow as they put more hours in. They want their hours to matter.

    This is something GW2 tried to do, and one of the reasons that the instanced PvP kind of fizzled out. There's no real incentive to PvP if you can't progress your character at all*.

    *This is not my direct opinion, but as a direction from a general consumer. People want their character to either be stronger, or feel stronger. They want an attachment to their character.

    Being at the top of the game in only a few days is bad for business and the longevity of the game. While it's a nice feature, it only serves the instant gratification. I think they're doing the right thing by having you always be on a competitive level in your tier.


    And how easy were the PvE trinkets to get? From your 2 posts, it looks like they made a quick band-aid fix and didn't fix the real problem.

    I can agree with this, but it all is in their hands as to how they implement it. I'm compromising, because for optimal, top-end, min/max, I would like to see people have to commit to both types of gameplay. Say, you need PvP shoulders legs and helm, but PvE arms boots for optimal, min/max play. You could still be competitive with either set, though. Say, maybe a modest 3-5% increase in any task you want to perform.

    As I said, I will compromise and agree that a "good" system would be one where they are slightly better in their respectful areas, but not so over-bearing that it makes either/or un-viable.
  20. Virtual On

    Virtual On Cupcake

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    Before anyone reads my 2 posts, and says "Hypocrite!", I will post this.

    Specifically regarding:
    The difference in power compared to having R7/8 gear and not, and maybe only have 1-2 drops from the starter bosses of HK, was phenomenal. Only HK gear could compete(and not all of it), so if you were a PvE'er and only had gear from GSB/Death/Stone instances, you were vastly underpowered in comparison.

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