Discussion in 'WildStar Classes & Paths' started by mr. bob, Nov 29, 2012.
about 35% of all Charrs in GW1 were Mesmers though and they weren't a playable race however.
Yep, TSW's system was pretty much awesome for speccing/class building. In any MMO nowadays at least, I'd like to see multiple saved specs, even if the building isn't largely freeform like TSW has. Even if you can't change more than say 2 out in the wild, it would be a huge quality of life boon to have the ability to save extras to swap in at towns, even. Rift did this pretty well, but they only offered 4 initially, before upping to five, then six, etc... and as a Mage there, it was never enough .
Re: race/class combos, I too like having there be some limits... makes for better flavor for each class, and a more cohesive visual style for each.
I'm in the minority I suppose, but I absolutely HATE dual spec options. Hate it. I quit Rift over the fact that there was no player individuality at end game. You could be just about anything at a moment's notice. I have a hardcore, achievement oriented personality, and it's extremely important to me....to be important and relatively unique. Gear only goes so far. I want to play a class with a specific role, I want to feel unique and useful, and I don't want other people able to spec into that role willy-nilly. I want my reputation to be built and known server-wide based on my ability, and for my character to fill a unique niche.
I wouldn't go as far as to say that DUAL spec removes that. Systems like Rift's and TSW's do for sure, but not DS. You're still limited to two roles. And on my WoW server, even once DS was in place, the best in any category were known server wide, particularly heals and tanks of course, but there were noteworthy deeps too.
The cream does and will pretty much always rise to the top... having an "oddball" spec isn't going to make you well-known or unique, being a good player who knows his stuff will. As far as not wanting people to be able to do the same thing as you conveniently, that's where the whole skill thing comes into play.... it doesn't matter if someone has the same build and gear loadout as you if they can't perform regardless, and that's where you rise (if you have what it takes).
I tend to play mostly as dps or dps-healer types in MMO's as my "natural" role, and have been pretty well-known even in that (relatively) less visible and overcrowded role on the servers/games I've played in. I've done tanking and healing, which tend to bring easier notoriety, as well of course, but my preferred role is doing dps, and like Wolverine... being "the best there is at what I do". Sometimes that means abnormal specs, sometimes it means similar to the standard, but it's not the build that typically sets a person apart.
I hear you, but that's not entirely what I wanted to convey. I'm an older Everquest 1 guy, and I only play a tank or a healer in MMOs. I do it because those are the most important roles. I like being important to the success or failure of whatever I'm doing. These two classes give me that if the game is built correctly. And for going that route, which is usually the route less traveled by casuals because non-dps classes can't solo and can be harder to level up, I am more sought after for group play and raids.
In EQ, and even in WoW the first few years, there were not many tanks and there were not many healers. People loved dedicated tanks and healers. Loved them. You had more online friends and group options than you could shake a stick at. When I logged in on EQ1, I was bombarded with tells to come group. As WoW aged, it became more casual and that dichotomy went away. Games like Rift annihilated any feeling of uniqueness and achievement by allowing everyone to do any role at any time. Even SWTOR, which was at least more restrictive than Rift, allowed too many classes to simply respec to healing or tanking for a given raid or even group. There was no class individuality, there was little renown.
I'm not so much seeking the uniqueness of being a particular class or build, but more along the lines of being in a small fraternity of MMO players that have chosen the route of dedicated healer or tank, foregoing the easier DPS option. I like knowing all the top tanks and healers on the server. I'm from an era of MMO gaming where there weren't "builds" and gear was unbelievably hard to find. You either made a tank knowing the challenges in store for you, or you did not. There's none of that commitment now because of dual spec and re-specing. The entire genre has been casualized to appeal to the ADD of younger generations.
And that's a shame to me. I think MMO's got it right in the beginning and it's all gone downhill since as this emphasis on casual play and accessibility has taken over the industry. What started out as a creation of love based on MUDs, has turned into a money grab.
This game at least is bringing back 40 man raids. I remember 100 man raids from EQ. I tanked Emperor on some of those. Best memories of my gaming life, which is pretty extensive. I'm holding out hope this game also gives us back class individuality when they say they are appealing to the hardcore fanbase. I'm fine with Tanks or Healers having a DPS build option they can choose to take. I like that. It's just that once they choose that route, I don't want them to be able to change it as they feel like it. I'm fine with re-spec's within a given route (tank v. dps), but not completely respec'ing your role (route).
I am on my phone at the moment but I agree, ideally at least with your post. Unfortunately it is what it is now. I started mmo gaming with eq1, as a teen, so I know where you're coming from. I still do think that within communities (high end players, or a server, etc) that good tanks or healers or whatnot become well known, and hopefully with wildstar some gear will indeed be truly rare again to help set dedicated players apart more readily. I used to run in and sometimes lead 100 person master level raids when toa was new in daoc. I am ecstatic to see at least 40 man raids here, to say the least... 8-10 people was a single group in daoc, not a raid like most games now....
Yep, we're on the same page. I just really appreciated in EQ1 and even Vanilla WoW, how it wasn't just the gear though that made you stand out and be unique, it was also your race, class, and combo thereof. I mean warriors weren't overly abundant, and Ogre warriors with their unique non-stun racial was awesome. With the huge racial experience penalties in EQ1, not many people went Troll or Ogre. So that was unique. And then not many people wanted to be warrior or cleric, or specifically SK, so the class was unique. The two together at end game was extremely unique, and then if you had elite raiding gear, you were like the only one on the server and people were in awe every time they saw your character. Warcraft did that a little bit with its dwarf priest, you were a king in early WoW MC raiding if you had the racial Fear Ward. And there weren't a ton of priests in early WoW either. But never to the awesome degree that EQ did it.
That's kind of what I miss. I like when games make a "hard" class/race combo that turns away casuals. And I love games with specific racial abilities that actually matter. Those types of concepts are being taken away in favor of accessibility and balance. I hate both of those words.
We'll see what WildStar does. I'm not anticipating a return to glory of original EQ with updated mechanics and graphics, which is what I want, but I do anticipate a return to early WoW with updated mechanics and graphics, which would be the next best thing. After hearing a little bit more about EQ3, I'm turned off by the direction they are going, so I'm thinking WildStar is going to be the best game for me for quite awhile. I have high hopes.
We actually had a human priest in our raid who re-rolled as a dwarf priest just for Fear Ward. We would all help him level up on downtime. Kind of funny how that was fun, back then... And nowadays players would throw up their arms if they heard a race got something as useful as that.
We haven't heard anything about racial powers or bonuses or abilities in WildStar... Wondering if they even have them. I hope so, actually.
But anyway, as far as dual spec-ing goes, I'm not sure it's possible to go without it in his genre and have a successful game. Granted, I do enjoy specializing and then relaying on others, but WildStar is tailoring it's end game towards players who don't even raid nor want to (as well as those of us that do!) Solo players are important to them, and the ability to dual spec is very important to someone who plays solo a lot.
And as for being "known" on a server as the best in your class, well, they will have leaderboards for various things I suppose. I tend to base my friendships around people I enjoy being around regardless of how well or not they play the game, though.
The problem isn't that one race gets something useful or fun; the problem is when one race gets something game-breakingly powerful that becomes a basic requirement and others are denied something comparable. The fact that your guildmate felt it necessary to dump a character and start over on the same class indicates a problem.
Say I've got a great idea for a Night Elf Priestess. I love the character so much that I'm willing to level the hard way, solo, in vanilla WoW. I get to max level and want to raid. I know the class backwards and forwards, but the guild is currently working on Magmadar. So, given the choice, would you rather take a great NE Priestess with her almighty Starshards, or a competent Dwarf Priest with Fear Ward? No brainer.
Heck, take it up to TBC level and the Alliance gets a new race with Symbol of Hope and Fear Ward both. Horde thinks maybe they'll finally get this one ability which all content seems designed around, since there's at least one boss per dungeon (not raid, DUNGEON) that fears. Nope, they get CONSUME MAGIC. Wow, I'll totally reroll for that!
Leveling as a healer doesn't prove you have skill or "dedication;" all it proves is that you have a guild/leveling companion or are a masochist. I met the best healer I ever saw in Shadowfang Keep when it was a hard dungeon. We invited her along for Blackfathom, 3 wings of Scarlet Monastery, and Zul'Farrak. After the ZF run, she asked for a hand in Jintha'Alor (vanilla; it was full of elites), so we said sure. Halfway up, I turned around and saw her in Shadow Body. Before that moment, I would have sworn up, down and sideways that she was Holy; she was just that good.
Likewise, the best tank I ever met was Arms spec throughout vanilla. He took us through BRD when the idea of AoE tanking involved tab-Sunder and stance-dancing for Thunderclap.
A good player is a good player, regardless of spec, race, or class.
Yup, exactly. As I said, I tend to build my friends list around the personalities and people I like hanging out with, not what they are playing.
From the recent vids it looks like there's multiple action sets you can save each comprising of up to 10 skills for the limited action set + up to 5 milestones (may or may not be passive only abilities).
The demo allowed people to swap/save at will (out of combat).
While I admit to having a certain nostalgic fondness for scenarios like Mat'hir Uth Gan mentions (where good tanks/healers were well known and in demand on servers) I also look at the benefits dual/multi spec options can bring which is allowing players (especially those not in 'niche roles') an easier time attempting content (or alternate content types ie PvP, group, solo) as well as allowing designers greater flexibility in content design (things like raid/group composition are no longer a hindrance to design, solo content benefits from the same lower restrictions albeit to a lesser extent).
Plus with dual/multi spec each player is given the choice whether to use the system - if you don't wish to change your role then don't. If people are forcing you into that then you should probably look to find people of a similar mindset to yourself (to use the Rift example I knew people who only healed or only tanked or only dps'd in Rift and it suited the guild fine).
The 'path of least resistance' arguement is a bit of a phallacy as essentially what people who use it are saying is 'play my way or don't play'.
Given the option to play with people who choose that playstyle or players who are forced into it - which would be the smart choice? Seems a no-brainer to me.
You love to raid. You can join one of 2 raids:
Raid 1: A group of players who love to raid just like you and choose to do so.
Raid 2: A group of PvP players who are forced to raid because the system gives them no choice.
I'm pretty sure raid 1 would be the more pleasant experience for someone who enjoys to raid.
That carries across to people who love to roleplay, love same server communities, pretty much any area you can think of. It will usually be better doing it with people who are there by choice, as they will share your interest/passion for that area/content/playstyle. That's why the 'path of least resistance' argument always makes me shake my head in amazement (it's almost like people enjoy a <REDACTED> experience or something ).
Oops, off topic rambling there - I'll go get my coffee.
Sorry, I just realized it might have looked like I was slamming you. I wasn't, but the scenario you mentioned illustrated my point perfectly. I like the idea of racials in the abstract, but they can be so hard to balance in practice. Orc and Troll racials in WoW vanilla were pretty nice, but not overpoweringly so (Blood Frenzy and Berserking). Dwarf and Night Elf racials (Stone Form and Shadowmeld) were nearly worthless, except when they were completely, insanely overpowered (Moroes, and in PvP "where did that Warrior come from?!?!").
If we can avoid one race/class combo being so insanely useful that it wallpapers everyone else, then yeah, I'd love some racial differentiation. I just don't see how it can be done unless it's merely cosmetic or watered down to the point of uselessness.
Mmhm, I agree. My story was really just reminiscing about how it used to be and how for some strange reason we found it fun back then sometimes to do weird things that today we'd never be ok with doing because we'd consider the game broken, grindy or both.
It's why I feel the OP's request for dual spec is something today's games kind if need to have. Although in Wildstar, I'm hoping for more of a "deck change" on the fly sort of feature, that allows me to switch from tanking to DPS or from healing to DPS whenever I'm not in combat or some such.
What little I've heard from devs and videos so far makes me think it'll be more like deck changing, which would make me happy IF its well supported in terms of UI (see TSW for how NOT to do it; love the game and the decks; hate how hard it is to manage decks & gear in that game).
I know I'm another in the minority, but I'd actually like chosen spec to matter. So as a main spec healer, I may be able to switch out my spells/actions for deeps or tank, but not be able to actually fully switch my spec to something completely different. This makes me proficient enough to help in a different role during a raid without switching me out entirely, to dps while out farming, to tank a 5-man — but still makes me a primary healer, unable to 100% match the abilities of a main spec tank or main spec dps.
Some flexibility for raids is nice, but the recent raiding trend of everyone being able to switch into an equally strong role really got everything feeling too homogenized for me, and the only players that became valued were chameleons who can play everything well. I like the raid synergy of a mix of folks who are really solid at their main spec, interspersed with others who do well at everything.
Good and challenging PVE content cannot exist without the trinity.
Look at GW2. No trinity and the difficulty of the PVE content is retard-proof. Hah! You won't be seeing any known PVE guild bragging about downing bosses in GW2.
Please no. Please.NO.Dualspec.
I'm with Malisent here. I still play WoW and everytime I see "Looking for a DPS AND Heal shaman both gears gearscore 500" etc. I could puke.
If there's dualspecc, people expect you to have both and have gear for both etc.
And even if you're in a guild with chill dudes, people will still be like "Dude, switch on DPS for that boss, we only need 7 healers" even though you hate doing damage, or you hardly get gear or or or.
And usually, as I do enjoy switching in this regard, I will play a tank Warrior and I'd like to MAIN a tank warrior. I have no interest in dual specc and I won't pick one.
Even though it is a very useful feature and I'd grant it to the people who like it, I probably wouldn't like it. Wouldn't kill my experience with the game, but whatever.
Sorry but these issues that bother you are far less numerous than the issues that pop up when dual specs are NOT available in the game.
I see no point in pissing off a lot of players just because a few people are upset about being asked to have 2 specs in a pve raid.