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Dps, Heals, Tank

Discussion in 'WildStar Classes & Paths' started by mr. bob, Nov 29, 2012.

  1. Yakzan

    Yakzan "That" Cupcake

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    About the whole multi-spec debate: It really depends on the amount of permanency the designer wants to go for. For a game like Wildstar, I feel that a multi-spec system is pretty much required. However, I love permanent choices, at least ones that are difficult to change, have a really strong impact in some of the games they're in. Those games would be DAoC, Shadowbane, and the potentially upcoming Camelot Unchained.

    It just really depends on the game. Wildstar is a much more freeform style of design so there is minimal permanency, so multi-spec would be to its advantage. For other, you could call 'hardcore', games, permanency is something that game wants to drive in and the audience for those games appreciate it. I love both systems as long as they're done well.
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  2. Chomag

    Chomag Cupcake-About-Town

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    Thing is in all MMOs, the PVE spec and the PVP spec, even if based on the same build (dps, healing) are never the same, as talents will differ. The PVP spec will not be optimal for PVE and viceversa, and people will have to have 2 almost identical specs just with several different talents. Not having the optimal spec for the role will cause one to have lower performance or, worse, get told to piss off by the raid leader.

    Which leads us to problem. Not having dual specs in the game means that people who would like to focus on the purpose of pvp as well as pve will be forced to pay very high respec costs as well as rearrange their actionbars every time they respec, which is no minor nuisance when you're doing it a couple of times every day.

    Ofcourse, not having dual specs affects very little the people who focus on only one aspect of the game, as they are almost never required to respec once they found their cookie cutter build.

    Also, all members of pro pve guilds change several times during a single raid in order to achieve optimum efficiency. If Wildstar is to attract these people, the required tools must be provided.

    As I said, at the end of the day, not having dual specs will upset a lot more people than having it.
  3. Malorak

    Malorak Cupcake-About-Town

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    Was about personal opinions, right?
    Never said it's unlikely and I said I would grant it to the people, but I rather not have it.
  4. Mat'hir Uth Gan

    Mat'hir Uth Gan Cupcake-About-Town

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    Good counter-arguments, but I still think Dual-Spec destroys the long term playability of a game. If you can't identify, and be identified, with your character, there's no emotional attachment. As someone else mentioned, a chameleon is a good metaphor. Nobody knows a chameleon and as a chameleon you don't get attached to your character because you have no set attributes or role. You're just a toon in a game doing whatever is needed to advance at that particular moment. It's a casual concept in every possible way. And casual concepts have destroyed MMOs in my opinion.

    EQ2 has some of the best PvP I've seen. And there is no dual spec. The tanks treat players like enemies, their taunts force attacks, they can position and move players where they want them. They are just a massive annoyance in PvP, and it's glorious. And because of that dynamic, healers are effective in PvP because people can't just target them, the tanks taunt them off. And that's glorious. And you're rewarded for your tanking and your healing, it's not just about a DPS burn.

    The entire point of Dual-Spec is to basically allow every class the chance to DPS at any time. And to me, that's either a single player game, or it's a broken MMO. Why base the genre around the Holy Trinity, if you're making that entire concept trivial? It only matters on raids or dungeons? So, an MMO is now largely a solo experience where every player can face roll any content by switching to the proper spec at a moment's notice? It's no wonder people burn through these games and quit when they consume the content. When did this ridiculous concept take over the industry? And it's obvious it has.

    Catering to casual as well as anti-social players is killing this genre. They need to start differentiating an MMO from a single player RPG that allows grouping and raiding. You should be able to harvest solo, craft solo, build your house solo, seek out collectibles solo, explore solo, and farm materials solo. I do not feel you should be able to level effectively solo or even have a "solo experience" built into the game. Why is a "solo experience" required in an MMO? What idiot came up with that ass backwards concept?

    A social game should force social grouping. To advance. Period.

    And if you take away all the solo quests and the solo content, now you don't need Dual Spec. You just need friends. And then you can have your set roles. And the Holy Trinity concept is alive and well.

    Everquest 1 did an MMO right. You had to group to advance. You had to be social to achieve the slightest success or gear. And they made every class and race decision so specialized and important, that you always brought something unique to every group you joined. Every healer was different, every tank was different, every DPS was different, and then the racials mattered. And the gear, which you could not get without lots of friends, would make or break you. You couldn't even play that game without a guild or friends. And that's why people remember it 15 years later.

    These current games where you can farm gear solo in PvP or PvE eradicate the entire concept of what an MMO set out to be. A collection of friends having to play together collectively to achieve any success.

    And for someone like me, that enjoys challenge, is patient and doesn't have to rush to consume content, and enjoys the social aspect of bringing something unique to the group while having to rely on other unique traits from other individuals, just to advance my character, I'm left disappointed as each next big MMO comes and falls short of expectations. The reason is because none of these games have any idea as to what made early MMOs successful and special. They just keep churning out single player games in an online world as they try to appeal to the least common denominator.
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  5. moneda

    moneda Cupcake-About-Town

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    I kinda sorta agree with your overall point, Mat'hir Uth Gan, but I have my doubts about how popular [and therefore how massively multiplayer] such an MMO would be.
  6. Batzorig

    Batzorig Cupcake-About-Town

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    I understand your argument about characters needing to have certain permanent traits in order to identify with them (though I don't agree, but that's a different matter), but I don't see the connection between dual-spec and an end to socialization. In fact, I would argue dual-spec emphasizes socialization more.

    If I'm a tank, and can only be a tank, I have reduced the number of people I can interact with. If my friend is leveling/gearing a tank and wants to do a dungeon run to practice or get some loot he needs, I'm of zero use. I can give him pointers, but I can't actually do the social thing of joining up and helping. If I'm looking for a guild, I have no flexibility, and if they already have their tank slots filled, I am literally without use to them. If there are a lot of tanks on the server, I may be of very little use to anybody.

    I think it may be fair to say that while dual-spec can lower the minimum number of people you NEED to know to get by ("We need dps, I'll switch specs" instead of finding a new DPS friend), it increases the number of people you can beneficially interact with (Oh, you guys need DPS? I'll tag along, lemme switch specs). In my mind, single-spec is about niche, while dual-spec is about adaptability, and I think adaptability has a broader social use, while having a niche fits you tightly in one place, and doesn't allow for increased socialization.
  7. Chomag

    Chomag Cupcake-About-Town

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    I find it hilarious how people can defend lack of options, lack of freedom. It's like someone telling you that you are not allowed to be anything else than a bus driver cause and you should only be able to get jobs as a bus driver, otherwise you become too confusing for the society as it doesn't know where to place you.

    <Mod Monocle> Political commentary removed. Please do not bring politics into the discussion. </Mod Monocle>
  8. Mat'hir Uth Gan

    Mat'hir Uth Gan Cupcake-About-Town

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    It would probably have a similar playerbase to EVE Online, and of course, all the players still on both Everquest games. But those players would be there for the long haul. That's what those games have proven is that MMO players remain in these games to stay with their friends and with the characters they have poored countless hours into and connected with. Most Asian MMO games are the same way. So, it's possible the numbers would be massive if the game appealed to the Asian markets like WoW did.

    It's a fair point though. It's much more risky than making a game for the current casual marketplace.
  9. moneda

    moneda Cupcake-About-Town

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    Y'know... hyperbole can quickly become absurdity if it isn't watched very carefully.
  10. Mat'hir Uth Gan

    Mat'hir Uth Gan Cupcake-About-Town

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    It's an interesting rebuttal. And it bleeds into the character individuality I discussed earlier in this thread. However, I agree with the point you're making in terms of adding to socialization *if* it worked like that. More often than not in the current MMO age, Dual Spec just means a player has the option and ability to solo. And it seems 9/10 times, players will take the solo option over the "hassle" of trying to be social and making new connections.

    In a dungeon setting, or raid setting, I believe you are correct. Unfortunately, most dungeons and raids are ignored by the majority of a playerbase since it requires grouping. This is because people are anti-social unless forced to see that it's easy and fun to meet new friends. Giving the Dual-Spec option gives them an out, they aren't forced, and now they can go solo and just forego the dungeon. They'll play until cap, and then when all the content except raiding and dungeons are done, they'll quit and say the game lacked content. It's happened in every game for the last 5-6 years it seems. The answer Devs have come up with for this is Dungeon and Raid Finders. Those don't work because they pull from cross server, and foster a "Hello, Goodbye, occasional Ninja with no reprecussion" dynamic.

    Also, if the Holy Trinity is in effect, the reality of most groups is 1 dedicated Healer, 1 dedicated Tank, 1 dedicated DPS, 1 Offtank, and 1 Offhealer. The latter two focusing on using DPS abilities with an eye on picking up any slack. That's unless the content is faceroll. It's my opinion that no dungeon or group content should ever be safe enough to require just 1 tank and just 1 healer. That's not challenging enough. There's no risk. You should need the offtank, you should need a second healing class. In this scenario your friend would be a welcome member of the group. You two could trade off main tanking, or one of you could just focus on damage abilities inbetween offtanks.

    The main issue is finding groups though. The more that people can solo, which Dual Spec does foster, the less likely you'll have people wanting to run a dungeon.

    I'd like to see DPS classes not be able to solo because they can't take hits. I'd like to see tanks not be able to solo because they kill too slowly. I'd like to see healers not be able to solo because do too little damage. If that was the case, people would have to group to advance. And to me, that's an MMO.
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  11. Batzorig

    Batzorig Cupcake-About-Town

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    Ah ha, I see what you're saying. You're right that dual-spec allows people to solo more quickly and less painfully than if they were stuck into a role that was bad at soloing, and that that in turn means they will choose to do so if they can (for those of the solo mindset at least).

    In that case, I think it just comes down to opinion on whether or not solo content of any sort in an MMO is bad, and I think we will be forever in disagreement about that. With the level of information that Carbine has put out about solo content being available at end game, it sounds like they are welcoming of a solo mind-set, though that doesn't make your preferences and wishes any less valid.
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  12. Mat'hir Uth Gan

    Mat'hir Uth Gan Cupcake-About-Town

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    </Mod Monocle> Reference to removed content removed. </Mod Monocle>

    First, the player gets to pick their class. If the Developers have done a good job, there's a wide range of choices with lots of different flavors. Again, see Everquest. You want to just take hits and whack things, be a warrior. You want to tank and cast damage spells, be a shadow knight. You want to tank and buff/heal, be a Paladin. You want to blow things up, be a wizard. You want to do damage through pets and spells, choose a Necro or Magician. You want to have pets and heal/buff, choose Beastlord. You want to just do massive melee DPS, be a rogue if you like staring at butts, be a Berserker or monk if you don't. Want ranged physical DPS, be a Ranger. Do you want to heal, be a cleric. Do you want to heal and nuke, be a druid. Do you want to heal, buff, and debuff, be a shaman. And then of course your racial choices add further dynamics.

    Unfortunately, WildStar is not going to have the choices and depth Everquest had back in 1998. Most games don't for some incredibly dumb reason.

    Second, the player gets to allot their points (like EQ) and choose to specify in a DPS or non-DPS role as any class. They also get to choose their path.

    Third, if the player decides they don't like their class, they can always re-roll and enjoy the game again. Apparently the Devs in WildStar have put a lot of thought into replayability.

    I'm not asking anyone to be forced into any decision. I'm asking that the decisions in the game be important and permanent. It will make the gaming experience better and will foster a better community. If this game becomes just another solo game with optional raiding/grouping, it will be added to the current pile off MMOs and people will move on to the next newest thing three months after release.

    I've had this discussion in Rift, SWTOR, and GW2. All very good games, all have nothing that makes you want to play them for 10 years.
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  13. lukulius

    lukulius New Cupcake

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    I discovered Wildstar fairly recently and started reading up on all the info out there. Haven't yet decided whether I'm going to play it. The most important factor for me would be the freedom as far as roles are concerned. I've been spoiled by TSW and I now don't see any point in playing any game that restricts my choices. I want to be able to tank, heal and dps, with 4-5 different specs for each role. That's what makes a game fun for me and what keeps me around.

    I'm not going to try and prove that one system is better than the other. I realize that people see their characters in different ways and have different tastes. This is really for the developer to decide which playerbase they want to target.
  14. Sneakybuffalo

    Sneakybuffalo Cupcake-About-Town

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    Each class is restricted to two roles, DPS/X, unless you consider support a role, then maybe 3 roles each. Atm, no class can both Tank and Heal.

    However, within each class you have the ability to customize what abilities and loadouts you have similar to TSW
  15. lusciifi

    lusciifi Cupcake-About-Town

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    What i miss about EQ2's class design was that because there was no such thing as a class that could spec into more then one role all classes could still do some dps. It was a huge shock to me when i went to rift and saw max level tanks barely doing 200dps compared to the 1k+ of pure dps.

    In eq2 if you were a SK or a Zerker and you weren't tanking at the time it wasn't uncommon to see your dps within 30% of the T1 dps classes. Same was true with healers, if you played a warden and were doing easier content allowing you to focus some of your time on dps you could actually put up some good numbers. Now granted if you were actually tanking/focusing on heals your dps would be much lower, but it allowed everyone to contribute to killing things in a meaningful way.

    Without the ability for tanks/healers to do solid dps i do think that dual specs are a good thing. I'm sorry but i don't care how social you are, sometimes some alone time playing by yourself is a nice break.

    A couple other notes on class design. I agree playing a tank in a game where you can force-taunt players in pvp sounds like a good idea for the tank. For the players on the other side however the mechanic can quickly become anti-fun, especially if you are playing a healer. Tor had a good compromise for me where if you were taunted you could still attack anybody, but if you hit anybody but the tank your attacks would do half damage. EQ2 pvp also had the problem of healers simply being too strong. A good warden/inqusitor could solo heal a player through 6 people trying to burst him, and as a dps/tank it was pretty much impossible to kill a healer 1v1 or even 1v2.

    I would also like to see tanking become hard again. A tank should have to be as good as the dps they are trying to hold aggro off of. In eq2 you knew the good tanks because not only did they know how to use their defensive CD's at the best time but also could keep aggro through your burst combo. In rift i laugh at the thought of any dps stealing aggro after the first 5sec.
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  16. InnocentCivilian

    InnocentCivilian "That" Cupcake

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    My memory's failing me, but I remember a dev saying as recently as last month's PAX (I think) that the classes tend to have 'two or more' builds. I also forget where I heard it, but I recall reading one of the devs saying that the with its range of defensive buffs and stuff, the Esper could almost play as a tank.

    But that said, Wildstar IS still a game with very unique classes. That comes with the tradeoff with them not being to fulfil every role in a party as well as another class would.

    I do hope that you'll still enjoy Wildstar though, Lukulius! ;) I hope that despite the classes maybe not being what you prefer, you'll still enjoy Wildstar for what it is. I'm sure that there'll be plenty that you WILL enjoy. ^___^
  17. mockingfox

    mockingfox Cupcake

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    I'm with WildZhen on this one, what Blizzard did to WoW's talent system (essentially spading the dog) killed the game for me. Dumbing down the system didn't do anyone any favors, and while i understand that Blizzard was is trying to gather more new players they did it at the cost of depth.
    This is the worst mistake a developer could ever make.

    Cutting out any amount of depth from your game will result in consequences! Specifically from your loyal fan base, true they may not leave immediatly or in large numbers but reducing the amount of depth from your game is never a good idea. I understand avoiding complicated or cryptic mechanics and systems in a genre that will live or die depending on it being played by as many people as possible, but it is also a genre that will live or die depending on it being played for as long as possible. The reduction of depth from your game just means that there is less to do/less game in general, which means that people will not/wont play your game as long because there just is not enough things to do.

    I believe the wildstar team knows this, after all they are packing there game with content for all sorts of MMO players so i trust they understand the value's explained above. What I am not sure of is there commitment to deep AND varying character builds with multiple feasible choices as opposed to just cookie cutter optimized builds. Having my very own character build, usually a multitree build, that wasnt simply inferior to the top build for the class was one of the most satisfying things about WoW for me and as they slowly changed the talent system WoW got less and less enjoyable consistantly so.

    If they fear of alienating players with a large screen and many choices with to many numbers that needs to be planed out. There is nothing wrong with having a reccomended build (like a tutorial option that can be turned off) like LoL with reccomended items. This would serve to allow more casual players to build there talent tree on cruise control (although I am convinved that they will learn the system quickly as it should offer many options for their playstyle)

    Tl Dr Talent systems arent complicated and dont need to be simple, they add good depth to gameplay. Depth is the lifeblood of MMO's. Wildstar should have a deep talent system
  18. mockingfox

    mockingfox Cupcake

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    I could not have said this better myself: however i have something to add.
    MMO's are not popular (or well mabye they are, but we dont like them) you reading this probably dont like MMO's, Wildstar isnt even an MMO.

    its a MMORPG and this makes the difference. People want to play an RPG with other people in a persistant world, and they want there RPG's how they like there RPG's. MMORPG's survive on the RPG playerbase not the MMO playerbase. We all talk about wildstars CLASSES and TALENTS and RACES and GEAR and CRAFTING and ZONES and FACTIONS. These are all elements of RPG's which is why we are here.

    People dont like casual RPG's, or rather they dont sell very well in my knowledge (pokemon is casual but then again the amount of depth to pokemon warrent the argument that it is hardcore) Trying to sell a casual RPG in the guise of an MMO is only going to get you the casual audience, you know the ones that buy 1$ games every day because they like to try new things. And once they have played through your "multiplayer game" alone they will move on, and WildStar will die. Nobody here wants this idc how "casual" you claim you want the game to be or how you think you know how a MMORPG should be, you dont want Wildstar to be just another mistake like SWTOR was.

    Figured I'd bring this fact to the front so it can get some light.

    TL DR Wildstar isnt an MMO, its an MMORPG. RPG arent casual and MMORPG's shouldnt be casual either. when the developers forget this fact there games die... quickly, because they attract a casual audience that doesnt dedicate to there game once they have used up the surface content.
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  19. MeakGG

    MeakGG Cupcake-About-Town

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    The idea of not having Dual Spec is completely foreign to me. I played wow from the start, and back then... for a LONG TIME at least, you were stuck with the role your gear supported, only respeccing for certain abilities. Never for a different build.

    I've been a fan of Dual Spec for a LONG TIME, but Mat'hir'd ideas and views behind have TOTALLY turned my world upside down. I'm all for no dual spec, and I completely agree that eliminating it could easily bring you closer to your character! I'm excited to see how Carbine tackles this
    Mat'hir Uth Gan likes this.
  20. Agon

    Agon Cupcake

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    In the WoW i remember you could always respec for gold, granted it got more expensive each time you did it and it wasn't easy to farm gold back then.

    Imho it's like Yakzan already said, in some games it does actually make sense to not be able to respec and stuff but in Wildstar i just dont feel like it fits. Other than that im pretty sure the audience of gamers that enjoys quality of life features like dual spec is a lot bigger than the fans of a system that is more RPG oriented and locks your choices forever. For hardcore raiders it's pretty important to fill different rolls when an encounter requires it as well and since carbine caters their raidcontent for them it wouldn't make sense to lock specs forcing them to roll 2 chars early.
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